Very Disturbing: Honor Killing of Virgin

so what happens to the family honor if a man loses his virginity before marriage (or has extra-marital relations) ?


(obviously this is primarily rhetorical, but i'm still interested in hearing the answer).

m
coarse, thick 3a
modified cg







I've also read that it's common to punish a man who has committed a crime by imprisoning or even killing a female relative who has done absolutely nothing wrong. Makes my blood boil.
Originally Posted by SuZen
Raping a wife or female relative is also used as a punishment for males. There are many sickening stories about innocent women being gangraped for things their male relatives may or may not have done.
OMG, LOOK!!

...It's a siggie.
so what happens to the family honor if a man loses his virginity before marriage (or has extra-marital relations) ?


(obviously this is primarily rhetorical, but i'm still interested in hearing the answer).

m
Originally Posted by mayim
I've been told by women whose countries of origin have a tradition of honor killings (though their families certainly didn't practice it) that the men are also *expected* to be killed, but usually are not found out. And if they are, they're given an excuse. The first part happens because men don't have hymens and can't get pregnant, and the second is of course the virulently misogynistic patriarchal system.
Are you asking about the "punishment" or what happens to the family honor?

If it's about the "family honor" and the man isn't married, I don't think much really happens to the "family honor." The problem occurs when this man wants to get married, where some people don't mind, some people do. He would probably only dream of marrying a rich girl from a high class family if he had that kind of reputation though, nontheless, he probably will marry, except not his dream girl, which of course is a beautiful virgin from a high class family.

I'm not really sure what happens to the "family honor" if he's married and is cheating on his wife, but I'm sure that the consequences of this will be much more serious. Anyway, if he's married and sleeping with another woman, he's supposed to be stoned to death (In Islam, there are only 3 cases where a person's punishment is death: If he/she kills, if he/she converts, or if he/she sleeps with someone else while married), so either way, he should be dead.
Shouldn't there be a price for taking a woman's virginity outside of marriage? Shouldn't he in fact lose his life for taking a family's honor?
Better everyone think your a fool, than to open your mouth and prove them right.

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Do you actually think they'll leave the man alone if they find out that he slept with his daughter/sister/wife..etc?

There have been many real stories where the family finds out and they do murder the guy, but they usually don't go parading around saying who they slept with.

ETA: I don't know if any of you misunderstood, but nor the woman nor the man should be killed if they aren't married, so just as much as the girl shouldn't be killed,same goes for the guy. I also wanted to add that any girl who does this really is stupid because she knows what kind of society she lives in and what harsh consequences she'll face, and that the person who slept with her is probably boasting to his friends rather than getting attacked by his family.
Shouldn't there be a price for taking a woman's virginity outside of marriage? Shouldn't he in fact lose his life for taking a family's honor?
Originally Posted by three rivers curly
Having sex outside marriage is VERY big deal.

For premarital or extra-marital sex, the punishment for both males and females is actually the same. (public flogging for premarital, and death for extra-marital).

But people are hypocrites and this doesn't happen....so the burden is upon the women (unfortunately and this is very wrong).

Amongst the families I know in the US: if its either a male or female, that person is frowned upon and will have a VERY difficult (if not impossible) time getting married.
Do you actually think they'll leave the man alone if they find out that he slept with his daughter/sister/wife..etc?

There have been many real stories where the family finds out and they do murder the guy, but they usually don't go parading around saying who they slept with.
Originally Posted by sarasara
Ditto.
Shouldn't there be a price for taking a woman's virginity outside of marriage? Shouldn't he in fact lose his life for taking a family's honor?
I know that because you're a female, therefore you're defending the female, but...The way you're talking sounds as if the woman is stupid and doesn't know what consequences she'll face if she willingly slep with a man. If this woman knows how to have sex, then she also knows that his family won't do much to him if they found out. She has not been raped, she willingly agreed to sleeping with him, so IMO, she's to blame for destroying her own "family honor".

He's responsible for his family honor, not her's. He didn't rape her.

ETA:
For premarital or extra-marital sex, the punishment for both males and females is actually the same. (public flogging for premarital, and death for extra-marital).
Thanks for adding that. I wanted to explain that but only know how to say it in Arabic (the "flogging" )
Shouldn't there be a price for taking a woman's virginity outside of marriage? Shouldn't he in fact lose his life for taking a family's honor?
I know that because you're a female, therefore you're defending the female, but...The way you're talking sounds as if the woman is stupid and doesn't know what consequences she'll face if she willingly slep with a man. If this woman knows how to have sex, then she also knows that his family won't do much to him if they found out. She has not been raped, she willingly agreed to sleeping with him, so IMO, she's to blame for destroying her own "family honor".

He's responsible for his family honor, not her's. He didn't rape her.
Originally Posted by sarasara
Isn't it true that under Islamic law a rape victim must produce several Muslim male witnesses to the act in order for it to be considered rape? Otherwise, it's just extramarital sex. Surely no man who wants to rape a woman is stupid enough to do it in front of witnesses.
To Trenell, MizKerri and geeky:
I pray none of you ever has to live in a communist state.

Geeky is my hero. She's the true badass. The badass who doesn't even need to be a badass. There aren't enough O's in cool to describe her.
Isn't it true that under Islamic law a rape victim must produce several Muslim male witnesses to the act in order for it to be considered rape? Otherwise, it's just extramarital sex. Surely no man who wants to rape a woman is stupid enough to do it in front of witnesses.
Originally Posted by geeky
I *believe* to prove any sexual relations outside marriage, witnesses must be produced (doesn't have to be male witnesses).

But I am not sure how its done in cases of rape.
Here's a link with the history of honor killings:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honour_killing#History

It is really hard to understand these way of thinking here in a free and progressive social culture but apparently it's not so foreign in most places in the world. It's wierd to me too that even people here in the states have that kind of mentality. I have an Indian friend who was actually born here but raised in India(she's not Muslim btw) and came back here when she was 10 or so but raised by a conservative family. She is in an abusive(very bad) relationship with a guy that she has been dating for less than a year. The only reason she doesn't want to leave him is because he is the first guy she slept with and she actually said to me that she doesn't think that anyone else would ever love her because she is not a virgin. I really did not know what to say at that point. She has a very backwards mentality but luckily she is young and she is openminded so she does listen to what I say but it is hard to change that mentality when you are raised a certain way. The whole way of thinking is wierd to me and honestly I've never been exposed to it until I met her and I am Muslim and my parents are religious. And a lot of these attitudes and practices that happen in muslim countries are very unislamic and have been rooted in the culture probably before Islam existed.
Geeky, you're mssing the point. I'm talking about a woman who has sex willingly with someone who is not her husband.

Like Kate mentioned, you need witnesses for any kind of sex that happens between married people. And they don't need to be male either. I'm not sure how many witnesses for rape victims.
Geeky, you're mssing the point. I'm talking about a woman who has sex willingly with someone who is not her husband.
Originally Posted by sarasara
I got the point that you were talking about women who had sex willingly.

My point was that if it is almost impossible to prove that you were raped, then many rape victims also legally fall into the "having sex willingly" category, even though in reality they were anything but willing.
To Trenell, MizKerri and geeky:
I pray none of you ever has to live in a communist state.

Geeky is my hero. She's the true badass. The badass who doesn't even need to be a badass. There aren't enough O's in cool to describe her.
But it's also "almost impossible" as you say to prove that you had sex willingly, since you need 4 witnesses for that, and as opposed to what happens in the US, in the ME sex is usually only between 2 people. No one else is invited to "watch" or "participate".

We're still not that "advanced" yet.
But it's also "almost impossible" as you say to prove that you had sex willingly, since you need 4 witnesses for that, and as opposed to what happens in the US, in the ME sex is usually only between 2 people. No one else is invited to "watch" or "participate".
Originally Posted by sarasara
Sara, what do you think most Americans' sex lives are like?

But it's also "almost impossible" as you say to prove that you had sex willingly, since you need 4 witnesses for that, and as opposed to what happens in the US, in the ME sex is usually only between 2 people. No one else is invited to "watch" or "participate".
Originally Posted by sarasara
Sara, what do you think most Americans' sex lives are like?
Originally Posted by iris427
I think maybe she means that its kept very hush hush and only those two people involved 'know', whereas in the US people freely share that they're dating/have SO.
But it's also "almost impossible" as you say to prove that you had sex willingly, since you need 4 witnesses for that, and as opposed to what happens in the US, in the ME sex is usually only between 2 people. No one else is invited to "watch" or "participate".

We're still not that "advanced" yet.

If that were true, then women's reputations and marriage prospects wouldn't be so destroyed for pre-marital sex.

Human sexuality is probably no different in the ME than it is in America. You just don't see the ME version on the internet.
I hope I didn't sound rude, but, that's the way I see it.

I haven't been around American people to tell you how I think it is, but, from the way you portray yourselves in movies..etc, I can tell you that I feel it's very differnt here.

I have never heard of more than 2 people having sex here

I have never heard of people having gay/lesbian sex just to try it, curious ...etc

Your average, boring sex without marriage is here, yo put it simply.
I haven't been around American people to tell you how I think it is, but, from the way you portray yourselves in movies..etc, I can tell you that I feel it's very differnt here.

I have never heard of more than 2 people having sex here

I have never heard of people having gay/lesbian sex just to try it, curious ...etc

Your average, boring sex without marriage is here, yo put it simply.
Originally Posted by sarasara
Please don't judge us by our movies. If people were really living like the movies, no one would bother paying to see the movies.
To Trenell, MizKerri and geeky:
I pray none of you ever has to live in a communist state.

Geeky is my hero. She's the true badass. The badass who doesn't even need to be a badass. There aren't enough O's in cool to describe her.

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