Very Disturbing: Honor Killing of Virgin

You mean most American/European women. I dont think they are suprised by the men doing it. The protrayal I have of the eastern culture is that men are 'sluts' but it's okay
Josephine, if you consider only the ME culture to think it's ok for men to be "sluts", I would like to know if there is an actual English word which is equivalent to a "male slut". If there isn't, and I really don't know if there is or isn't, then I can't say that the American culture is better.

Didn't you say that you had a Chinese grandparent?
Peppy, my grandfather's Lebanese but I don't wear really short miniskirts, and tight revealing tops.

ETA: Amnersi, what I meant is that threesomes are not such a big deal in the US, that they're portrayed in movies.

In Kuwait, when people in the cenima watch a Kuwaiti movie, where a Kuwaiti man and a Kuwaiti woman are holding hands on screen, a lot of people will wonder how the father of the actress let his daughter appear onscreen in front of all these people holding hands with this stranger. Kissing is out of the question. I'm sure many people have never heard of a thing called a "threesome"".I only knew what a threesome was last year btw, and it wasn't from a ME source.
You mean most American/European women. I dont think they are suprised by the men doing it. The protrayal I have of the eastern culture is that men are 'sluts' but it's okay
Josephine, if you consider only the ME culture to think it's ok for men to be "sluts", I would like to know if there is an actual English word which is equivalent to a "male slut". If there isn't, and I really don't know if there is or isn't, then I can't say that the American culture is better.

Didn't you say that you had a Chinese grandparent?
Peppy, my grandfather's Lebanese but I don't wear really short miniskirts, and tight revealing tops.
Originally Posted by sarasara
Sarasara, the Chinese grandparent comment was directed at me, because in the past I have mentioned my Chinese great-grandfather, but today I said I wasn't Asian, which I am not.
Get used to me. Black, confident, cocky; my name, not yours; my religion, not yours; my goals, my own; get used to me. -Muhammad Ali











I can't post the links here, but I just did a google search for "middle eastern porn" and got quite an eyeful. I don't think the USA owns the market on immorality.
Originally Posted by RedCatWaves
I could be wrong, but I think that's actually American porn with some Middle-eastern looking woman.
Originally Posted by Springcurl


I think that's the case. When I was over there, we could sometimes bribe the lcoals with the American men's porn stash when the locals didn't have any. It did help when you needed something fixed and no one wanted to work on it.
Kiva! Microfinance works.

Med/Coarse, porous curly.
Sarasara, the Chinese grandparent comment was directed at me, because in the past I have mentioned my Chinese great-grandfather, but today I said I wasn't Asian, which I am not
I know, I just found it strange that Peppy thought having a Chinese great grandparent had anything to do with your beliefs.
I think that's the case. When I was over there, we could sometimes bribe the lcoals with the American men's porn stash when the locals didn't have any. It did help when you needed something fixed and no one wanted to work on it.
Which country is that?
I think that's the case. When I was over there, we could sometimes bribe the lcoals with the American men's porn stash when the locals didn't have any. It did help when you needed something fixed and no one wanted to work on it.
Which country is that?
Originally Posted by sarasara
It was both in Kuwait and Bahrain. If the local guys thought that they could get porn or booze out of doing something for the military people, some of them would do it. it's not like you can just run down to the nearest adult bookstore in Kuwait.

You would see it more around American holidays since booze and porn would be smuggled in the mail more often at those times. Vodka with food coloring in the mouthwash bottle was popular. Oh, and the boxed bacon that was sumggled in the mail for those who wanted a pork fix.

No one really checked our mail that hard obviously.
Kiva! Microfinance works.

Med/Coarse, porous curly.
sarasara, what do the people in your religion say about the honor killings? Do they talk about them in the context of the prophets and the good books? I know the prophets taught that God gives people time to seek forgiveness. Doesn't an honor killing keep a person from getting right with God? Therefore, isn't God angry with the killers?
This is fascinating to read, I don't understand it all but it's very thought provoking. Thank you sarasara for being open, human behavior towards sexuality is always interesting.

Trust me my Dad wasn't happy, he kept going on about the family honor. He about killed me when I said what honor? As far as my lifestyle it isn't nearly as exciting as people think. I'm even shocked at things I see.

There is always censorship towards sexuality in any region.
You mean most American/European women. I dont think they are suprised by the men doing it. The protrayal I have of the eastern culture is that men are 'sluts' but it's okay
Josephine, if you consider only the ME culture to think it's ok for men to be "sluts", I would like to know if there is an actual English word which is equivalent to a "male slut". If there isn't, and I really don't know if there is or isn't, then I can't say that the American culture is better.
Originally Posted by sarasara
No I didnt say ME, but in general eastern cultures to me have more of the double standards. In general though, there is always a double standard with women, including the U.S. In fact i cant imagine there not being one anywhere, thats just the way it is. Women will always be judged more than men. But the american culture(and this is just my opinion) has socially evolved more to the point where its more acceptable for women to be equal which a lot of people might say 'act like men'. There is not word for a male slut which is why I put the word slut in quotes and I use the term loosely or jokingly. I really don't like that term at all, I think it is outdated and offensive. I like the term promiscuous for someone who sleeps around a lot and I don't judge people who are unless they are hurting other people(usually chronic cheaters). And just because Americans talk about it more openly doesn't make it any worse than others who keep it hush hush and lie about things. Actions speak louder than words.
sarasara, what do the people in your religion say about the honor killings? Do they talk about them in the context of the prophets and the good books? I know the prophets taught that God gives people time to seek forgiveness. Doesn't an honor killing keep a person from getting right with God? Therefore, isn't God angry with the killers?
Originally Posted by Xyz
'Honor Killings' are definitely unIslamic. I think it's more of a cultural thing. I'm pretty sure it happens in India too(which is primarily Hindu).
Sarasara, I hope you don't feel like you have to stand by yourself defending your religion and culture. It's just that it's an issue that isn't discussed in-depth, except for the worst parts (like the details of a particular case). So yes, it is something we're ignorant about.

I'd like to mention, though, that probably most people in the US would think twice about sleeping with/marrying someone who's had a threesome. It's generally stigmatized, not celebrated. I suppose it does take something that extreme to titillate or shock, but...that's because most people would actually find that somewhat shocking. To be honest, I've never seen a movie that depicted a threesome. What the heck are you watching?

I know a lot of posters are focusing on the threesome thing, but I guess I just wanted to comment on it, too.
Sarasara, I hope you don't feel like you have to stand by yourself defending your religion and culture. It's just that it's an issue that isn't discussed in-depth, except for the worst parts (like the details of a particular case). So yes, it is something we're ignorant about.

I'd like to mention, though, that probably most people in the US would think twice about sleeping with/marrying someone who's had a threesome. It's generally stigmatized, not celebrated. I suppose it does take something that extreme to titillate or shock, but...that's because most people would actually find that somewhat shocking. To be honest, I've never seen a movie that depicted a threesome. What the heck are you watching?

I know a lot of posters are focusing on the threesome thing, but I guess I just wanted to comment on it, too.
Originally Posted by Eilonwy
Sara, I just wanted to echo this--thanks for all your insight and putting up with our questions! I really appreciate hearing your point of view.

Sarasara, I hope you don't feel like you have to stand by yourself defending your religion and culture. It's just that it's an issue that isn't discussed in-depth, except for the worst parts (like the details of a particular case). So yes, it is something we're ignorant about.

I'd like to mention, though, that probably most people in the US would think twice about sleeping with/marrying someone who's had a threesome. It's generally stigmatized, not celebrated. I suppose it does take something that extreme to titillate or shock, but...that's because most people would actually find that somewhat shocking. To be honest, I've never seen a movie that depicted a threesome. What the heck are you watching?

I know a lot of posters are focusing on the threesome thing, but I guess I just wanted to comment on it, too.
Originally Posted by Eilonwy
Sara, I just wanted to echo this--thanks for all your insight and putting up with our questions! I really appreciate hearing your point of view.
Originally Posted by iris427
Me too.
To Trenell, MizKerri and geeky:
I pray none of you ever has to live in a communist state.

Geeky is my hero. She's the true badass. The badass who doesn't even need to be a badass. There aren't enough O's in cool to describe her.
Most Americans/Europeans have had multiple sexual partners outside of marriage, which I think is very to Middle Eastern or Asian peoples.

Edited b/c I can't spell
Originally Posted by KateRoberts
It's kind of to me too, especially when people talk openly about it, and I'm not Middle Eastern or Asian, so I can definitely see where they are coming from!

I think that other parts of the world definitely have promiscuity and so on too, but the difference is they don't talk about it or seem to take "pride" in it as much - it's still seen as somewhat shameful.
Originally Posted by Amneris
Didn't you say that you had a Chinese grandparent?
Originally Posted by Peppy
My mama does, but I don't think that multiracial nitpicking has anything to do with this discussion and FYI, having a Chinese great-grandfather doesn't make me Asian - I am not from the Asian continent and I am not culturally or ethnically identified with an Asian country or recognized as such by other Asians. And I have never said that I am.
Originally Posted by Amneris
Simmah down! I wasn't nitpicking. I just thought I remembered and asian grandparent. Not important and not a big deal. Just curious. Geez.
This is fascinating to read, I don't understand it all but it's very thought provoking.
Originally Posted by hayseedlady
Have you ever considered taking a cultural studies or relations class? It's very interesting.

It helped me open my eyes even further than what a semi-culturally diverse military life has done.

sarasara, what do the people in your religion say about the honor killings? Do they talk about them in the context of the prophets and the good books? I know the prophets taught that God gives people time to seek forgiveness. Doesn't an honor killing keep a person from getting right with God? Therefore, isn't God angry with the killers?
Just like this article was published and many people were shocked about it, these articles come up in newspapers, magazines...etc, and many people are also shocked. Like Josephine said, It's unislamic, there are only 3 reasons for a punishment to be death, and pre marital sex isn't the reason for this. That means that the person who should really be killed (in Islam) is the father who killed his daughter.

As for extra marital sex, a person is supposed to be killed for a punishment, but not by the husband/father..etc. Death is expected for any male and female who has extramarital sex, and only the authorities are the ones who're supposed to do this punishment. And that is only if there are witnesses. No witnesses, then the man who said his wife slept with another man and didn't get 4 witnesses gets "flogged" 80 times for ruining his wife's reputation.

ETA:
This is fascinating to read, I don't understand it all but it's very thought provoking. Thank you sarasara for being open, human behavior towards sexuality is always interesting.
What parts did you not understand? I really don't mind explaining, I'd rather explain than have people thinking false impressions on us

After all, Geeky thought we needed only male witnesses to prove that people had pre/extramarital sex, and RedCatWaves was stating before very matter-of-factly that Kuwaiti women can't vote after they've got these rights a year ago.

So no, I wasn't bothered by the questions, but I'm just bothered by people who have no idea about our religion/culture and are judging it.

This article about honor killing made it to the American media, but did the media also show that there is almost a civil war going on right now in Lebanon, that there were over 700 Iraqis killed in only 2 months, that over 1000 Lebanese civilians were killed in the 33 day Hezballah/Israeli war...etc

Seems to me that the less important are shown, especially the ones who make the Muslims and Arabs sound like crazy people. Not that the civil wars don't make us sound like crazy people though...
Unfortunately sarasara, just as many people from the ME only see the negative side of the US, many of us have only seen the negative side of the ME as well. Thank you for taking the time to shed a new light.
Better everyone think your a fool, than to open your mouth and prove them right.

Perception is not reality.

http://public.fotki.com/hmiklos
Three rivers curly, what makes me more angry than people in the US only seeing the negative side of the ME, is that they don't see the negative side of themselves.

Many people had a fit over some of the Islamic/ME laws, thoughts, beliefs...etc

Many thought Islam/ME society was not giving a woman her rights and treating her with less respect than the way a man is treated.

Yet I (and many in the ME also) feel that women in the US/West are also disrespected, only in different ways.

I've actually seen a naked woman in an ad promoting chewing gum. (dont think its in the US though).And how about all these women in bikinis in ads promoting things like an AC or a car.

I feel that is degrading to women. It's like women are only things. Like they're only something to look at, to enjoy looking at. It's like she isn't a person who can think, is smart, is powerful...etc

She's just a sex thing that men enjoy looking at. An example of this are the Playboy magazines.


Yet you don't find anything wrong with that, because you feel that the woman is getting more respect by being allowed to be naked or semi naked in public (here im not talking street-wise, more magazine/tv wise) because it shows that she has freedom. Well, I don't view that as freedom really, more of thinking of a woman as a thing that can be bought.

I'm stating this to show you that although many people in the ME consider this to be wrong, some people in the US don't want to think of why we do think that way. I'm trying to point out that somethings some American people do which are considered "everyda˙" or "normal" are just as surprising to us as "honor killing" is to you(Not neccessarily the bikini/playboy example).

Now you'll tell me that not everyone thinks that way but I can assure you that not everyone here agrees/does "honor killing" either.

ETA: Aren't working women in the US also payed less than men even if they're doing the same work?

[/i]
Three rivers curly, what makes me more angry than people in the US only seeing the negative side of the ME, is that they don't see the negative side of themselves.
Originally Posted by sarasara
I think that is a completely unfair and in some ways, false statement. You have certain perceptions about women in the US. People in the ME do things differently - that does not make anyone right or wrong. If you would like us to keep an open mind about your culture, you need to extend the same courtesy. Not everyone in the US agrees with the way things are done here. However, people make choices and live their lives accordingly.

As far as women being degraded - this is a sensitive issue. I don't think that someone who is making a conscious choice can be degraded. No one is forcing these women to pose in a bikini.
Better everyone think your a fool, than to open your mouth and prove them right.

Perception is not reality.

http://public.fotki.com/hmiklos

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