Very Disturbing: Honor Killing of Virgin

Three rivers curly, what I meant was that people here don't look at the negative things they're doing.

Doesn't have to be women in bikinis because that's an opinion.

What I meant was, some people here see us as terrorists, but they don't see themselves as stereotyping.

Some people are saying that only male witnesses are considered as "real" in Islam, when in fact both male and female witnesses are "real witnesses". And I'm not sure about who said this, but I'm pretty sure that if someone Christian though that this is accurate, they would counter me on this. Yet, isn't it that a woman isn't allowed to speak in church or something?

A lot of people here gave harsh opinions on the way you think of Islam/ME. I don't think it's wrong for me to state my opinion on a naked woman promoting chewing gum if you (not you in particular) stated your opinion on my religion.
"And I'm not sure about who said this, but I'm pretty sure that if someone Christian though that this is accurate, they would counter me on this. Yet, isn't it that a woman isn't allowed to speak in church or something?"

1 Corinthians 14:33-35 states, "...As in all the congregations of the saints, women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church."



"Yet you don't find anything wrong with that, because you feel that the woman is getting more respect by being allowed to be naked or semi naked in public"

A lot of Americans find a lot wrong with that. I do. Certainly no one in their right mind sees this as liberation or a form of respect.



"This article about honor killing made it to the American media, but did the media also show that there is almost a civil war going on right now in Lebanon, that there were over 700 Iraqis killed in only 2 months, that over 1000 Lebanese civilians were killed in the 33 day Hezballah/Israeli war...etc "

Yes, these were/are actually reported extensively. Anyway, I don't at all see honor killings as something that either characterizes or is exclusive to the Middle East and predominantly Islamic cultures. Unfortunately, it's a topic that creates sensationalist interest and sells newspapers.
Are you sure that they were really reported the way they really are?

I'm sure people in the US knew that there was a Hezballah/israeli war, but, according to my aunt who lives in America and is married to an American Christian man, no one even knew about these 1000 Lebanese civilians, all these bombings..etc. And same goes to the rest of those political issues.

ETA: I was rereading the posts and noticed something interesting. Geeky asked me if a guy who had sex should be murdered, since he would be ruining the girl’s family honor, but no one thought that a woman should be killed for destroying a man’s reputation.

There are cases like that, believe it or not, where a woman ruins the man’s reputation.

He could, for example, be having extra-marital sex, which wouldn’t be too good for his “honor”.

Yet, I wouldn’t imagine the man’s family members hunting down the woman so that they would kill her and return the man’s “family honor”, as opposed to when a woman sleeps with a man, in which all her family members would just love to get their hands on the guy she slept with (there have been true stories in which men are killed by family members of the girl the man slept with).

So now don’t you feel bad for the men because they get killed if they ruin a women’s reputation, whereas a woman doesn’t get killed for ruining his.

You see, now that I think about it, the people who kill their daughter for family honor probably would kill their sons for the same reason. But the guy know better than to talk about it if he comes from such a family, and the girl he slept with would only be too glad that her he shut up about it.

What I meant was, some people here see us as terrorists, but they don't see themselves as stereotyping.
Originally Posted by sarasara
I think that is human nature. People think all Americans are rich, obese, slobs who sit around in mansions. That is a false perception. Some people think all French women are thin and stylish.

Stereotyping happens to everyone around the world. That is why discussions like this are so important. It is fine to have opinions, but when they cloud reality it becomes a problem (general - not directed at you).
Better everyone think your a fool, than to open your mouth and prove them right.

Perception is not reality.

http://public.fotki.com/hmiklos
Aren't working women in the US also payed less than men even if they're doing the same work?
I don't know if anyone thought I was stating this or asking, but I really don't know. Is it true?
I think I've read that in general, a woman will make about 76 cents for every dollar a man makes, doing the same kind of work.
http://unpavedpath.blogspot.com/
Are you sure that they were really reported the way they really are?

I'm sure people in the US knew that there was a Hezballah/israeli war, but, according to my aunt who lives in America and is married to an American Christian man, no one even knew about these 1000 Lebanese civilians, all these bombings..etc. And same goes to the rest of those political issues.
Originally Posted by sarasara
Well, I've read about those things. I'm sure that they're reported from a different angle, but that's local vs. international news.

And yes, women tend to get paid less than men, even though this is illegal. I don't know how much this is related to not as many women having prestigious jobs as men do.

Anyway, we're all aware that there is institutionalized sexism in the US.
I'm sorry, but I don't really equate pay scale to human life or rights.
Better everyone think your a fool, than to open your mouth and prove them right.

Perception is not reality.

http://public.fotki.com/hmiklos
Sarasara, I think you're trying to show that Westerners aren't self-critical, but we are. No one has said that sexism doesn't exist in the US or Europe.

I haven't read through this whole thread. If there are people on here who have said that honor killings represent Middle Eastern and Islamic culture, despite all the evidence to the contrary; then they are wrong, and you're not going to change their minds.
I'm sorry, but I don't really equate pay scale to human life or rights.
No, it doesn't equate to human life. But it is a right.
"honor killing" isn't a common practice. It makes headlines here too.

Why am I saying this? Well, when I read this:
I think I've read that in general, a woman will make about 76 cents for every dollar a man makes, doing the same kind of work.
I remembered RedCatWaves. She, and many others, where all appalled with some aspects of our society, and seemed to want to change it. Why are some people not starting with themselves instead of others?

RedCatWaves, did you go on a strike or do what you told me you think Kuwiti women should do when they want to divorce?

This, btw, is what I meant that some people don't see the negative side in them. How come you aren't making a huge deal about this as much as the marriage/divorce thread did.

After all, the Arab societies that you feel aren't giving women their rights are paying women the same as men. You either didn't know that or didn't care about that, because in the US women aren't payed equally, and therefore this is not a big deal. Because the US says so.

Excuse me for being rude, but I know that the if "paying women more than men" existed in ME, but did not exist in the US, you would see it as a very closed minded, stupid, racist thing. But three rivers curly just told me that it is not of her human rights to be payed the same amount that a man that a man pays. Had I said that, i would have been "stoned to death".

Again, sorry for being rude. this time I couldn't help it.
Aren't working women in the US also payed less than men even if they're doing the same work?
I don't know if anyone thought I was stating this or asking, but I really don't know. Is it true?
Originally Posted by sarasara
Yes, it's true. Part of it has to do with women's nature though. We're not as aggressive as men and ask or expect as much as men. Employers know that so they will offer less to a woman thinking she'd be more likely to go for it. It's definitely not perfect here.
Three rivers curly, what makes me more angry than people in the US only seeing the negative side of the ME, is that they don't see the negative side of themselves.
Originally Posted by sarasara

As far as women being degraded - this is a sensitive issue. I don't think that someone who is making a conscious choice can be degraded. No one is forcing these women to pose in a bikini.
Originally Posted by three rivers curly
This is a sensitive issue and I know what sarasara is talking about here. My personal experience with men has been that overall Muslim men(who are not american) have usually been more respectful of women than the American men I've been around. I personally think women here are respected much less and judged more than most people would like to think BUT I respect and love the fact that women here have more choices and can decide their own fate and there is still a small(yes, small) percentage of men who are non judgemental towards women and there are laws that protect obvious discrimination against women.
Three rivers curly, what makes me more angry than people in the US only seeing the negative side of the ME, is that they don't see the negative side of themselves.
Originally Posted by sarasara

As far as women being degraded - this is a sensitive issue. I don't think that someone who is making a conscious choice can be degraded. No one is forcing these women to pose in a bikini.
Originally Posted by three rivers curly
This is a sensitive issue and I know what sarasara is talking about here. My personal experience with men has been that overall Muslim men(who are not american) have usually been more respectful of women than the American men I've been around. I personally think women here are respected much less and judged more than most people would like to think BUT I respect and love the fact that women here have more choices and can decide their own fate and there is still a small(yes, small) percentage of men who are non judgemental towards women and there are laws that protect obvious discrimination against women.
Originally Posted by Josephine
Oddly enough, my experience has been about the opposite of that. It just goes to show that YMMV.
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Med/Coarse, porous curly.
Oddly enough, my experience has been about the opposite of that. It just goes to show that YMMV
Maybe both of you define respect differently?

I have to say, it depends on which culture you're in, not only Islam, because in Islam women are supposed to be treated with respect.

But most of the Muslim countries are in the ME. Even before Islam, when people used to worship (what do you call them?- stones in the shapes of people?), women were disrespected.

When Islam came into that area, it told the people to change a lot of the ways they treated women, but I guess these old habits die hard, since you are saying they did not treat you with respect. Maybe you have been to very strict regions (Saudi Arabia), or maybe you have been to places where mostly Beduins are. And I can assure you, Beduins are very rough, aggressive, don't treat women properly...etc. But I dont worry about them because they are in their own "region" and I'm in mine.

Or it could be some gestures which are only supposed to be respectful in our culture but maybe foreigners don't find them like that because they feel it makes women seem less powerful.

Our American teacher in HS was telling us about the time she went to a bank and stood in a loooooong line. She noticed though that the women wouldn't stand in line. They would skip the line and get their work done while the men waited. She was the only woman waiting in line, and all the men in front of her would tell her to go in front of them. She didn't know that this was somewhat a sign of "courtsey" and they were supposed to wait for the women.

[/i]
"(what do you call them?- stones in the shapes of people?)"

Do you mean idols?


Also, things like letting women cut ahead in line are known as chivalry in western tradition.
Three rivers curly, what makes me more angry than people in the US only seeing the negative side of the ME, is that they don't see the negative side of themselves.
Originally Posted by sarasara

As far as women being degraded - this is a sensitive issue. I don't think that someone who is making a conscious choice can be degraded. No one is forcing these women to pose in a bikini.
Originally Posted by three rivers curly
This is a sensitive issue and I know what sarasara is talking about here. My personal experience with men has been that overall Muslim men(who are not american) have usually been more respectful of women than the American men I've been around. I personally think women here are respected much less and judged more than most people would like to think BUT I respect and love the fact that women here have more choices and can decide their own fate and there is still a small(yes, small) percentage of men who are non judgemental towards women and there are laws that protect obvious discrimination against women.
Originally Posted by Josephine
Oddly enough, my experience has been about the opposite of that. It just goes to show that YMMV.
Originally Posted by redcelticcurls
Sorry, stupid question, what's YMMV?? But yes, I can definitely see that, just depends on the type of people you're around.

And as sarasara has said, if you look in the history books, Islam gave women a lot of rights that they did not have before. You can't compare womens' rights in the ME or any eastern country to women's rights here because the cultures are too different. The culture and government here are not dominated by religion at all. If it was, it may be worse for all we know. Eastern cultures in general give women less rights than here(not muslim cultures only, but I'm sure you(in general) know this). I would bet the muslim women have more rights than nonmuslims in the same region(ex hindu women and muslim women - there has been an ongoing debate about that one). I think because of our interest in oil in the middle east there is always going to be more of a focus and stereotype of Muslims as opposed to other groups of people doing the same or worse thing.
The other day I was talking to a guy in my class- was European I think- and IMO he acted very rude. Actually, he kind of acted like he was afraid of me or something. He would kind of move away from me when I would talk to him. I’m not used to talking to people with the kind of distance he kept, and I tried to make the “size of the space” in between us “smaller”, which was kind of weird, because I felt like I was following him, and I have never followed a man before. You sort of get used to it being the other way around. This was particularly strange nothing like this ever happened, neither with males nor females.

Anyway, I came across this:

Personal Space – personal space is respected in the UK. People speak to each other at a distance and touching is kept to a minimum. However in the Middle East this is the opposite. Once should be prepared to be held, touched, felt and kissed! Recoiling from such behaviour would make one seem cold.

http://www.kwintessential.co.uk/cult...ure-clash.html

And I hope that it’s true and that the real reason was because I smelled of the cafeteria food.


Redcelticcurls, could you tell me what kind of experiences you had?

Also, things like letting women cut ahead in line are known as chivalry in western tradition.
It depends on the tradition. I really don't mind the men here having the "Ladies first" mentality though.
The other day I was talking to a guy in my class- was European I think- and IMO he acted very rude. Actually, he kind of acted like he was afraid of me or something. He would kind of move away from me when I would talk to him. I’m not used to talking to people with the kind of distance he kept, and I tried to make the “size of the space” in between us “smaller”, which was kind of weird, because I felt like I was following him, and I have never followed a man before. You sort of get used to it being the other way around. This was particularly strange nothing like this ever happened, neither with males nor females.

Anyway, I came across this:

Personal Space – personal space is respected in the UK. People speak to each other at a distance and touching is kept to a minimum. However in the Middle East this is the opposite. Once should be prepared to be held, touched, felt and kissed! Recoiling from such behaviour would make one seem cold.

http://www.kwintessential.co.uk/cult...ure-clash.html

And I hope that it’s true and that the real reason was because I smelled of the cafeteria food.


Redcelticcurls, could you tell me what kind of experiences you had?

Also, things like letting women cut ahead in line are known as chivalry in western tradition.
It depends on the tradition. I really don't mind the men here having the "Ladies first" mentality though.
Originally Posted by sarasara
Yup, there are big differences in how much personal space is acceptable, based on the culture you're in. This is known as kinesics. Here's a website on it: http://stephan.dahl.at/nonverbal/kinesics.html There are unconscious signals that people in a culture use to react to strangers, friends, and crowds. For example, Latin Americans tend to take up much more space when they walk (bigger steps and such) then the French.

People often misinterpret these differences negatively. New Yorkers talk louder and faster than other Americans, and so they have a reputation for being impolite. People from the American South and Midwest talk slower, so they're stereotypically thought of as less intelligent. Traditionally in many Asian cultures, eye contact is avoided as a sign of respect. But Westerners believe that making eye contact is respectful.

As you wrote, Americans and many Europeans prefer a lot more "personal space" than those in many Arab countries do. An invasion of this personal space feels very uncomfortable, sort of like if the person were actually touching you. Sitting "too close" to someone when there's lots of space available could be seen as aggressive flirting, or even a means of intimidating someone.
I remembered RedCatWaves. She, and many others, where all appalled with some aspects of our society, and seemed to want to change it. Why are some people not starting with themselves instead of others?

RedCatWaves, did you go on a strike or do what you told me you think Kuwiti women should do when they want to divorce?

This, btw, is what I meant that some people don't see the negative side in them. How come you aren't making a huge deal about this as much as the marriage/divorce thread did.

After all, the Arab societies that you feel aren't giving women their rights are paying women the same as men. You either didn't know that or didn't care about that, because in the US women aren't payed equally, and therefore this is not a big deal. Because the US says so.

Excuse me for being rude, but I know that the if "paying women more than men" existed in ME, but did not exist in the US, you would see it as a very closed minded, stupid, racist thing. But three rivers curly just told me that it is not of her human rights to be payed the same amount that a man that a man pays. Had I said that, i would have been "stoned to death".

Again, sorry for being rude. this time I couldn't help it.

Sarsara, you seem to have some very negative pre-conceived notions of life in the USA, and you state your disgust at those ideas quite plainly here, yet, woe to the person who dares to saying anything that you perceive to be the slightest bit anti-islam, because then you cry a river and scream about people hating on your religion. I'm anti-religion, not just anti-islam. I think religion is the root of all evil in the world and we all (especially women) would be better off without any religion. Ask the christians here, I'm just as much anti-christian and anti-judaism as I am anti-islamic.

Your notion that women are paid less for the same work in the USA is patently false. That is illegal and is dealt with harshly in our courts. Men do tend to make more money overall, but that can be attributed to men not taking time off for maternity leaves, and working at higher-valued jobs. But, when women work the same jobs as men, they are paid the same. Women here have the right to choose any work they want, so they can choose work that is typically done by men.

Women in the USA did have to step up and demand these rights to equal pay though. Men weren't just going to hand them over. Just like ME women should do...stand up and demand not to be treated like property anymore. Demand equal rights. You won't get those rights unless you (women as a whole) take them.

As far as sexual situations in movies...I don't know what you are watching, but I rarely see the threesomes sexual encounters you are talking about in mainstream American movies. They exist in pornography, but porn is deviant and not part of our mainstream society. The USA hardly has the worst porn reputation...that honor could be split among many countries.
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Last edited by curlinicator; 02-01-2013 at 02:32 PM.

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