UPHELD!!

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I love that gif. I think I actually posted it here when Obama won, haven't seen it since.

I love how they all went and got iced mochas or something to celebrate.
Bill Maher tweet: it's not a tax on healthcare, it's a tax on freeloaders who weren't paying but using; wld be like calling a speeding ticket a driving ticket.

I was born to be a pessimist. My blood type is B Negative.
Bill Maher tweet: it's not a tax on healthcare, it's a tax on freeloaders who weren't paying but using; wld be like calling a speeding ticket a driving ticket.
Originally Posted by roseannadana
I totally can't stand Bill Maher; but as a Republican who doesn't believe in "all things Republican," I can't believe I have to say I agree with Bill this time. For those people who weren't paying and don't want to pay (meaning those who can afford it), I always said they would be the first ones to scream "pre existing condition" if and when it happened to them and wanted (needed) coverage. They are the "want their cake and eat it too" kind of people out there and most of them are Tea Partiers.

OMG, I agree with Bill Maher. This is a cold day. . .!!!
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Was out of town and away from a computer when this ruling came down.

Have spent the last 7+ years of my life (professionally and on my own time) devoted to building the movement for single-payer, national, improved- Medicare-for-all, (and other more local forms of healthcare justice).

Below is a quote I totally agree with.

Guess who said it?

Forcing Uninsured to Buy Insurance Is Like Forcing Homeless to Buy Homes




-Candidate Obama, 2008

Obama to DeGeneres on Why He Opposed Individual Mandate: Forcing Uninsured to Buy Insurance Is Like Forcing Homeless to Buy Homes | CNSNews.com

and

Obama on mandates - YouTube

(The individual mandate is actually a Republican idea modeled after "Romneycare" in MA, and the ACA was co-written by a former Wellpoint (health insurance) executive-- the for-profit health insurance industry will be bolstered and strengthened by the mandate, and they are our #1 enemy against universal healthcare and help fund the president and other politicians. Many people will purchase crap insurance that they cannot even afford to use due to the cost of co-pays and premiums. People failing to purchase insurance is not the cause of the healthcare crisis and forcing them to do so is not the solution. Minimum 23 million will remain uninsured, and under-insurance will become the new norm.)

There were 9 rallies for single-payer universal healthcare that I know of across the country on the day the SCOTUS decision was announced. The movement for healthcare as a human right in the US carries on!
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I agree, I want single-payer, too. But this decision will probably be like Brown v. Board of Education, a demarcation line for before we gave a dang and after. People were still denied basic rights after Brown, and it took years of resistance to finally see the Civil Rights Act come to fruition.

We'll get there. Unfortunately, more people will have to suffer. But this is the system we have to work within. There will be people that slowly work within the system to break it down tiny piece by piece, those that rail against the system in protest, those that work against both of the previously mentioned groups, and those who may have an opinion but do nothing but sit back and watch. In the U.S., all players are necessary to bring eventual change. If you look at our history, we've seen this pattern before. Change is definitely coming.

Years from now kids will read history books about how stupid we were about healthcare. By then there will be further, more detailed codification outlining exactly why yes, healthcare is a right and not a privilege.

"In the depth of winter, I finally learned that within me there lay an invincible summer."

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Last edited by curlyarca; 07-04-2012 at 04:22 AM. Reason: Edited to change d*** to dang.
...and they were yelling "states' rights" then, too. Same stuff, different day.

"In the depth of winter, I finally learned that within me there lay an invincible summer."

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...healthcare is a right and not a privilege.
Originally Posted by curlyarca
not so much a "right" as something good for the social structure of the country - which is what our governments thought when they started implementing it, first in provinces with agriculture-based communities, then across the country.

this was posted to ABC on Sunday in honour of Canada Day:

...every Canadian -- rich or poor -- gets the health care they need, thanks to a publicly funded universal health insurance program. The program stemmed from the idea that health care is a social good, not a purchasable commodity, according to the Canadian Museum of Civilization. And beyond having the top quality of life, Canadians live almost three years longer than Americans on average, according to "The Truth About Getting Sick in America," by ABC News senior medical contributor Dr. Tim Johnson.
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People aren't going to be buying insurance if they can save money with the penalty, and the penalty will be far less than what health insurance costs. Low income people will not have to pay a penalty at all. So, all this means is that people will be paying a few cents to be able to come in the hospital any time for some huge unforseen problem and be taken care of. If they can actually afford the subsidized insurance that will be available to them after the fact. My state has subsidized insurance for lower income individuals and small businesses right now and it is VERY expensive. We still have 15% of people uninsured when I think the national average is 20%.

I hope they have the dollars and cents right on this (with the many taxes on the rich and whatnot).
The U.S. proves time and time again that it cannot manage money, and we're basically living off of the Chinese right now, so I'm a bit concerned.

Last edited by slinky1; 07-07-2012 at 07:14 PM.
...and they were yelling "states' rights" then, too. Same stuff, different day.
Originally Posted by curlyarca
"They" are always yelling states rights...
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The insurance that people will be mandated to buy from the new Exchanges comes in Bronze, Silver, Gold, and Platinum plans, covering 60%, 70%, 80%, or 90% of your costs (not including the premium, deductibles, and co-pays).

So, you choose a plan based on how much you can afford to pay. Even if you can afford a gold plan (doubtful most people will be able to afford this option), if you actually become acutely or chronically ill, paying for 20% of your care can easily bankrupt you. Medical bankruptcies by the insured will remain the #1 kind even after this "historic" bill is in full effect.

Basing the level of care you have access to on ability to pay is just sick. Many people who purchase these plans, including those who receive subsidies, will not even be able to afford to use them since many will be responsible for 40% of their care plus premium, co-pay, deductible. So the insurance companies get richer, on our backs (subsidies are public money), and people won't even get healthcare.

And the way the expansion of Medicaid, a sucky program but better than nothing, is getting stripped away should be criminal.

When the mandate goes into effect, many of the people affected by it who are happy about the ACA now are going to feel really angry and alienated. Hopefully some of them will become active in the movement for single-payer and stop worrying about President Obama's career over justice and health. We will never make real progress until the for-profit insurance is brought down and we establish nonprofit single-payer. We won't win this until there's a bigger social movement behind it.
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Taking down the insurance companies isn't that great of an idea, either, as they're the only place left in the private sector where a person (esp someone with limited education) can get a halfway decent job with some degree of upward mobility.

The costs involved with health CARE need to be addressed. .
i've heard the system in France is even better than the one we have here in Canada:

Why The French Can Afford To Get Sick - CBS News

those of us in countries with "socialized" medicine, have LOWER medical costs than the US.

On a per capita basis it costs the French about $3,400 a year for health care, most of which, they complain, comes from taxes.

But in the U.S., per capita spending for health care is almost
double that figure

And there are
still roughly forty six million Americans who are uninsured.

this is also true in Canada, Great Britain, Australia... etc.

(the story aired on CBS Sunday Morning a few years back, it still holds true.)
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We can't manage money here, though. We spend billions of dollars a day on things, and no one knows where it goes.

In my state, a low income health care plan will cost about $4,500 next year for an individual. Of course, it doesn't cover everything. Again, let's HOPE they know what they're doing.
Taking down the insurance companies isn't that great of an idea, either, as they're the only place left in the private sector where a person (esp someone with limited education) can get a halfway decent job with some degree of upward mobility.

The costs involved with health CARE need to be addressed. .
Originally Posted by slinky1
The insurance companies wouldn't be abolished until after HR 676 (the single-payer bill in Congress) was instituted, not before.

Our healthcare costs are so inflated largely because of insurance companies, and because our system is largely for-profit and allowed to charge what the market will allow. However, the market is allowing people to get sick and die early deaths. So we have to remove healthcare completely from markets and make it nonprofit and available to all with no barriers like the inability to pay, like the fire department, the police department, etc.
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dp, sorry.
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Last edited by diaspora; 07-08-2012 at 05:44 PM.
i've heard the system in France is even better than the one we have here in Canada:

Why The French Can Afford To Get Sick - CBS News

those of us in countries with "socialized" medicine, have LOWER medical costs than the US.

On a per capita basis it costs the French about $3,400 a year for health care, most of which, they complain, comes from taxes.

But in the U.S., per capita spending for health care is almost
double that figure

And there are
still roughly forty six million Americans who are uninsured.

this is also true in Canada, Great Britain, Australia... etc.

(the story aired on CBS Sunday Morning a few years back, it still holds true.)
Originally Posted by rouquinne
Yup. The United State's healthcare system regularly ranks 37th (by the WHO on measures such as health status and access), with Canada and all of Europe faring better than us as for wayyyy less $ per person. Countries like Singapore and Costa Rica do better than us too (both also provide universal coverage free or minimal cost at the point-of-service).

ETA: I've heard that the problem in Canada, though it's much better to get sick there than in the US, is that the system has been gradually underfunded.
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We also have a little situation where unnessary tests and medications are given all of the time. And then there's the maintenance visits to monitor you while on the medication.

Every college kid who stays up late and eats crap all of the time shouldn't get a script for Prevacid/upper GI and monitoring visits, every overweight woman who won't lose a few pounds or manage her carbs to begin ovulating again (and stop accumulating cysts) shouldn't be given a 7k script and monitoring visits, every tv dinner eater who refuses to cook for themselves shouldn't be given high blood pressure meds...

I mean, c'mon. Some people have trouble with this stuff, I realize, but most aren't even TRYING and docs don't even bother to help them. There comes a time when you gotta take responsibility for your actions. There are limited resources.

And docs...really...We don't need a CAT scan or an MRI in our 20s when we come in with a stuffy nose or stuffy ears during a terrible allergy season. Everyone's taking advantage of the current system and it needs to end.

Last edited by slinky1; 07-08-2012 at 05:47 PM.
We also have a little situation where unnessary tests and medications are given all of the time. And then there's the maintenance visits to monitor you while on the medication.

Every college kid who stays up late and eats crap all of the time shouldn't get a script for Prevacid/upper GI and monitoring visits, every overweight woman who won't lose a few pounds or manage her carbs to begin ovulating again (and stop accumulating cysts) shouldn't be given a 7k script and monitoring visits, every tv dinner eater who refuses to cook for themselves shouldn't be given high blood pressure meds...

I mean, c'mon. Some people have trouble with this stuff, I realize, but most aren't even TRYING and docs don't even bother to help them. There comes a time when you gotta take responsibility for your actions. There are limited resources.

And docs...really...We don't need a CAT scan or an MRI in our 20s when we come in with a stuffy nose or stuffy ears during a terrible allergy season. Everyone's taking advantage of the current system and it needs to end.
Originally Posted by slinky1
Regarding the bolded: Again, the reason some doctors prescribe tests and pills unnecessarily is the profit motive. They would not get extra payment for things like this under the single-payer bills proposed in the United States, they'd simply get paid for doing their jobs.

Regarding the red, especially people with high blood pressure who eat crap, what do you propose should be done? Even if they are able to change their diet, the drop in blood pressure would not be fast. Should they be left to have heart attacks or strokes? That will cost even more to treat, if they survive. There is more than enough money in the system, and in this country, to actually take care of the people who need it. It is just being terribly misspent on things like insurance company advertising and CEO profits (and outside the healthcare system, on wars and other things most people don't even agree with).

Instead of blaming each other, as the government/insurance/pharma would prefer we do so that nothing changes and they maintain their wealth/power, we need to blame the system that is effing us all over and do something about it. Not just getting nonprofit universal healthcare, but making fresh healthy food available and affordable in every neighborhood is extremely important if we want ourselves and our country to be healthy and productive.
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Last edited by Guide22; 07-08-2012 at 06:07 PM. Reason: Edited due to language rules
...the reason some doctors prescribe tests and pills unnecessarily is the profit motive.
Originally Posted by diaspora
not the only reason.

you are also a lawsuit-happy country and doctors are afraid of being sued if they don't pull out ALL the stops and miss something...
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*Is* there more than enough money in the system? Aren't our citizens relatively unhealthy and geting more unhealthy? Are we going to lower doctor's wages to 50k/yr? I'm sure we'll really get good care when they do that.

MOST doctors right now (and I know from experience) WILL NOT tell patients how they can avoid taking medications. A step in the right direction would be to at least bring these things into the conversation at your doctor's visit. MOST people will not die within weeks or months if they go without medication.

So...say someone HAS to get meds right away so they don't die...When people have a choice of either paying a meager penalty and paying for expensive health insurance (IT WILL be expensive), they are going to pay the penalty (no matter what their income). They've made that decision before, and they'll make it again. Heck, even those who are currently insured might say "F THIS" and drop their coverage to save cash. Cuz...no prexisting conditions and your arse is covered. Those who have coverage now and a decent income will see their premiums go up, I am sure. Those who have fabulous coverage will be offered lesser, more expensive coverage with Obamacare (40% Cadillac tax will force ins companies to drop such plans and offer lesser plans for same amount). Which will end up being a salary reduction for these employees that their companies won't cover. So...guess what? And thus, all of these people will go years without seeing the doctor until some horrible event occurs and they need a 30k operation.

Maybe more people will die sooner because of all of this. That will definitely save the health care system some cash, but I don't think that is what is intended.

I mean, think about it. If you are scraping by now, are you going to pay for health insurance, even if it costs you $150/month (and HOW could it be cheaper than that?)? No. So, you still won't get preventative care.

Last edited by slinky1; 07-08-2012 at 06:29 PM.

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