Israeli lawmaker tears up New Testament

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But why not just respectfully rufuse the gift/decline the conversion/address the snub?

Why pose for pictures and make a spectacle desecrating a religious text?

What if someone sends him an invitation to attend a service at their church? Should he go to the chuch building and throw rocks at it...bc it was "insulting?"
Originally Posted by spiderlashes5000
I'm not surprised by Ben-Ari's reactions. Religious Jews often get super ticked about this sort of thing. It's a whole history behind this that is deep rooted and a sore spot. And I really don't expect non-Jews and in some sense non-religious Jews to fully understand how some Jews take the idea of sending them a NT. Particularly.. sending it to an Israeli Orthodox Jew.

Furthermore, I find it extremely difficult to believe that the person that sent the NT to him didn't know any of this...before hand. I believe it was done to incite rage.
Originally Posted by *Marah*
SC and Marah both put it well. And I think Amneris' post is 100% correct.

If being black were something you could convert from and white people in the US were trying to convert black people telling them that being white is better... I think it would be the same feeling of insult. Certainly to me being Christian is simply not an option because of my beliefs, but if you're Orthodox, living in a country founded after the near-annihilation of your people, with an attempt to eradicate your religion as a significant even leading to it? And you're less than 100 years from those times? Yeah, it's going to be way beyond simply "insulting."

That said, I do think it was the incorrect reaction. While I think of the New Testament as a work of fiction personally, I would not show the disrespect to all followers of the religion he did. I just don't think it compares to attacking a religion in the same way Quran burnings do because of the personal insult which instigated it. It was still an incorrect behavior, though.
Originally Posted by NetG
To piggyback on what spidey said, I agree with her that the race analogy doesn't work for me, though I did agree with the rest of your post. White people in the US and elsewhere DO tell Black people, subtly or not, that white is better - it's a constant message that becomes permanently ingrained and internalized in most Black people and it is a message that has been sent throughout history and events not very removed from our time. Surely you know that! Black people can't "convert" to actually being white, but we can be, and are, expected to adopt "white" values, styles, lifestyles etc. in order to succeed and fit in. This is so pervasive that people don't even HAVE to get up in your face about it!
Originally Posted by Amneris
And Christians let Jews know in many ways that Christianity is better than Judaism too..which in turn means Christians are better than Jews.

Jews were and are expected to assimiliate in a lot of ways that are foreign to our culture, religion, and thoughts on many things. We, like black people (and this is touchy for me since I fall in both groups) indeed have done just that to "fit in". I will say that it's MUCH more difficult for blacks though..because if you are black and you don't look darn near white or other..you are immediately getting judged. And white Jews certainly have a leg up in that area in the USA.

But I do think it's sort of unfair to act like the Jewish plight could NEVER compare to that of blacks (and I'm not sure if that's what you are doing or not). Jews understand persecution for simply being what they are too.

So while I get what you are saying as one person of color to the other.. I get what NetG is conveying as well. BOTH of you all make valid points and I can see why you come to your conclusions.

This makes no sense, and its completely egotistical.

Why would someone be religious just to say they're better than someone else? What?

I think there are plenty of reasons a person would become religious, and they would only apply to said religious seeking person.

And the last part of the comment is ridiculous as well. Do you buy clothes for yourself? Go to the movies? Watch TV? Go out to dinner? Spend time on the computer? Cause maybe you should spend your time focusing on the tragedies of the world rather than doing all that stuff! - sounds ridiculous doesn't it? People gotta live. Religion makes some people happy. You're not required to participate, and I'm pretty sure its not contributing to the world's catastrophes. People are. Closed minded, opinionated people.


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Originally Posted by iroc
I took it to mean that some people use religion as a means to say that they are better than others, not that all religious people are doing that just by being religious. People who subscribe to the belief that their particular brand of religion makes them saved or chosen or somehow separated from others who are not, in my opinion, do use religion as a way to feel bigger and better than others. Religious people who don't believe that aren't doing that.

Nor did I take curlypearl's post to mean that people can't enjoy trivial things, but that IF you are going to take up a cause or a belief and spend time on it, trying to convert others etc. why not make that cause doing good? (And many religions and religious people do just that.)
Originally Posted by Amneris
But why make that observation specifically at all? There are people of all walks who consider themselves superior based on their opinions or beliefs, not necessarily having anything to do with religion.

And my analogy was referring to the fact that it is worth fighting for some people. If you're not religious you probably don't understand, but there are some people who are very very serious about it. Why tell them their belief or focus is a waste of time? Who are you (as in anyone) to tell a person that the time they spend on what they highly believe in could better be spent elsewhere?

Some people believe that their beliefs explain tragedies in the world, some think their belief can fix them - regardless how it may sound to you (anyone), its important to them.


If I misunderstood curlypearls comment, I apologize.

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Originally Posted by iroc
I agree that people consider themselves superior for any number of reasons, but THIS thread is about religion (and a little about race) and not those other reasons, so I wouldn't expect them to come up.

There is a difference in being serious about religion, or fighting for your own right to practice your faith, and fighting WITH other people over religion, or trying to force other people to practise your religion.

To me, a good Christian is always serious about religion in everything they do because they should be helping the needy and being a good example (I don't mean literally doing it 24-7 and not having any downtime, of course), so I don't have any problem with someone doing that. But someone focussing on what other people believe is not in the same category.
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Get used to me. Black, confident, cocky; my name, not yours; my religion, not yours; my goals, my own; get used to me. -Muhammad Ali











You act like that is some far-fetched hypotheticality. White people constantly tell Black people White is better...so much so, they have us halfway believing it.

I'm familiar w/ the practice...believe me. (But it's still a bad analogy bc "race" really can't be changed so anyone who is trying to convince me of the inferiority of mine is doing it out of hate and/or a desire to oppress me.

Converting to Christianity, on the other hand, while obviously a stupid and inconsiderate thing to do in this case, is usually well intentioned, as the converter believes it is the only way to heaven....and wants the person to go to heaven.)

But anyway, people do try to convert me to all kinds of different things, incl. different religions. Who hasn't been targetting by Jehova's Witnesses, Mormons, Hare Krshnas, etc? You politely decline and keep it moving. You don't try to inflame the person by destroying his/her literature and calling a press conference.

Second, the man lives in Israel! The site of religious-based wars for ten thousand years!!! It's not like he's never seen a Bible before. And it's not like he doesn't understand the religious/political climate. He's probably seen members of his own family get their heads blown off for walking down the wrong street or...or just existing. Probably knows a bunch of folks in the Israeli Army who's blown a few heads off, too. Maybe he has, himself, since they all have to serve in the Army. Seeing a Bible really shouldn't be that big of a deal, in the scope of things.

Third, we don't know how the guy got the Bible. His flunkie said <surprise surprise> it was sent to him by a missionary. We don't know that; it wasn't confirmed. Maybe the politician is just an asz who wanted to start a bunch of commotion.
Originally Posted by spiderlashes5000;
To the bold: You just really don't get it at all. It's not the fact that he SAW a Bible. It's what it represents to him as an Israeli Orthodox Jew..the fact that it was sent to him from a Christian missionary.. the NT.

As I said.. the full scope of this sort of thing is often incredibly difficult for non-Jews to comprehend. Much in the same way that it's difficult for white people to fully understand the scope of what it's like being black and all that comes with being black. And yes it's comparable.

Furthermore, being Jewish is not just about Judaism (the religious aspect). There are plenty of BORN Jews that do not practice Judaism and they have still felt the sting of anti-semitism.

You think this Orthodox Jewish Israeli man should have shown respect but where is the respect for him in the first place and what his people have gone through at the hands of the same type of people that profess the very religion that you align yourself with ? To YOU getting a NT in the mail may not be an insult but to him it was a horrific insult and it is to MANY Jews. And it's more than just a simple matter of "Oh Jews don't like the NT".

Your bible teaches: "Do to others as you would have them do to you."

Judaism teaches: "What is hateful to you..do not do to your fellow..that is the whole Torah, the rest is commentary. Now go and learn".

While both these sentences look very similiar they are not.. the implications behind them both are very different. It goes to show you just how far Christianity is from Judaism.

It is not my position that you are being mean or deliberately disrespectful at all but I do think this matter offends you on some level because he tore up YOUR holy book. But bottom line: I just think on this particular subject reguarding Jews and Israel (like white people are on certain issues concerning blacks) that you are incredibly naive to say, "a Bible shouldn't be that big a deal, in the scope of things". You couldn't possibly get it and have posted that..
Originally Posted by *Marah*
Maybe I get it and maybe I don't.
I don't think it's all that complicated like you are trying to make it out to be but perhaps it is.

Obviously I know the Bible holds symbolic importance...and it wasn't that he saw somer random leather-bound book and flipped out.

But if anything I think ~you~ are the one missing the context. This didn't happen in rural Ohio Klan country where he was the only Jew in a 500 mile radius. It happened in Israel! The Holy Land. Life centers around the Big Three religions there, and if anything Christians are in the minority. Religious identity is one of the most significant aspects of life there and the conflict that surrounds it is an EVERYDAY occurrence there. Why would run-in w/ a Bible or a disrespectful missionary warrant this kind of reaction when people are shooting, stoning, spraying, bombing and beating each other to death their over religious disagreements right in his backyard on a regular basis?

No, I personally don't feel a stab in the heart everytime a Christian Bible is defaced. I don't workship paper and ink.

I'm a person of faith; I like for my faith to be respected and exist in a world where others' are, too.

That is my objection. I can't comment on the supposed missionaries who supposedly attempted to offend this man...bc that part of the story is all unsubstantiated at this point.
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Last edited by spiderlashes5000; 07-18-2012 at 01:19 PM.



SC and Marah both put it well. And I think Amneris' post is 100% correct.

If being black were something you could convert from and white people in the US were trying to convert black people telling them that being white is better... I think it would be the same feeling of insult. Certainly to me being Christian is simply not an option because of my beliefs, but if you're Orthodox, living in a country founded after the near-annihilation of your people, with an attempt to eradicate your religion as a significant even leading to it? And you're less than 100 years from those times? Yeah, it's going to be way beyond simply "insulting."

That said, I do think it was the incorrect reaction. While I think of the New Testament as a work of fiction personally, I would not show the disrespect to all followers of the religion he did. I just don't think it compares to attacking a religion in the same way Quran burnings do because of the personal insult which instigated it. It was still an incorrect behavior, though.
Originally Posted by NetG
To piggyback on what spidey said, I agree with her that the race analogy doesn't work for me, though I did agree with the rest of your post. White people in the US and elsewhere DO tell Black people, subtly or not, that white is better - it's a constant message that becomes permanently ingrained and internalized in most Black people and it is a message that has been sent throughout history and events not very removed from our time. Surely you know that! Black people can't "convert" to actually being white, but we can be, and are, expected to adopt "white" values, styles, lifestyles etc. in order to succeed and fit in. This is so pervasive that people don't even HAVE to get up in your face about it!
Originally Posted by Amneris
And Christians let Jews know in many ways that Christianity is better than Judaism too..which in turn means Christians are better than Jews.

Jews were and are expected to assimiliate in a lot of ways that are foreign to our culture, religion, and thoughts on many things. We, like black people (and this is touchy for me since I fall in both groups) indeed have done just that to "fit in". I will say that it's MUCH more difficult for blacks though..because if you are black and you don't look darn near white or other..you are immediately getting judged. And white Jews certainly have a leg up in that area in the USA.

But I do think it's sort of unfair to act like the Jewish plight could NEVER compare to that of blacks (and I'm not sure if that's what you are doing or not). Jews understand persecution for simply being what they are too.

So while I get what you are saying as one person of color to the other.. I get what NetG is conveying as well. BOTH of you all make valid points and I can see why you come to your conclusions.
Originally Posted by *Marah*
I think Springcurl said it - but no, I'm not saying that the Jewish plight doesn't compare to that of Blacks. I am not comparing them. I am saying that they are similar in many respects, and so I don't agree with the use of the Black example as if it is something hypothetical that doesn't happen. I agree with you about the pressure on Jews to assimilate and the Christians who feel superior to them - that's all absolutely true.
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Get used to me. Black, confident, cocky; my name, not yours; my religion, not yours; my goals, my own; get used to me. -Muhammad Ali












To piggyback on what spidey said, I agree with her that the race analogy doesn't work for me, though I did agree with the rest of your post. White people in the US and elsewhere DO tell Black people, subtly or not, that white is better - it's a constant message that becomes permanently ingrained and internalized in most Black people and it is a message that has been sent throughout history and events not very removed from our time. Surely you know that! Black people can't "convert" to actually being white, but we can be, and are, expected to adopt "white" values, styles, lifestyles etc. in order to succeed and fit in. This is so pervasive that people don't even HAVE to get up in your face about it!
Originally Posted by Amneris
And Christians let Jews know in many ways that Christianity is better than Judaism too..which in turn means Christians are better than Jews.

Jews were and are expected to assimiliate in a lot of ways that are foreign to our culture, religion, and thoughts on many things. We, like black people (and this is touchy for me since I fall in both groups) indeed have done just that to "fit in". I will say that it's MUCH more difficult for blacks though..because if you are black and you don't look darn near white or other..you are immediately getting judged. And white Jews certainly have a leg up in that area in the USA.

But I do think it's sort of unfair to act like the Jewish plight could NEVER compare to that of blacks (and I'm not sure if that's what you are doing or not). Jews understand persecution for simply being what they are too.

So while I get what you are saying as one person of color to the other.. I get what NetG is conveying as well. BOTH of you all make valid points and I can see why you come to your conclusions.
Originally Posted by *Marah*
I think Springcurl said it - but no, I'm not saying that the Jewish plight doesn't compare to that of Blacks. I am not comparing them. I am saying that they are similar in many respects, and so I don't agree with the use of the Black example as if it is something hypothetical that doesn't happen. I agree with you about the pressure on Jews to assimilate and the Christians who feel superior to them - that's all absolutely true.
Originally Posted by Amneris
Thank you for the clarification..totally agree with you. Great points. Sorry I didn't fully understand at first.
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Spidey, doesn't the context also have to include that Israel is a country founded in the aftermath of the Holocaust and many if not most of its Jewish residents are survivors or their descendants who may be still traumatized by it? And that, rightly or wrongly, many Israelis perceive themselves as somewhat isolated and constantly under attack for who they are as a people? And that there are indeed some who do want to wipe them out for that reason?

That context should be apparent to anyone considering sending Bibles there.
Get used to me. Black, confident, cocky; my name, not yours; my religion, not yours; my goals, my own; get used to me. -Muhammad Ali











Spidey, doesn't the context also have to include that Israel is a country founded in the aftermath of the Holocaust and many if not most of its Jewish residents are survivors or their descendants who may be still traumatized by it? And that, rightly or wrongly, many Israelis perceive themselves as somewhat isolated and constantly under attack for who they are as a people? And that there are indeed some who do want to wipe them out for that reason?

That context should be apparent to anyone considering sending Bibles there.
Originally Posted by Amneris
Of course.

But when hundreds of people get heir heads blown off there on the daily in "religious insurgence", receiving a copy of the Bible in the mail from a missionary is like small potatoes...esp when Christians are the minority in the region. Christians make up 2% of the population is Israel (not 20%...only 2%). Jews make up about 80%. Why would any Jew feel isolated or attacked for being Jewish in Israel?

And we don't know how he got the Bible!
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Last edited by spiderlashes5000; 07-18-2012 at 02:04 PM.
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don't make me hafta beat you down!
Maybe I get it and maybe I don't.
I don't think it's all that complicated like you are trying to make it out to be but perhaps it is.
Originally Posted by spiderlashes5000;
No.. I'm not trying to make it out to be anything. I'm stating what it is for many Jews. I was born Jewish, I practice Judaism, I'm involved in my Jewish community and my synagogue, I have relatives and friends that live in Israel that are Jewish. So I'm honestly not trying to "make it out to be" anything but the truth of how many Jews feel about this sort of thing.

Obviously I know the Bible hold symbolic importance. But if anything I think ~you~ are the one missing the context..this didn't happen in rural Ohio where he was the only Jew in a 500 mile radius. It happened in Israel! The Holy Land. Life centers around the Big Three religions there, and if anything Christians are in the minority. The man's religious identity is one of the most significant aspects of his life and the conflict that surrounds it is an EVERYDAY occurrence there.
Yes. And that's why I don't think you understand. It's a slap in the face to send this man (an Orthodox Jew) the NT in his country in light of the history of Israel, who this man and his ancestors are, and what they have been through. Maybe life centers around the 3 religions for some people that live in Israel but for JEWS in Israel.. it's usually either Judaism or nothing. This man is an Orthodox Jew and what he stands for couldn't get any plainer. Furthermore, just because Christians are the minority there doesn't excuse the situation. So that's really besides the point. Israel isn't a Christian country.

No, I personally don't feel a stab in the heart everytime a Christian Bible is defaced. I don't workship paper and ink.
Well then I'm not understanding why you even have anything to say at all about him ripping up the NT. Because that's all it is.. paper and ink. Many religious Jews (even some that aren't particularly religious) though take their religion, culture, and history pretty seriously..so we feel a stab in the heart when that is disrespected because of our history. I know you don't get it.. and that's fine but to trivialize it because you don't get it..is another issue. It's no different than you getting upset when a white person doesn't get the big deal if a black person (and if I'm not mistaken you are at least partially black, right ?) in the USA faces racism and shows outrage about it. I mean don't blacks face it regularly and live in a country where it's often an issue ? So maybe black people should stop making a big deal about it ? Surely you don't think that.. so I don't get why an Israeli Orthodox Jew doesn't get that same understanding...in his own country no less.

I'm a person of faith; I like for my faith to be respected and exist in a world where others' are, too.
That is my objection. I can't comment on the supposed missionaries who supposedly attempted to offend this man...bc that part of the story is all unsubstantiated at this point.
Hmmm.. well I'm sure this Orthodox Jewish man in his own country wished that he and his faith were respected too. And you've already commented on the missionary situation..you think usually their intentions are pure and they just wish to get people into heaven... as if that's some justification. It's not.

My objection is the trivializing of how Jews perceive disrespect concerning who we are.. no disrespect meant to you personally but that's not anyone's call but ours.
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SC and Marah both put it well. And I think Amneris' post is 100% correct.

If being black were something you could convert from and white people in the US were trying to convert black people telling them that being white is better... I think it would be the same feeling of insult. Certainly to me being Christian is simply not an option because of my beliefs, but if you're Orthodox, living in a country founded after the near-annihilation of your people, with an attempt to eradicate your religion as a significant even leading to it? And you're less than 100 years from those times? Yeah, it's going to be way beyond simply "insulting."

That said, I do think it was the incorrect reaction. While I think of the New Testament as a work of fiction personally, I would not show the disrespect to all followers of the religion he did. I just don't think it compares to attacking a religion in the same way Quran burnings do because of the personal insult which instigated it. It was still an incorrect behavior, though.
Originally Posted by NetG
What is the comparison to race about? Not the same at all. Surely there are Orthodox Jews who have converted to other religions. I don't get the purpose of bringing that into the discussion as an "example"...

I agree that the evangelist was definitely in the wrong. To respond like this in front of cameras like some photo-op is what angered me. It really is unspeakable. I agree with the others that the politician should have given a response, but not in this way. His religion does not justify this action in any way, IMO.

Again, I don't get why race has been brought into this and what comparison has to being an Orthodox Jew. I mentioned race because I take allegations like that very seriously as someone who experiences prejudice routinely. I chalked it up to her just being troubled because she's the only one I see airing religious intolerence. Yes, just because we happen to be the majority faith in the U.S. does not mean we can't be victims of intolerance. Speaking of, this politician is in Israel where Jewish people are not a minority religion. I can't see it from his perspective and don't see why I should have to try to see it from his perspective. IMO, he's a nutjob and his religion has no bearing one way or the other.
Originally Posted by Blackbanjogirl
I don't think this is a good example of intolerance towards Christians though, because it is the intolerance OF certain Christians that began this whole episode.

And I don't really believe that Christians in the western world are victims of intolerance. Sure we are in some countries where we are minorities - such as intolerance towards Copts in Egypt. But in the US? I think most of the flak Christians take there are due to the actions of some Christians - and those Christians who do not do those kinds of things or do not agree with them should be the first to speak out about them and distance ourselves from them.
Originally Posted by Amneris
No no no I was talking about rouquinne's accusation that I'm trying to spread an anti-semitic message by posting the article, referring to the reason why I mentioned race. Though, I do think the act demonstrated intolerance. It touched Christians as a whole.
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Originally Posted by frau
Miss Frau...please. I can't help what you dream about in your fantasy world. So nope..there is no mistake. I'm Mrs. Pumphrey. Maybe you should give Morgan Freeman a call. I think he's single now.
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Maybe I get it and maybe I don't.
I don't think it's all that complicated like you are trying to make it out to be but perhaps it is.
Originally Posted by spiderlashes5000;
No.. I'm not trying to make it out to be anything. I'm stating what it is for many Jews. I was born Jewish, I practice Judaism, I'm involved in my Jewish community and my synagogue, I have relatives and friends that live in Israel that are Jewish. So I'm honestly not trying to "make it out to be" anything but the truth of how many Jews feel about this sort of thing.

Obviously I know the Bible hold symbolic importance. But if anything I think ~you~ are the one missing the context..this didn't happen in rural Ohio where he was the only Jew in a 500 mile radius. It happened in Israel! The Holy Land. Life centers around the Big Three religions there, and if anything Christians are in the minority. The man's religious identity is one of the most significant aspects of his life and the conflict that surrounds it is an EVERYDAY occurrence there.
Yes. And that's why I don't think you understand. It's a slap in the face to send this man (an Orthodox Jew) the NT in his country in light of the history of Israel, who this man and his ancestors are, and what they have been through. Maybe life centers around the 3 religions for some people that live in Israel but for JEWS in Israel.. it's usually either Judaism or nothing. This man is an Orthodox Jew and what he stands for couldn't get any plainer. Furthermore, just because Christians are the minority there doesn't excuse the situation. So that's really besides the point. Israel isn't a Christian country.

No, I personally don't feel a stab in the heart everytime a Christian Bible is defaced. I don't workship paper and ink.
Well then I'm not understanding why you even have anything to say at all about him ripping up the NT. Because that's all it is.. paper and ink. Many religious Jews (even some that aren't particularly religious) though take their religion, culture, and history pretty seriously..so we feel a stab in the heart when that is disrespected because of our history. I know you don't get it.. and that's fine but to trivialize it because you don't get it..is another issue. It's no different than you getting upset when a white person doesn't get the big deal if a black person (and if I'm not mistaken you are at least partially black, right ?) in the USA faces racism and shows outrage about it. I mean don't blacks face it regularly and live in a country where it's often an issue ? So maybe black people should stop making a big deal about it ? Surely you don't think that.. so I don't get why an Israeli Orthodox Jew doesn't get that same understanding...in his own country no less.

I'm a person of faith; I like for my faith to be respected and exist in a world where others' are, too.
That is my objection. I can't comment on the supposed missionaries who supposedly attempted to offend this man...bc that part of the story is all unsubstantiated at this point.
Hmmm.. well I'm sure this Orthodox Jewish man in his own country wished that he and his faith were respected too. And you've already commented on the missionary situation..you think usually their intentions are pure and they just wish to get people into heaven... as if that's some justification. It's not.

My objection is the trivializing of how Jews perceive disrespect concerning who we are.. no disrespect meant to you personally but that's not anyone's call but ours.
Originally Posted by *Marah*
If a missionary sent him a Bible, then he is within his rights to feel disrespected. You (you personally and all other Jews) are entitled to feel disrespected on his behalf, as well. I am not saying he shouldn't feel disrespected. I am commenting on his reaction to the disrespect which seems to me a bit of an overreaction when considering he lives in a land that has been decimated by religious war for centuries. And it seems hypocritical when a religious offense is what triggered all of this.
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Spidey, doesn't the context also have to include that Israel is a country founded in the aftermath of the Holocaust and many if not most of its Jewish residents are survivors or their descendants who may be still traumatized by it? And that, rightly or wrongly, many Israelis perceive themselves as somewhat isolated and constantly under attack for who they are as a people? And that there are indeed some who do want to wipe them out for that reason?

That context should be apparent to anyone considering sending Bibles there.
Originally Posted by Amneris
Of course.

But when hundreds of people get heir heads blown off there on the daily in "religious insurgence", receiving a copy of the Bible in the mail from a missionary is like small potatoes...esp when Christians are the minority in the region. Christians make up 2% of the population is Israel (not 20%...only 2%). Jews make up about 80%. Why would any Jew feel isolated or attacked for being Jewish in Israel?

And we don't know how he got the Bible!
Originally Posted by spiderlashes5000
Because the majority of people in all the surrounding countries are not Jewish.
Get used to me. Black, confident, cocky; my name, not yours; my religion, not yours; my goals, my own; get used to me. -Muhammad Ali











If a missionary sent him a Bible, then he is within his rights to feel disrespected. You (you personally and all other Jews) are entitled to feel disrespected on his behalf, as well. I am not saying he shouldn't feel disrespected. I am commenting on his reaction to the disrespect which seems to me a bit of an overreaction when considering he lives in a land that has been decimated by religious war for centuries. And it seems hypocritical when a religious offense is what triggered all of this.
Originally Posted by spiderlashes5000
Hmm.. well I personally didn't think he should have tore up the book (I wouldn't have) but I would have been SUPER pissed off if I was him. I can't say his reaction is an overreaction for him...especially considering where he lives and who he is...I mean it's not like he killed someone. So we see that different ways. The only hypocrisy I see here is a Christian missionary (which I do believe probably sent the book..but I do admit to the possibility that is incorrect) not following the very NT they sent by doing this in the first place.

So I'll agree to disagree with you and still respect your right to your opinion on this matter. I enjoyed our conversation though so thank you.
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To piggyback on what spidey said, I agree with her that the race analogy doesn't work for me, though I did agree with the rest of your post. White people in the US and elsewhere DO tell Black people, subtly or not, that white is better - it's a constant message that becomes permanently ingrained and internalized in most Black people and it is a message that has been sent throughout history and events not very removed from our time. Surely you know that! Black people can't "convert" to actually being white, but we can be, and are, expected to adopt "white" values, styles, lifestyles etc. in order to succeed and fit in. This is so pervasive that people don't even HAVE to get up in your face about it!
Originally Posted by Amneris
But that's exactly why I think it should work for you to understand the kind of feelings involved. It's certainly NOT an analogous situation, in that you can't just magically convert to white. However, Jews have had people trying to convert them for millenia. They were enslaved for being Jewish and developed their own rule similar to "one drop" in which the women's children were considered Jewish regardless of who the father was because of how many were raped in slavery. We hear this story every year at Passover in varying levels of detail depending upon how our families celebrate. We were treated as third rate citizens and looked down upon, and encouraged to assimilate and act as if we weren't "different" in one culture after another. And finally it culminated, during the Holocaust, with an attempt to remove us from existence. It has been thousands of years of being told we're "not as good" and should be more like the dominant religion/culture of the time. I made the comparison specifically because to me there are a lot of similarities in some of the nastiness which happens between races in modern day America.

I think Springcurl said it - but no, I'm not saying that the Jewish plight doesn't compare to that of Blacks. I am not comparing them. I am saying that they are similar in many respects, and so I don't agree with the use of the Black example as if it is something hypothetical that doesn't happen. I agree with you about the pressure on Jews to assimilate and the Christians who feel superior to them - that's all absolutely true.
Originally Posted by Amneris
The hypothetical was that you can't actually change your race. But then, many feel that being Jewish is a race and therefore can't be changed either - there was an awful lot of genealogical research during the Holocaust, so in ways it was even less hypothetical than I made it out to be in that the two are similar.

Spidey, doesn't the context also have to include that Israel is a country founded in the aftermath of the Holocaust and many if not most of its Jewish residents are survivors or their descendants who may be still traumatized by it? And that, rightly or wrongly, many Israelis perceive themselves as somewhat isolated and constantly under attack for who they are as a people? And that there are indeed some who do want to wipe them out for that reason?

That context should be apparent to anyone considering sending Bibles there.
Originally Posted by Amneris
I think any country which is surrounded by people who hate it, and where any place you go you could be blown up by a bomber, where you see the aftermath of death and destruction firsthand all the time, where your existence is threatened just for your beliefs means you're going to be threatened by someone outright trying to tell you to change. Even if most of the residents of Israel are Jewish, their lives are still in danger every minute of every day for that veyr reason. A NT in the mail could simply be someone who thinks you might enjoy it, or it can be an implied threat. When your life feels threatened every time you walk down the street, you're more likely to see the threat, the people telling you that you should die simply for being who you are.


I do still think it was wrong of him. But I think it was understandable all the same.
*Marah* likes this.
The pews never miss a sermon but that doesn't get them one step closer to Heaven.
-Speckla

But at least the pews never attend yoga!
NetG, I hope it's clear that I don't disagree with anything you wrote!
*Marah* likes this.
Get used to me. Black, confident, cocky; my name, not yours; my religion, not yours; my goals, my own; get used to me. -Muhammad Ali











NetG, I hope it's clear that I don't disagree with anything you wrote!
Originally Posted by Amneris
You were one of the people questioning the comparison (though I know you agreed with some of the aspects of it) so I wanted to clarify why I made it - that I think some of the feelings and reasons behind them are very similar, to help some folks who don't quite get it why he may have reacted so strongly in a situation where, as an American Jew whose life has never been threatened due to my religion, I feel he did overreact, but can still somewhat get it.
The pews never miss a sermon but that doesn't get them one step closer to Heaven.
-Speckla

But at least the pews never attend yoga!
NetG, I hope it's clear that I don't disagree with anything you wrote!
Originally Posted by Amneris
You were one of the people questioning the comparison (though I know you agreed with some of the aspects of it) so I wanted to clarify why I made it - that I think some of the feelings and reasons behind them are very similar, to help some folks who don't quite get it why he may have reacted so strongly in a situation where, as an American Jew whose life has never been threatened due to my religion, I feel he did overreact, but can still somewhat get it.
Originally Posted by NetG
I wasn't questioning the validity of the comparison, but the implication that it is only hypothetical that white people tell Black people they are inferior.
Get used to me. Black, confident, cocky; my name, not yours; my religion, not yours; my goals, my own; get used to me. -Muhammad Ali











NetG, I hope it's clear that I don't disagree with anything you wrote!
Originally Posted by Amneris
You were one of the people questioning the comparison (though I know you agreed with some of the aspects of it) so I wanted to clarify why I made it - that I think some of the feelings and reasons behind them are very similar, to help some folks who don't quite get it why he may have reacted so strongly in a situation where, as an American Jew whose life has never been threatened due to my religion, I feel he did overreact, but can still somewhat get it.
Originally Posted by NetG
I wasn't questioning the validity of the comparison, but the implication that it is only hypothetical that white people tell Black people they are inferior.
Originally Posted by Amneris
I didn't mean that to seem like a hypothetical at all - sorry about that! There are so many insidious ways it happens, many of which I probably still don't see, but many of which I now do see because of folks on this board pointing it out. That beyond the blatant and obvious cases, of course.
Amneris likes this.
The pews never miss a sermon but that doesn't get them one step closer to Heaven.
-Speckla

But at least the pews never attend yoga!
Man I just don't want to read the article about this. But I can speak about the context.

1) For millennia, Christians have tried to destroy Judaism by killing or converting all Jews. Jews continue to be a huge target for proselytizing because many Christians believe converting all Jews will validate Christianity as the one true religion. Many Jews see this as sort of a non-violent genocide.

2) Most Christians believe that the New Testament has replaced the "Old Testament," and can't see that it's not outdated in the context of Judaism. They only view Judaism in terms of Christianity, and don't realize that we have our own interpretations of our holy texts. They see Judaism only as an incomplete and misguided "beta version" of Christianity, instead of acknowledging that it's a religion in its own right. Again, this is very insulting.

3) The New Testament contains a lot of polemics against Jews. In the context in which it was written, this is understandable: there was a very ugly feud between mainstream Jews and proto-Christians, with both sides writing angry and insulting tracts against each other. Still, by the time you get to the Gospel of John (historically the newest of the gospels), you have Jews being described as one and the same with the devil. This has caused Jews millennia of persecution and genocide. And even aside from those grave consequences, it's very insulting to Jews.

5) Jews don't believe in proselytizing. Judaism holds that Jews have no advantage over non-Jews in the afterlife, so no one needs to convert. So many (or most?) Jews are against proselytizing per se, no matter who's doing it or who it's aimed at. It's seen as cultural imperialism.

6) You know how American Jews have a reputation for not being crazy fundies? That's because most of the crazy Jews are in Israel. And the crazy, politically ultra-conservative, ethnocentric Jews are disproportionately represented in the Israeli government. So there's a good chance that's the main reason why this guy ripped up a New Testament.

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