rouquinne

Romney: 'Middle-Income' Up To $250,000 Per Year

seriously??? when the median income in the US is about $50K per year????

Mitt Romney is promising to reduce taxes on middle-income Americans.

But how does he define "middle-income"? The Republican presidential nominee defined it Friday as income of $200,000 to $250,000 a year and less.

wow!

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Eilonwy

I disagree with Romney's proposal. But if we're talking social class, then $50k is on the low end of middle class, and $250k is on the low end of upper-middle class. (Yeah I know, I used so many adjectives there )

redcelticcurls

Hell, to him, $200K a year is indigent.

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Amneris

I think "middle class" in the US and, increasingly, in Canada, means something different than what I was brought up to think it meant.

It seems that some say "middle class" to mean average, ordinary, regular people with modest incomes.

I learned that it had more to do with education and profession, which has corresponding income effects.

Working class = blue collar occupations, the trades, menial work, janitorial / domestic / retail / restaurant work

Lower middle class = secretarial/office work, things like tech support, nurses, elementary school teachers, managers of working class occupations, bookkeepers, bankers, lab workers, social workers, paralegals, dental hygienists, police, etc.

Middle class = high school teachers, corporate/businesspersons other than senior management, lower-level accountants, nursing supervisors, opticians / chiropractors etc., research/investigation/policy type jobs that require degrees, civil servants

Upper middle class = actuaries/chartered accountants, CEOs / senior management, doctors, lawyers, engineers, university professors, dentists, vets, judges

Upper class = people with old money and sometimes, with new money if they have a LOT

This corresponds with the socialist idea that class is determined by your closeness to the means of production.

In terms of income, some working class persons would make more than some lower middle class persons. I would generally expect that, at least in Canada, 50K would be in the lower to middle range of the lower middle class professions, probably lower than any of the middle class ones, and way too low for the upper middle class. The upper middle class would generally top out at 200-250K, sometimes more for those in private enterprise.

So when people talk about middle class people "struggling to make ends meet" or talk about tradespeople being middle class, it always baffles me.

eta: I think 250K in the US puts you in the mythical "1%", so I wouldn't really call it representative of the "middle class."

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Eilonwy

I think of social class in terms of lifestyle, not career. Where would you buy your clothes? What car would you drive? Which hotel would you stay at, and which room(s)? What art, what restaurants, etc. Of course, I don't exactly have personal experience in every social class. But my intuition is that 6 digits is upper-middle class, and 7 digits and up is upper class.

rouquinne

i agree 100%!

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Amneris

Yeah, I think it's in actuality a combination of education, career, family upbringing, lifestyle, social associations and income.

I'm not sure I'd look at purchasing of clothes and car in a vacuum because some wealthy people are thrifty, and some are tacky, and some lower income people go into debt to get nice things.

Income-wise, I'd probably say that underclass is long-term social assistance, working class is employed and making less than 40K, lower middle class is 40 - 70K, middle class is 70-100K, upper middle class is 100K - 250K, upper class is above 250K.

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redcelticcurls

As do I. That's a lot of money.

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Amneris

These are the only people I can think of that might earn that:

-judges
-lawyers in private practice with the top firms or at the very very top of the bar with wealthy clients
-other professionals who have their own practices and are among the most exclusive in their field ie. dentists and the like
-surgeons and specialist senior doctors
-CEOs and senior business executives and owners of very lucrative business
-very senior bankers /stockbrokers etc.
-people with lots of investments and family money
-organized crime bosses
-celebrities/athletes etc.


Anything I missed?

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The New Black

Can he *not* say anything stupid?

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mrspoppers

Romney's not the first president to say that's middle class and he won't be the last. And frankly, I agree with him. $250k is per family and it applies to the entire country. If a married couple with kids lives in the Bay Area, NYC, or even Seattle, their income needs to be a heck of a lot higher than a family in a smaller city or town in the middle of the country. This is the only way not to screw the folks that are paying the majority of the taxes these days--yep, the families making less than $250k.

FWIW, we don't make close to $250k. I'm pretty liberal too.

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Eilonwy

Maybe I sort of phrased it as the reverse of what I meant. I didn't mean extrapolating from a persons actual purchasing habits. More like, say, looking at clothing stores and thinking of what people would/could do most of their shopping there.

Anyway, that's my take on social class in terms of social circle, which is mainly how I think of it. Looking at class in terms of income, I agree with your analysis.

Amneris

Oh, if it's per family then 200K - 250K is a very a normal income for two middle class to upper middle class professionals. Two lawyers or doctors could easily make more than that. I don't think that's unreasonable either for a family income.

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Eilonwy

I think you covered most of the general categories, like doctors and businesspeople. But you don't need to be in the upper echelons of those categories to earn that much.

For doctors, were you talking about Canada? I imagine it's much harder for a doctor to earn $250k in Canada than in the US.

mrspoppers

Yeah, it says that a little farther down in the article so I missed it at first too.

You wouldn't even need two doctors or lawyers to make that much here. It probably sounds like were all so well off but when you consider that we have the highest gas prices in the country, the highest local/state tax rates, and high housing costs, it all adds up. No, nobody's poor if they're making $200k-$250k per year, but they're not "wealthy" or "upper class" either.

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Amneris

No, the top specialists will earn about that here. In certain fields where they can do a lot of procedures per day and bill the g'vt for them, they will make that. Family doctors and those who do longer and more complicated procedures won't likely make that.

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Amneris

Yeah. I have friends in Atlanta who are probably in or at least close to that 200-250K household income bracket. He is an actuary for a major life insurance company, so I would expect he makes at least 150K (maybe more?) and she is a speech language therapist in a hospital, so she must be at at least 50K and I would think more like 70-80? They have a good lifestyle, but they have a child and I know she complains that daycare is ridiculously expensive, housing is ridiculously expensive, etc.

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Eilonwy

I can only speak for my own area, but here a family doctor will earn $250k and a top plastic surgeon/cosmetic dentist/dermatologist will earn millions.

BTW, I'm not arguing or anything. It's just interesting to compare my own perceptions and experiences with others'.

Amneris

LOL, yeah, that's why so many Canadian doctors and surgeons go to the US - with private medicine, there is certainly no limit to what you can charge and earn.

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LoloDSM

I did a Google search a few weeks ago, and learned that the "1%" is households earning $350K. I think of $200K - $250K as being upper middle class.

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