They just don't get it

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I agree both sides did a poor job courting women voters. I am pro-life/anti-abortion rights and I think Obama had to sell out his true pro-life position to win this election, and that makes me sick. But it's the way of the world anymore, sadly. So he lost stripes w/ me over that one. But redeemed himself slightly w/ the Ledbetter Bill.

Mitt Romney...not doing anything one way or another for women and he's smarmy, elist, racist prick, so there you go.
Originally Posted by spiderlashes5000
I don't think that he's selling out, I honestly think he is pro- choice, as a huge percentage of women are. I respect those who choose to be pro-life, but I don't respect the notion of forcing that on other women. What of the tables were turned, and abortions were forced on women who were pregnant out of wedlock? It sounds preposterous, and almost laughable to think that would ever happen, right? Why is it not preposterous to for others to force their opinion on women who choose to abort? Why is it still a debate? I feel the same way about gay marriage. Why are straight, homophobic people forcing their opinion on gay people? If Obama were not pro-choice, I don't think I could vote for him. That's obviously not the only reason why I voted for him, but if he spoke out against my rights to control my body, I couldn't vote for him.
Originally Posted by seamelody14
i have to agree. i think obama believes women are intelligent enough to be able to make choices concerning their own bodies. You can have your beliefs just dont force them on others.
Originally Posted by thelio
Bc we believe it's the murder of another human life and we have forced our belief on others that murder is wrong.

I don't think the premise of forced abortion really makes sense. My objection isn't that something is forced. It is that I don't believe in killing people.
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I agree both sides did a poor job courting women voters. I am pro-life/anti-abortion rights and I think Obama had to sell out his true pro-life position to win this election, and that makes me sick. But it's the way of the world anymore, sadly. So he lost stripes w/ me over that one. But redeemed himself slightly w/ the Ledbetter Bill.

Mitt Romney...not doing anything one way or another for women and he's smarmy, elist, racist prick, so there you go.
Originally Posted by spiderlashes5000
I don't think that he's selling out, I honestly think he is pro- choice, as a huge percentage of women are. I respect those who choose to be pro-life, but I don't respect the notion of forcing that on other women. What of the tables were turned, and abortions were forced on women who were pregnant out of wedlock? It sounds preposterous, and almost laughable to think that would ever happen, right? Why is it not preposterous to for others to force their opinion on women who choose to abort? Why is it still a debate? I feel the same way about gay marriage. Why are straight, homophobic people forcing their opinion on gay people? If Obama were not pro-choice, I don't think I could vote for him. That's obviously not the only reason why I voted for him, but if he spoke out against my rights to control my body, I couldn't vote for him.
Originally Posted by seamelody14
i have to agree. i think obama believes women are intelligent enough to be able to make choices concerning their own bodies. You can have your beliefs just dont force them on others.

sidenote: a friend from a small phillipino village asked me about md allowing gays to marry. she said is was disgusting because it goes against the bible. I told her would she like laws passed based on people's religion? "you like pork? well muslims and jews dont eat pork. would you like a lay passed saying because they dont eat pork no one can eat pork?" she said no! "so you get it? america is huge. you can not make laws based on one religion. you can have your beliefs but you have no right to pass it on to others. unless you plan to marry a women you dont have to concern yourself with gay people's private lives."
Originally Posted by thelio
Love your side note. I usually just roll my eyes at people when they start quoting their religion with the gay community stuff. Your argument is valid and well said. I may borrow it!!

I don't think that he's selling out, I honestly think he is pro- choice, as a huge percentage of women are. I respect those who choose to be pro-life, but I don't respect the notion of forcing that on other women. What of the tables were turned, and abortions were forced on women who were pregnant out of wedlock? It sounds preposterous, and almost laughable to think that would ever happen, right? Why is it not preposterous to for others to force their opinion on women who choose to abort? Why is it still a debate? I feel the same way about gay marriage. Why are straight, homophobic people forcing their opinion on gay people? If Obama were not pro-choice, I don't think I could vote for him. That's obviously not the only reason why I voted for him, but if he spoke out against my rights to control my body, I couldn't vote for him.
Originally Posted by seamelody14
i have to agree. i think obama believes women are intelligent enough to be able to make choices concerning their own bodies. You can have your beliefs just dont force them on others.
Originally Posted by thelio
Bc we believe it's the murder of another human life and we have forced our belief on others that murder is wrong.

I don't think the premise of forced abortion really makes sense. My objection isn't that something is forced. It is that I don't believe in killing people.
Originally Posted by spiderlashes5000
Some religions believe birth control is a form of abortion. An egg can be fertilized, but because of birth control it can't attach to the uterus in turn killing a fertilized egg. Right?

I would never have an abortion and I don't approve of abortions out of irresponsibility and being unwilling to take responsibility for ones actions, but in some cases, I could see how it could be warranted (just not by me). I hope I'm never in that situation (rape or incest), but it's tough to say what may happen if I were. I like to think I know, but always and never are big words.

I don't think that he's selling out, I honestly think he is pro- choice, as a huge percentage of women are. I respect those who choose to be pro-life, but I don't respect the notion of forcing that on other women. What of the tables were turned, and abortions were forced on women who were pregnant out of wedlock? It sounds preposterous, and almost laughable to think that would ever happen, right? Why is it not preposterous to for others to force their opinion on women who choose to abort? Why is it still a debate? I feel the same way about gay marriage. Why are straight, homophobic people forcing their opinion on gay people? If Obama were not pro-choice, I don't think I could vote for him. That's obviously not the only reason why I voted for him, but if he spoke out against my rights to control my body, I couldn't vote for him.
Originally Posted by seamelody14
i have to agree. i think obama believes women are intelligent enough to be able to make choices concerning their own bodies. You can have your beliefs just dont force them on others.
Originally Posted by thelio
Bc we believe it's the murder of another human life and we have forced our belief on others that murder is wrong.

I don't think the premise of forced abortion really makes sense. My objection isn't that something is forced. It is that I don't believe in killing people.
Originally Posted by spiderlashes5000
It is forcing someone to carry out a pregnancy, and have a child. That is a huge thing, and I don't think it's responsible for people who know that they don't have the time or means to have a child to have one. It might not be taking a life to not have an abortion, but it could drastically impact two lives, and not in a positive way. We already have far too many children living in the foster care system, and far too many who are neglected or abused. But even if abortion were to be criminalizes, it wouldn't stop it from occurring. It's kind of like how in many states, marijuana is criminalized, but does that stop people? I've read an article about illegal abortion clinics, ironically in a Christian republican magazine that was written to enforce the pro-life stance, describing how illegal abortion clinics operated. Of course, abortion is legal now, so why were these clinics illegal? Because they were aborting 8 month fetuses. In some instances, women would give birth, and then their babies would be killed. I don't know what skewed logic the author used to think that this article would support criminalizing abortion, but for me it did just the opposite. After reading that article, I had yet another reason to be strongly pro-choice. In a perfect world, where nobody ever tried to defy the law, even if they were desperate, making abortions illegal would have a huge negative impact on the lives of the mothers, and many times the children. But that's in a "perfect" world. In reality, we'd see a huge spike in illegal abortions, and I don't think I need to get into why that would be the worse option. It would not save any lives, that I can assure you.
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I dont like the argument that its forcing someone to carry and have a child because, well, that is the natural order of things. And there are plenty of things you can do to avoid pregnancy. There are some things in life that happen, and you don't have the option of hitting the reset button.

And I wont use the religious argument BC not every person is religious or believes in God.

Some people believe it is a human life. Some people argue that it is not.

I personally do not agree with abortion. I personally feel that it is, in most cases, a situation that it avoidable, or acceptable. That is why in most situations I would personally not choose to have an abortion. But laws are not based on my moral compass or the choices I would make. They are based on what is best for the general public.

You may argue that it is killing a life, but it is happening inside another preexisting life. That person should be allowed to choose what is happening to their body, if there is a choice available. You may not feel its 'right', but I don't believe its the governments job to force you to do what they think is right, or live by another persons moral compass.



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Ok, I know I'm kind of going off an a tangent here, but since we're on the topic of social issues, there's another one that I feel the need to elaborate on, gay marriage. I feel that the reversal scenario really fits flawlessly for this argument. Think about it, what if the majority of people were gay, and most followed a popular religion, and said religion banned straight marriage. What if you were straight, and it was you who was in the minority, and you loved someone, but the law said you couldn't marry them? (by the way, I use "you" hypothetically, this is directed at nobody in particular, just want to prove a point to to those who oppose gay marriage) If I tell this to people who oppose gay marriage, they tell me that it's a ridiculous scenario. Really? Why? Because now its the heterosexual couple that is being denied rights? I ask them, by what logic, other than prejudice and religion (both of which are invalid , prejudice for obvious reasons, and religion because of the separation of church and state) should gay people not have the same rights as straight people. And I have never gotten an answer to that. I really can't find anything in the constitution that opposes gay marriage, or anything remotely government related for that matter. If straight people weren't allowed to marry, of course there would be a massive outrage. It would simply never be allowed to happen. So why is it that many people think, unfortunately, that it's ok for people to be denied rights because of their sexual orientation? People need to remember that just 60 years ago, there was a "white" water fountain, and a "colored" one. Just 90 years ago, women could not vote. Those who oppose gay marriage, but wouldn't ever think to shamelessly condone racism and sexism, well...
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I dont like the argument that its forcing someone to carry and have a child because, well, that is the natural order of things. And there are plenty of things you can do to avoid pregnancy. There are some things in life that happen, and you don't have the option of hitting the reset button.

And I wont use the religious argument BC not every person is religious or believes in God.

Some people believe it is a human life. Some people argue that it is not.

I personally do not agree with abortion. I personally feel that it is, in most cases, a situation that it avoidable, or acceptable. That is why in most situations I would personally not choose to have an abortion. But laws are not based on my moral compass or the choices I would make. They are based on what is best for the general public.

You may argue that it is killing a life, but it is happening inside another preexisting life. That person should be allowed to choose what is happening to their body, if there is a choice available. You may not feel its 'right', but I don't believe its the governments job to force you to do what they think is right, or live by another persons moral compass.



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Originally Posted by iroc
I personally do not agree with using abortion as a form of birth control either, if that's what you're getting at, but there are many situations in which I think it would be irresponsible, or detrimental to have a child. I also believe that an adult woman is more of a life than a group of cells who cannot think, feel, etc. I know people will disagree with me, but I feel that even if yes, a fetus is technically alive, it is not alive in the sense that we think of when we think of murder, so therefore it's not murder. It is terminating a potential life, rather than a life. I understand why people may be against that, and I respect that, I really do. But in the end, I, and only I, should be in control of my body.
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I don't think that he's selling out, I honestly think he is pro- choice, as a huge percentage of women are. I respect those who choose to be pro-life, but I don't respect the notion of forcing that on other women. What of the tables were turned, and abortions were forced on women who were pregnant out of wedlock? It sounds preposterous, and almost laughable to think that would ever happen, right? Why is it not preposterous to for others to force their opinion on women who choose to abort? Why is it still a debate? I feel the same way about gay marriage. Why are straight, homophobic people forcing their opinion on gay people? If Obama were not pro-choice, I don't think I could vote for him. That's obviously not the only reason why I voted for him, but if he spoke out against my rights to control my body, I couldn't vote for him.
Originally Posted by seamelody14
i have to agree. i think obama believes women are intelligent enough to be able to make choices concerning their own bodies. You can have your beliefs just dont force them on others.
Originally Posted by thelio
Bc we believe it's the murder of another human life and we have forced our belief on others that murder is wrong.

I don't think the premise of forced abortion really makes sense. My objection isn't that something is forced. It is that I don't believe in killing people.
Originally Posted by spiderlashes5000
But "we" is not all. everyone does not believe abortion is murder. Everyone does not have your beliefs.

I agree with iroc. she does not believe in abortion either, but (I will quote her because she said it best) "You may not feel its 'right', but I don't believe its the governments job to force you to do what they think is right, or live by another persons moral compass. "

alot of folks feel that eating animals or wearing animals is wrong. they feel that is murder. You want PETA making the laws for you because they feel that something is not right?

I think when it comes to people's bodies, and what they choice to do with it is no ones business. what i do with my body is no ones business. just like what you do is your own business, not mine.

And their was a time when certain women had forced sterilization performed on them. to me its the same thing. telling a women, "you too stupid, so us men will make choices for you." I think its even sadder when women want to make choices for other women.
I dont like the argument that its forcing someone to carry and have a child because, well, that is the natural order of things. And there are plenty of things you can do to avoid pregnancy. There are some things in life that happen, and you don't have the option of hitting the reset button.

And I wont use the religious argument BC not every person is religious or believes in God.

Some people believe it is a human life. Some people argue that it is not.

I personally do not agree with abortion. I personally feel that it is, in most cases, a situation that it avoidable, or acceptable. That is why in most situations I would personally not choose to have an abortion. But laws are not based on my moral compass or the choices I would make. They are based on what is best for the general public.

You may argue that it is killing a life, but it is happening inside another preexisting life. That person should be allowed to choose what is happening to their body, if there is a choice available. You may not feel its 'right', but I don't believe its the governments job to force you to do what they think is right, or live by another persons moral compass.



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Originally Posted by iroc
I personally do not agree with using abortion as a form of birth control either, if that's what you're getting at, but there are many situations in which I think it would be irresponsible, or detrimental to have a child. I also believe that an adult woman is more of a life than a group of cells who cannot think, feel, etc. I know people will disagree with me, but I feel that even if yes, a fetus is technically alive, it is not alive in the sense that we think of when we think of murder, so therefore it's not murder. It is terminating a potential life, rather than a life. I understand why people may be against that, and I respect that, I really do. But in the end, I, and only I, should be in control of my body.
Originally Posted by seamelody14
Wow, I totally quoted the wrong post. I agree with you iroc, that's its not the governments position to decide.
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i have to agree. i think obama believes women are intelligent enough to be able to make choices concerning their own bodies. You can have your beliefs just dont force them on others.
Originally Posted by thelio
Bc we believe it's the murder of another human life and we have forced our belief on others that murder is wrong.

I don't think the premise of forced abortion really makes sense. My objection isn't that something is forced. It is that I don't believe in killing people.
Originally Posted by spiderlashes5000
But "we" is not all. everyone does not believe abortion is murder. Everyone does not have your beliefs.

I agree with iroc. she does not believe in abortion either, but (I will quote her because she said it best) "You may not feel its 'right', but I don't believe its the governments job to force you to do what they think is right, or live by another persons moral compass. "

alot of folks feel that eating animals or wearing animals is wrong. they feel that is murder. You want PETA making the laws for you because they feel that something is not right?

I think when it comes to people's bodies, and what they choice to do with it is no ones business. what i do with my body is no ones business. just like what you do is your own business, not mine.

And their was a time when certain women had forced sterilization performed on them. to me its the same thing. telling a women, "you too stupid, so us men will make choices for you." I think its even sadder when women want to make choices for other women.
Originally Posted by thelio

Anything w/ human DNA and a beating heart is a living human. Now, it is clear in our society that some living humans are thought to be more deserving of life and others less so...such as fetuses, criminals, the elderly, the seriously ill, Black men, the mentally impaired, on and on.

I just don't agree. ("We" is people who feel like I feel.)

The gov't forces us to do stuff and not do stuff all the time.

There are a couple of people I want to kill right now. If I could D&C them right out of my life, I would be happy. But the gov't has forced its moral compass upon me. LOL

I don't believe animal life is sacred. But I do believe human life is. So I, personally, can't go there w/ PETA...tho I respect their position. It just isn't mine.

I, personally, don't have a problem w/ people choosing to sterilize themselves or for sterilization to be strongly recommeded for someone under certain circumstances. But that IMO isn't really related to this topic. I'm talking about ending life that has already been created.

(I agree we should have control over ~our own~ bodies. So no forced sterilization.) But in the case of a pregnancy, there are two bodies...and unless the mother's life is in imminent danger, both bodies have an inherent right to live.

It's not popular anymore but it's just how I feel. And no amount of implication that I'm stupid, unenlightened, brainwashed, submissive, moralistic, etc., is going to change that.

And I can't wait for the chance to vote for somone who TRULY supports and represents MY beliefs. I would work hard to get that person elected. Tired of having to halfway sell out everytime I go to the polls.
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Last edited by spiderlashes5000; 11-08-2012 at 08:08 AM.
Just a reminder. "They" are 50% of this nation. If we are to work together, perhaps you should look at their viewpoint instead of pointing.

I am one of them. I believe strongly that small government is better government. In fact I believe it so strongly that I can't even really support the Republican party anymore since they want to intrude into personal freedoms too much.

I just want to remind all of you, that it isn't "them" it is us. Time to come together again for the good of us all.

that polar bear is soo cute!


I agree, the division is so strong, we can't really get ish done.
(I agree we should have control over ~our own~ bodies. So no forced sterilization.) But in the case of a pregnancy, there are two bodies...and unless the mother's life is in imminent danger, both bodies have an inherent right to live.

It's not popular anymore but it's just how I feel. And no amount of implication that I'm stupid, unenlightened, brainwashed, submissive, moralistic, etc., is going to change that.
Originally Posted by spiderlashes5000
I'm strongly pro-choice, but I do respect your position. As I've argued here and elsewhere, many well-intentioned people believe that abortion is murder, and not all of them are motivated by religious zeal. After all, nobody is pro-abortion.

But I can't understand why so many pro-lifers

1) are supporters of capital punishment, given the gross racial disparities and wrongful convictions
2) are supporters of preemptive wars, wherein innocent life is inevitably taken
3) are either opposed to, or silent on, efforts to increase access to contraception, which would preserve both individual liberty and autonomy AND the sanctity of life
4) support unfettered gun ownership, despite the high homicide rate and numerous gun massacres in the US (and universal support for gun control among law enforcement)


Others have pointed out that banning abortion will not end the practice, as desperate women resort to dangerous means to end their pregnancies. When I discuss this issue in American Government, I show a slide with a picture of a fetus juxtaposed with a coat hangar with a line through it. The only students who understand the latter image are those over 50, who well remember the tragic stories of women who bled to death as a result of illegal abortions.

i have to agree. i think obama believes women are intelligent enough to be able to make choices concerning their own bodies. You can have your beliefs just dont force them on others.
Originally Posted by thelio
Bc we believe it's the murder of another human life and we have forced our belief on others that murder is wrong.

I don't think the premise of forced abortion really makes sense. My objection isn't that something is forced. It is that I don't believe in killing people.
Originally Posted by spiderlashes5000
But "we" is not all. everyone does not believe abortion is murder. Everyone does not have your beliefs.

I agree with iroc. she does not believe in abortion either, but (I will quote her because she said it best) "You may not feel its 'right', but I don't believe its the governments job to force you to do what they think is right, or live by another persons moral compass. "

alot of folks feel that eating animals or wearing animals is wrong. they feel that is murder. You want PETA making the laws for you because they feel that something is not right?

I think when it comes to people's bodies, and what they choice to do with it is no ones business. what i do with my body is no ones business. just like what you do is your own business, not mine.

And their was a time when certain women had forced sterilization performed on them. to me its the same thing. telling a women, "you too stupid, so us men will make choices for you." I think its even sadder when women want to make choices for other women.
Originally Posted by thelio
I agree. Not everyone sees it as murder. I definitely believe Obama is pro choice. He had to say a lot of stuff to get elected the first time.
I think that most issues that divide the country is the social issues, imo they shouldnt even be on the table. my personal life shouldnt be govt business.

Kitschy you said it right, the republicans wants to intrude into people's freedoms. imo its just wrong. they want small govt, but only in ways that they want which is selfish.

while i would love to find a candinate that aligns perfectly with my own beliefs, if they plan to create laws to force our beliefs on the rest of the country i would not vote for them. it would be selfish of me. being selfish and greedy is why our country is in this economic crisis now. we need people to be more giving.

I also think that 99.9% of the population would be pissed if a law passed that made killing people legal. only a sick, evil person would feel not allowing murder is forcing morals on them. i would not want to meet the people who are for decriminalizing murder.

when making laws you can't just think of a percentage of people, you have to go with the majority of the people. you cant make laws based on your own religion. when i think of morals, i think of the inherent principals that guide us through life no better what religion. most people know it's wrong to kill someone, or steal from someone.

As much as I hate seeing someone wearing a fox coat or chinchilla sweater, i could not bring myself to force others to not wear it. i cant force my beliefs on others. i no longer supposrt PETA because they try to force their beliefs on others. it is one thing to want to educate people, but you can not force someone into your way of thinking, by passing laws. and to me thats all it is. passing laws to force people to follow your way of thinking.
Thelio, every single law we have, is forcing our morals on someone else. From murder, to speeding, to littering, to smoking, to paying taxes. For every single law on the books someone vehemently disagrees with them - and quite often it is a majority of people.

Mob rule isn't pretty. It really isn't. The Hitler regime is one example.

The threat of "mob rule" to a democracy is restrained by ensuring that the rule of law protects minorities or individuals against short-term demagoguery or moral panic. Though considering how laws in a democracy are established or repealed by the majority, the rule of law's protection of minorities is questionable.

Thelio, every single law we have, is forcing our morals on someone else. From murder, to speeding, to littering, to smoking, to paying taxes. For every single law on the books someone vehemently disagrees with them - and quite often it is a majority of people.

Mob rule isn't pretty. It really isn't. The Hitler regime is one example.

The threat of "mob rule" to a democracy is restrained by ensuring that the rule of law protects minorities or individuals against short-term demagoguery or moral panic. Though considering how laws in a democracy are established or repealed by the majority, the rule of law's protection of minorities is questionable.
Originally Posted by Kitschy
I never said I agree with every law we have. i think when it comes to what people want to do with their own bodies it should be up to them. if you dont want to wear a seatbelt, you shouldnt have to. i do have issues with the seatbelt laws because its forcing beliefs on people. it has nothing to do with morals, just finding ways to ticket people to get money, imo. those who chooses not to wear seatbelts are only putting themselves at risk. its your life go for it. i also think the law is unfair because they force you to wear a belt in a car, but there are no laws to say all public buses and school buses has to have them installed. so to me the law says, "a seatbelt can save you in a car, but not on a bus."? i choose to wear a seatbelt because i feel safer, on a bus i hold on for nearlife and hope we dont get into an accident. i feel if someone wants to bungee jump without a bungee cord, go ahead. i would look at them like they are crazy and i would never do it, but if they want to why should i stop them?

but when you are putting others at risk for your own selfich reasons that is when laws should be made to prevent it. driviing drunk put others at risk. going 90 on a residental street is putting others at risk. murder is harming others. when you choice to put others in harms way because of your own selfish reasons that is when laws should be made against it. normal people does not object to this laws.

I still have faith in humanity and believe a majority of them feel harming people is wrong. which is why i think now a majority of the country feel gays should be allowed to marry, because by now allowing it, we are hurting people (i know that went off topic, but its to show that the majority of people really wants to do want is right)
Just popping on to say you have another Texan here for Obama. In a nutshell, Romney/Ryan seemed too elitist and judgmental to me. I can't elect that to run the country. One campaign commercial of his just riled me; where he's saying to "stop the hate". What hate? Maybe I was under a rock for the TV campaign ads or maybe I took it out of context, but I don't recall seeing hate being an Obama theme.

I thought it spoke volumes that Rom and Ry couldn't even carry their own states in the election.
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Just popping on to say you have another Texan here for Obama.
Originally Posted by Spiralli
One of the most interesting aspects of the election was the extraordinary demographic and partisan shift in the Lone Star State. Obama won the counties with the 4 largest cities: Travis (Austin), Dallas, Bexar (San Antonio) and Harris (Houston).

The rest is a sea of red, interrupted by an occasional oasis of blue (El Paso, Beaumont), so we're a LONG way off from a Democratic Texas. But these are the same trends we have seen in Virginia over the last 2 elections, and who ever would have believed the capital of the Confederacy would vote for a black man - twice?
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The rest is a sea of red, interrupted by an occasional oasis of blue (El Paso, Beaumont), so we're a LONG way off from a Democratic Texas. But these are the same trends we have seen in Virginia over the last 2 elections, and who ever would have believed the capital of the Confederacy would vote for a black man - twice?
Originally Posted by yossarian
That's actually normal. Metropolitan areas are generally democratic. In fact, I'd like to see any major city that is not. This goes for blue and red states.

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