Israel/Gaza

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Last edited by gardencurls; 11-18-2012 at 01:43 PM.


Ghada Karmi and Ellen Siegel, in 1973, 1992 and 2001. Photos by Francis Khoo (1, 2) and Jean-Pascal Deillon (3)
Originally Posted by wild~hair
While I understand why the Law of Return (guaranteeing Israeli citizenship to any Jew anywhere in the world) seems unfair to the 750,000 Palestinians who cannot return to the homes they lost during Israel's war of independence, bear in mind a couple of things.

900,000 Jews were driven from Arab countries and their homes, property and businesses seized in retaliation for the establishment of Israel, yet nobody ever demands that THEY have a right of return or compensation for everything stolen from them. They were granted safe haven in Israel, whereas the Arab countries refused to grant citizenship to the Palestinians and banned them from many professions.

Between 1948 and 1967, Egypt controlled Gaza and Jordan controlled the West Bank. Either country could have given this territory to the Palestinians for an independent state. Neither did.

History has shown that the Jews need their own state, as a matter of self-preservation. The right of return would be demographic suicide, and moderate Palestinian leaders understand this and have moved away from this demand. This makes the intransigence of Israel's leadership vis-a-vis the occupied territories even more puzzling: if the Palestinians had their own state, the issue of Palestinian claims within Israel would lose its potency.

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I don't even try to understand the conflict anymore. I tried -- really tried -- about 15 years ago. I finally gave up. It's so complex and ever-changing.

Instead I go with the opinions of smart people I trust who know way more about it than I do. A couple friends in particular who have lived and worked in the region. They do not support Israel. They think the Palestinians are being shafted. I tend to agree with them.

I will say this: I understand what you mean when you say history has shown Jews need their own state, but I don't agree. My friends would argue that's the sort of thinking that excuses a lot of wrongdoings on the part of Israel. I think they are right about that. In fact, that's really the crux of the whole matter, isn't it?

I'm at least glad we've moved on our our society from it being completely taboo to call Israel out. There was a time when you could not really openly do that for fear of being called anti-Semitic. That is starting to break down and I'm glad.
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[I simply cannot find any proof that Israel carelessly or intentionally fires at civilians. (I don't read Arabic so I have no idea what Al Jazeera is saying. Not that its a paradigm of journalistic integrity). Hamas uses human targets at the same time they attack. I just don't see how Israel "perpetuates" this cycle. Israel moved out of Gaza, Hamas moved in, and Hamas has been attacking Israel ever since.
Originally Posted by gardencurls
Al Jazeera is published in English. I thought this was widely known since 9/11?

It is also pretty widely respected. It is considered more objective than many U.S. news sources, actually.
Al Jazeera is published in English. I thought this was widely known since 9/11?
It is also pretty widely respected. It is considered more objective than many U.S. news sources, actually.
Originally Posted by wild~hair
Clearly I wasn't talking about the English version of al-Jazeera. I don't rely on many US news sources for information, and I would never rely solely on information from only one source. In any case, I could write a dissertation on the disinformation provided by al-Jazeera in past and present times. Maybe I will.
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Repeating all that old, tired propaganda and posting the anti-Israel cartoons doesn't provide anything other than the current cultural programming trend. Stupid cartoons are supposed to illustrate some elusive "truth"?

Gaza was occupied by Egypt prior to 1967, and before that it was within the territories of the British Mandate, and before that, under Ottoman rule. Israel seized Gaza from occupiers, then withdrew completely from Gaza in 2005.

Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Kuwait, etc. each could have given their populations of refugees citizenship. They all refused to do so. They could have given land they occupied (Gaza, West Bank) to refugees. They all refused to do so.

In the case of the United States, having the land, the resources, and the internationally recognized right to self-rule has encouraged assimilation. In the case of Israel, a nation is trying to protect all the people of the nation within the boundaries of an extremely limited plot of land. In addition to living within the boundaries, Israel is met with continual opposition when it asserts its right to defend itself against the neighbors from whom they’re shielding themselves. They simply do not have the room or the resources to support all the refugees who want to live in the only democracy in the region.

What do you think would happen to the people of Israel if they did not fight for their own right to independence? What would happen if they said, "Oh, okay. We'll move out of our own land and let in the third generation of the people who fled nearly a century ago. We'll give them our fish farms, our agricultural advances, our universities, our museums, our holy places. No problem. We'll just go to..."
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Last edited by gardencurls; 11-19-2012 at 12:40 AM.
Clearly I wasn't talking about the English version of al-Jazeera.
Originally Posted by gardencurls
Clearly you weren't clear or I wouldn't have felt the need to point it out.

... and I would never rely solely on information from only one source.
Originally Posted by gardencurls
Who said you did, or should? I didn't see that asserted by anyone.


As for the rest, there are plenty of people who disagree with your take on them.

Last edited by wild~hair; 11-19-2012 at 04:11 AM.
What do you think would happen to the people of Israel if they did not fight for their own right to independence? What would happen if they said, "Oh, okay. We'll move out of our own land and let in the third generation of the people who fled nearly a century ago. We'll give them our fish farms, our agricultural advances, our universities, our museums, our holy places. No problem. We'll just go to..."
Originally Posted by gardencurls
A wrong would be righted, that's what.

Two wrong do not make a right. Never have, never will.

I find it extremely sad that when a people undergo a great trauma, it does not prevent them inflicting similar trauma on others. And yet it happens again and again throughout our history.

Still doesn't make it right.
But where are they supposed to go? Seriously? Kicking all the Jews out of Israel and dismantling the state is not a workable solution. Ending the occupation would not be enough for you? Working toward a two-state solution would not be enough for you, either? These friends who you trust to tell you about the area, do they have to live there?

Maybe it's moot, anyway. As others have said, it seems that we are not heading toward an end to the occupation or a two-state solution. Nobody will compromise. Very discouraging. I thought we were actually getting closer, a few years back.
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What do you think would happen to the people of Israel if they did not fight for their own right to independence? What would happen if they said, "Oh, okay. We'll move out of our own land and let in the third generation of the people who fled nearly a century ago. We'll give them our fish farms, our agricultural advances, our universities, our museums, our holy places. No problem. We'll just go to..."
Originally Posted by gardencurls
A wrong would be righted, that's what.

Two wrong do not make a right. Never have, never will.

I find it extremely sad that when a people undergo a great trauma, it does not prevent them inflicting similar trauma on others. And yet it happens again and again throughout our history.

Still doesn't make it right.
Originally Posted by wild~hair
What wrong would be "righted"? Explain the dynamics here. You sound like that senile old bat Helen Thomas (who is of Lebanese descent.) She's great with accusations, but what about solutions?

When you insist that Israelis have no rights to their homes, their communities, and their historical places aren't you taking the attitude toward Israelis that you accuse Israelis of having toward Palestinians? Is Poland supposed to "give Prussia back" to Prussia? Should Ukraine be a Soviet state? Should Ireland be part of the UK? Should Tibet be part of China?

If PLO groups like Fatah, then HAMAS shot rockets at your home, and murdered your family and friends for decades, wouldn't it get old?

So many lies...i.e. "A video at CNN with reporting by Sara Sidner from Gaza tells us "how a small child became a symbol of civilian casualties." Some of her narrative: "A scene no parent should ever have to endure"; "Four year-old Mahmoud Sadallah lies dead in the arms of a neighbor, a child of Gaza, another victim of an airstrike"; "we saw no evidence here of military activity." There's even a scene where Ms. Sidner reports having to flee where she is currently reporting because "there are airstrikes" and "rockets." Since Hamas doesn't have an air force, we're supposed to assume that Israel's military is responsible for Mahmoud's death.Hamas has once again apparently been caught faking an image of a dead Palestinian child--this time using a child likely killed by its own rocket fire and claiming that an Israeli attack was responsible. CNN's Sara Sidner ran a full report on the child's death, strongly implying that an Israeli bomb had been responsible.

The dead child was paraded before the cameras during the visit of Egyptian prime minister Hisham Kandil, who kissed the dead child in the presence of Hamas prime minister Ismail Haniyeh. But even the New York Times was suspicious.

... the fact that Hamas and other terror groups were firing rockets throughout Friday morning while the IDF did not, plus the fact that over 100 rockets have fallen short in Gaza (both using past performance and IDF statistics as proof), and the fact that the shrapnel in the video matches almost exactly the shrapnel damage we have seen from rocket fire into Israel, and it is very clear: this child was killed by Gaza rocket fire, not by Israel.

According to the office of Israeli prime minister Benjamin Netanyahu, 60 of the 703 rockets fired by Hamas and other terror groups since the start of the conflict have fallen on Palestinian civilians. The Israel Defense Force says that 99 rockets in total that were fired at Israel have hit Gaza itself in four days of conflict.

Several sources now report that the child was, in fact, killed by a Hamas rocket, not Israel. Those sources include the Palestinian Center for Human Rights."
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I hate this fight. Israel just exhausts me, on so many levels in my life.

The last thing I want is to have friction with people here on NC. This is usually a haven of inspiration for me, and you all make me smile every day.

I apologize to anyone if I've offended or seemed insulting. It's actually good for me, personally, to read the intelligent, caring, honest responses of people who won't provide "canned" answers. I need to discuss this with people who have different perspectives, and,

wild-hair, you are absolutely right about al-Jazeera providing a voice that needs to be heard.

Recently many Jewish scholars have been studying and publishing "New Testament" or "Greek Bible" annotations, study guides, etc. I bought one, and I downloaded it onto my phone and started reading it. I swear I felt like I was 6 and my mother had just caught me stealing in a market. I kept looking over my shoulder, half expecting my mother to emerge from a dark corner and zero in on my reading material. I'm 46 years old for cripes sake.

I had that knee jerk response to mention of al-Jazeera. It's a silly thing. As a mother I need to be better than that.
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I hate to see this happening - again. I'm tired of the USA kissing up to Israel. If we dare say something the least bit critical, then we're anti-semetic. That said, Israel has the right to exist and to defend itself. Seems to me the only option is some kind of two-state solution with the 1967 borders (maybe).
i cant help but feel like, Isreal is the kid on the playground bullying palestine. Sometimes palesine fights back and may even initiate the fight, but Isreal is still the bigger of the two and have more friends who will back them up. Even the school's principal will let Isreal get way with bullying. The rules are set, but then Isreal breaks them, and when Palestine fights back, they are the bad guys.

I feel like America is letting their friend be mean to this other kid, but at the same time claims to want them to get along. I dont think allowing Isreal to get away with being a big bully is going to led to peace. It will just lead to resentment from the bullied country and whatever allies they have. i think this could had been avoided along time ago. When Isreal would break the rules adn try to be a bully, instead of letting the bully be a bully, they should had called isreal on its ish, told them flat out, "we wouldnt let other countries do this, we wont let you do this!" But instead Isreal got a free pass to be a bully.

The people who are left to suffer are the innocent civilains on both sides. I saw a bit of a documetary a while ago. never got to finish it maybe someone here has seen it and can tell me the name. i cant really remember the details, but I will try my best. The isreal gov/army was moving onto the palestines side (which they were not suppose to do) and they were going to take away an old man's home (or tear it down or something like that). and the people, palestine and israelis alike stood up against the army to try to save the old mans home. I remember the old man was in a chair in front of the army to protect his home. the bit I seen of it, made me realize that the people of the area wants peace, its the idiots in charge who are ruining all of their lives. I say we put them all in a Hunger games type of situation and while they are trying to survive, we let the people live in peace.
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i cant help but feel like, Isreal is the kid on the playground bullying palestine. Sometimes palesine fights back and may even initiate the fight...
Originally Posted by thelio
I agree that Israel has committed horrors, but this statement is so completely untrue that I feel compelled to try to summarize the information provided to me through US History throughout my life. "Palestine" never initiated fighting. "Palestine" is not the PLO, or Fatah, or HAMAS. "Palestine" does not have a military. "Palestine" is not a state, or a political entity.

I am not trying to excuse any horrors executed on either side of the temporary demarcation lines, but part of the reason this ongoing violence is so confusing is that many people are unfamiliar with what is actually going on. Many false statements are made about the geography and political history in that part of the world, as well as the groups that are actually doing the fighting. Right now, the fighting is between HAMAS, (the de facto government of the Gaza Strip since they began occupying the area in 2005), and Israel. It is absolutely impossible to form fair opinions of the situation when the situation is misinterpreted on its most basic level.

Prior to 1918 The geographical areas now called Israel, along with Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, West Bank, Golan Heights, Gaza Strip and parts of Turkey and Iraq. were one geopolitical called Ottoman Syria, and were under Ottoman rule. An area called "Palestine" was never ruled as a single unit. After WWI, the British became the governors of the area. The British divided the area for administrative purposes, separating the Tranjordan from the specific area they called "Palestine" from the Roman title, Palestina, which was derived from Philistines (an ancient people group of the region). The area was called British Mandatory Palestine until 1948 when the British turned over rule to the brand new state of Israel.

The problem for the last 64 years is a result from a United Nations degree that was only half enforced.The United Nations supported the declaration of Israel as a state, and, at the time claimed they would also grant an independent state to the Arab population that either refused to assimilate into Israel, or was forced out of Israel. The Arab population declared war on Israel, so the UN refused to support them. These people, the Arab refugees of British Palestine, have never been allowed citizenship in any other countries of the Arab world, so, basically they have lived as refugees in lands administered by other countries; Egypt governed Gaza, Jordan annexed the West Bank, etc. The Arab countries will govern areas inhabited by the refugees, but they refuse to grant them citizenship or legal rights.

This population of Arab refugees began calling themselves Palestinians in the 1960s, because they originated in British Mandatory Palestine. From 1948 to today, these people are in a similar place in their national identity where Jews were at the turn of the 20th century. In the last 64 years, as a result of being denied citizenship in every country of the Arab world, they have lived as refugees in various places in the middle east. All these places were "occupied" by other states, i.e. Gaza was under Egyptian rule until 1968. (Jordan occupied other areas now considered "Palestinian").

In 1964, while Gaza was under Egyptian rule, the Palestinian Liberation Organization (PLO), an internationally designated terrorist organization, was formed. After decades of fighting most of the Arab world (i.e. Lebanon, Jordan, etc.) with terrorist techniques. The defeat of Syria, Jordan and Egypt in the Six Day War of 1967 destroyed the credibility of Arab states that had fought to be patrons for a Palestinian nationalist cause. Israel annexed the Gaza Strip. Even though Israel seized territories (in the formerly "nationalistic" way, like Prussia becoming Germany and Poland, the US gaining all its territories) the UN refused to let Israel claim areas seized in war as part of its governing territory. Israel withdrew from Gaza in 2005, in order to move forward with the peace process by either creating two independent states, or assimilating into one state with equal rights for all citizens.

Since the 1960s there are been many, many clashes with the PLO throughout the Middle East. In Israel, they include the Intifadas. I haven't even mentioned the regions of the West Bank and Golan Heights, etc. It's an incredibly complicated situation.

You may recall the Oslo Accords establishing the Palestinian National Authority? Clearly Israel has been working toward peace, but every single time they make progress, some sort of violence, usually religious in origin, causes a major setback. Sadly, the assassination of Rabin at a Peace Rally in 2003 threw the region once again into chaos. Have you read the news over the last decades showing the US and the UN attempting to make peaceful resolutions in order to stop the wars in the area and give the Palestinian people their own state, at last? Remember President Carter? President Clinton?

Well, terrorist organizations still harbor themselves within Palestinian refugee territories, so the UN still views the territories as hostile regions. Hostile regions cannot be granted independence. The people who have become "the Nation of Palestine" are literally sacrificial pawns of zealot terrorists who hate the Western world, and consider any people that aren't part of their version of Islam to be "infidels".

Israel with its current boundaries is landlocked between two areas governed by FATAH on one end, and HAMAS on the other. Israel is attempting negotiations with the UN in order to make the UN keep their promise on states having the right to "defensible borders". A landlocked area between two governments that have been hostile, or are currently hostile, is not "defensible".

Since Israel's withdrawal from Gaza, HAMAS has shot thousands and thousand of rockets and bombs into Israel (as explained in previous posts).Israel isn't randomly picking on the weakling in the corner.

In order for the Palestinians ever to be able to finally declare their independence, and to self-govern, they need to be free of HAMAS and any other terrorist organizations who might harbor among them.

After that the UN will be able to establish borders, and only then, will the UN recognize and support an independent state called Palestine, as a homeland for the Palestinian people.
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Last edited by gardencurls; 11-20-2012 at 03:21 PM.
I hate to see this happening - again. I'm tired of the USA kissing up to Israel. If we dare say something the least bit critical, then we're anti-semetic. That said, Israel has the right to exist and to defend itself. Seems to me the only option is some kind of two-state solution with the 1967 borders (maybe).
Originally Posted by Myradella3
Palestinians are Semites.

The US has been victimized by the same terrorist groups that continue to attack Israel from where they harbor themselves in Gaza. If the UN would stop declaring the Palestinians as "hostile" the Palestinian people could form a state within the borders drawn by the UN!
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Last edited by gardencurls; 11-20-2012 at 03:19 PM.
Everyone's okay on my side. My mom's friend, who's a dentist, has cancelled all appointments for a few days- she's in Beer Sheba. Her daughter had a rocket fall right in front of her apartment building and she was spooked and went to go stay with them but nobody was hurt.

My family in Rehovot is also okay. They heard the bomb in Rishon but it wasn't anybody they know that was hurt.
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