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I actually had more issue with the undercurrent of undocumented immigrants purposely avoiding the law, instead of trying to "right their wrong", when so many undocumented immigrants do nothing but work super hard, often in terrible conditions and for terrible compensation. Not to mention the paying of taxes and just generally contributing to society, while being unable to enjoy the benefits due to their legal status.
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Not "trusting" someone implies that a person is dishonest or underhanded. I don't think that someone who enters a country without papers is automatically a dishonest or untrustworthy person.
Originally Posted by Amneris

Right, this is what I was assuming what was meant.
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I actually had more issue with the undercurrent of undocumented immigrants purposely avoiding the law, instead of trying to "right their wrong", when so many undocumented immigrants do nothing but work super hard, often in terrible conditions and for terrible compensation. Not to mention the paying of taxes and just generally contributing to society, while being unable to enjoy the benefits due to their legal status.
Originally Posted by Saria

I've always wondered about that: some undocumented people who work here do so w/ fake IDs. Where they get them from, IDK but they have SS (or other retirement system) payments deducted from their paychecks.

Are these the SSNs of deceased people or living people or just contrived numbers? If they already belong to someone else, how do the extra contributions not show up annually on their taxes? And will they retire with much bigger contributions? Or are they not recorded at all bc the names are different?

If they are fake SSNs, how does that get past the IRS? How do they have payments going nowhere? Or does the IRS know about these payments and just appropriate the money esewhere?

Or can undocumented people retire and legitimately claim retirement benefits?
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SL, why do you ask(original question)? Just curious .
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I actually had more issue with the undercurrent of undocumented immigrants purposely avoiding the law, instead of trying to "right their wrong", when so many undocumented immigrants do nothing but work super hard, often in terrible conditions and for terrible compensation. Not to mention the paying of taxes and just generally contributing to society, while being unable to enjoy the benefits due to their legal status.
Originally Posted by Saria
I hope you weren't quoting me because I was talking about righting the government's wrong not that the person who is here illegally was doing anything wrong (in the example I was using).
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I actually had more issue with the undercurrent of undocumented immigrants purposely avoiding the law, instead of trying to "right their wrong", when so many undocumented immigrants do nothing but work super hard, often in terrible conditions and for terrible compensation. Not to mention the paying of taxes and just generally contributing to society, while being unable to enjoy the benefits due to their legal status.
Originally Posted by Saria

I've always wondered about that: some undocumented people who work here do so w/ fake IDs. Where they get them from, IDK but they have SS (or other retirement system) payments deducted from their paychecks.

Are these the SSNs of deceased people or living people or just contrived numbers? If they already belong to someone else, how do the extra contributions not show up annually on their taxes? And will they retire with much bigger contributions? Or are they not recorded at all bc the names are different?

If they are fake SSNs, how does that get past the IRS? How do they have payments going nowhere? Or does the IRS know about these payments and just appropriate the money esewhere?

Or can undocumented people retire and legitimately claim retirement benefits?
Originally Posted by spiderlashes5000
In my son-in-law's case, for some reason he had a taxpayer ID number that was issued to him when he first came. His parents, too. Almost as if the US knew they were going to overstay their visa?

So when he was a bartender (like probably most bartenders) he was payed in cash and just didn't report. But when he started working in his actual field, which is building specialty computers, his boss payed him as a consultant. At the end of the year he applied for his green card and payed all his back taxes-- about $5,000.


Obamacare is not a blueprint for socialism. You're thinking of the New Testament. ~~ John Fugelsang



I use to do auto loans. I came across quite a few fake driver's licenses and SSNs that belong to someone else. I would run a credit report and I also had a person at the license bureau who I could call up and give her the dl# and name and she will tell me if it belong to that person. She couldn't tell me who it actually belong to. To me this is identity theft and I could never understand why my company didn't report it.

As for my trust issue....I personally have trust issues with any man, so that is why I wouldn't feel comfortable with someone who wasn't here legally. I would question his intentions. Sorry, if I offended anyone for not being more clear. I've been going thru counselling for this very issue. I have a wonderful man in my life and I don't want to screw it up.
I actually had more issue with the undercurrent of undocumented immigrants purposely avoiding the law, instead of trying to "right their wrong", when so many undocumented immigrants do nothing but work super hard, often in terrible conditions and for terrible compensation. Not to mention the paying of taxes and just generally contributing to society, while being unable to enjoy the benefits due to their legal status.
Originally Posted by Saria
I've always wondered about that: some undocumented people who work here do so w/ fake IDs. Where they get them from, IDK but they have SS (or other retirement system) payments deducted from their paychecks.

Are these the SSNs of deceased people or living people or just contrived numbers? If they already belong to someone else, how do the extra contributions not show up annually on their taxes? And will they retire with much bigger contributions? Or are they not recorded at all bc the names are different?

If they are fake SSNs, how does that get past the IRS? How do they have payments going nowhere? Or does the IRS know about these payments and just appropriate the money esewhere?

Or can undocumented people retire and legitimately claim retirement benefits?
Originally Posted by spiderlashes5000
I cannot answer for the others, but I know my sister-in-law had a SSN of a live person who actually tracked her down at work and told her to stop using her SSN so she could get her TANF and Food Stamps.

*Warning*
Assumptions are happening from here on out.

Depending on how much money is recorded as working income to the IRS, they may not have to file at all. For single filing status, anybody up to age 65, if they make under $9500 in earned income, they are not required to file. Anybody over 65, it's $10950. For head of household filing status, it's $12,200 up to 65, $13650 after. For married filing jointly, up to age 65, joint earned income has to be less than $19000, after age 65, it's $20150 if only one spouse made the money, $21300 if they both worked after age 65. For married filing separately, it's $3700 in income for the filer regardless of age. For a widow w/ a dependent child up to age 65, it's $15300, after age 65 it's $16450.

So if the person using a live person's SSN and makes less than the earned income required to file taxes, they may never find out. And yeah, my assumption would be that they can claim whatever benefits were taken out in their SSN.
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Last edited by SunshineGrrl; 12-20-2012 at 09:59 AM. Reason: Incomplete thought process
SL, why do you ask(original question)? Just curious .
Originally Posted by Josephine
It's got to do w/ a gf of mine. I posted about her a few yrs ago.

I don't want to come of judgy or overly involved in her life...believe me, I would never actually share these thoughts w/ her bc she is not asking for my opinion.

But she met a guy who originally came here on a work visa and let it expire. When she met him, he was here illegaly and working in a low level position bc he no longer had a valid work visa. They dated, got married and corrected his immigration status, he quickly got promoted, got his US citizenship and divorced her after 5 years. No one really knows why or if he had been using her all along or just fell out of love or whatever.

So after a grieving process, she happened to meet another guy from the same country. But he never had a visa. He just decided to try his luck and come here as a teenager. He's been here and an off but has no papers whatsoever or any kind of plan of how to correct his status.

He has been dating my friend for about 3 years now and they are living together. They seem to really be in love and all...and it's none of my business. But things come up in their relationhip that she mentions...he can't fly so they have to drive everywhere...or rather, she has to drive bc he has a phoney DL; he only drives to his jobs...which are low paying and offer no benefits (tho he pays into SS) and keep him grinding about 16 hours a day.

She wants to buy a house with him but isn't sure if she can include his income on the loan app. She is already on record w/ the Immigration Office as having married someone who was here legally. And based on conversations w/ friends of theirs who are in the same situation, if there were never any papers, attorneys have told them their chances of getting him legal staus is slim to none and could require him to return to his home country for a couple of years.

She's getting older and wants to start a family soon but is worried that hecould be deported and would have to raise their kids alone.

Is she, personally, at risk if they get married and he is apprehended?

I just wonder how people can do this to themseves and each other and not have the whole relationship fraught w/ anxiety.
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Last edited by spiderlashes5000; 12-20-2012 at 10:06 AM.
SL, why do you ask(original question)? Just curious .
Originally Posted by Josephine
It's got to do w/ a gf of mine. I posted about her a few yrs ago.

I don't want to come of judgy or overly involved in her life...believe me, I would never actually share these thoughts w/ her bc she is not asking for my opinion.

But she met a guy who originally came here on a work visa and let it expire. When she met him, he was here illegaly and working in a low level position bc he no longer had a valid work visa. They dated, got married and corrected his immigration status, he quickly got promoted, got his US citizenship and divorced her after 5 years. No one really knows why or if he had been using her all along or just fell out of love or whatever.

So after a grieving process, she happened to meet another guy from the same country. But he never had a visa. He just decided to try his luck and come here as a teenager. He's been here and an off but has no papers whatsoever or any kind of plan of how to correct his status.

He has been dating my friend for about 3 years now and they are living together. They seem to really be in love and all...and it's none of my business. But things come up in their relationhip that she mentions...he can't fly so they have to drive everywhere...or rather, she has to drive bc he has a phoney DL; he only drives to his jobs...which are low paying and offer no benefits (tho he pays into SS) and keep him grinding about 16 hours a day.

She wants to buy a house with him but isn't sure if she can include his income on the loan app. She is already on record w/ the Immigration Office as having married someone who was here legally. And based on conversations w/ friends of theirs who are in the same situation, if there were never any papers, attorneys have told them their chances of getting him legal staus is slim to none and could require him to return to his home country for a couple of years.

She's getting older and wants to start a family soon but is worried that hecould be deported and would have to raise their kids alone.

Is she, personally, at risk if they get married and he is apprehended?

I just wonder how people can do this to themseves and each other and not have the whole relationship fraught w/ anxiety.
Originally Posted by spiderlashes5000
Yea that really sucks. Reminds me of my situation but I think at least my ex had documentation at one point at let it expire. Personally I think if you pay the right amount you can find a lawyer to let you stay. It will cost a lot though, over 10k. That's how my ex's friend was able to get his wife back so early.

Also in my situation, I was carefree and in my early 20s. I still had the same worries though and yes he had a ****ty job paying nearly nothing working long hours. At least back then his license was valid and he could fly. I was getting frustrated towards the end, not only because we were growing apart but with the new laws making it harder for him to do anything. It didn't help.
The IRS really doesn't care about your immigration status as long as they get their cut, hence taxpayer ID's.

As for the trust issue, I am a brutally unromantic woman, and there's a long list of qualities that I distrust. If I were rich, I'd probably have issues marrying anyone who wasn't also rich. I mean, sure, maybe I'd fall in love so much that my practical side will become mute, but until that happens, I'm not taking any chances.
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But she met a guy who originally came here on a work visa and let it expire. When she met him, he was here illegaly and working in a low level position bc he no longer had a valid work visa. They dated, got married and corrected his immigration status, he quickly got promoted, got his US citizenship and divorced her after 5 years. No one really knows why or if he had been using her all along or just fell out of love or whatever.
Originally Posted by spiderlashes5000
Not trying to argue, promise. I know it's impossible to know for her. Maybe a bit of comfort for her or you?

My brother married my illegal sister-in-law something like 15 years ago (I don't know what the true number is, but it's dang close if it's not 15 years). They were genuinely in love. I guess you could have called me their chaperone. He took me most everywhere they went. I don't know if it was required by her parents or not, but I was pretty much there the whole time, so I know it was really love on both sides.

They got her legal, she had a good job for a while, then they decided to have a family. Everybody but me is pretty traditional in the fact that women stay home and take care of the kids while the husband provides. She got her citizenship about 5 years ago. Now they're having problems. It's kind of out of the blue and kind of not (the situation has probably always been there, but my brother decided to be proactive and stop it). So I think it's entirely possible that your friend's ex really married for love. I'm usually a cynic about this kind of stuff, but I really want to give anybody who gets married and has events like your friend's the benefit of the doubt.

I don't know how it's going to end, but they're still trying to work stuff out right now. She's wonderful and I love her to death, so I hope everything turns out okay.
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This area is under construction as my hair type changed and nothing works well for me. I shampoo, I condition and pretty much have done nothing but chuck my hair in a messy bun for the past oh...year? Yeah, I'm that lazy.

No...going no-poo or CG does not work for me. It leaves me overconditioned and oily in a second no matter what I use, so that's not what's not working.
I actually had more issue with the undercurrent of undocumented immigrants purposely avoiding the law, instead of trying to "right their wrong", when so many undocumented immigrants do nothing but work super hard, often in terrible conditions and for terrible compensation. Not to mention the paying of taxes and just generally contributing to society, while being unable to enjoy the benefits due to their legal status.
Originally Posted by Saria

I've always wondered about that: some undocumented people who work here do so w/ fake IDs. Where they get them from, IDK but they have SS (or other retirement system) payments deducted from their paychecks.

Are these the SSNs of deceased people or living people or just contrived numbers? If they already belong to someone else, how do the extra contributions not show up annually on their taxes? And will they retire with much bigger contributions? Or are they not recorded at all bc the names are different?

If they are fake SSNs, how does that get past the IRS? How do they have payments going nowhere? Or does the IRS know about these payments and just appropriate the money esewhere?

Or can undocumented people retire and legitimately claim retirement benefits?
Originally Posted by spiderlashes5000
Most people I came in contact with on my old job did have the required, and issued, ITIN (individual tax identification number) assigned to them. I didn't do tax returns, but help set people up to meet with tax prep's. This was a over 10 years ago, but if I remember correctly federal law states that the IRS is not allowed to share information with anyone (homeland security, etc) about ITIN numbers so no info can be given/used as a means of removal.

I do know that some run businesses where they make other fake forms of ID. Well, I should say I have *heard*. I have heard horror stories about some of these types of operations. Incredibly steep fee's, sometimes threats involved, all kinds of stuff. I would assume numbers are taken from many sources, and some bits of information are often duplicated (and beyond) with individuals.
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Last edited by Fifi.G; 12-20-2012 at 01:15 PM.
ive must have proprositioned at least 10 times in the past to marry a Viet woman from relatives, friends and co-workers. i was enticed with beautiful photos of the ladies or up to 50,000$. i declined them all saying i wanted to marry for love. silly me

as for working immigrants employers have a way of getting around the SSN situation. otherwise California restautants would lose about 70% of its workforce

Last edited by OBB; 12-20-2012 at 01:11 PM.
ive must have proprositioned at least 10 times in the past to marry a Viet woman from relatives, friends and co-workers. i was enticed with beautiful photos of the ladies or up to 50,000$. i declined them all saying i wanted to marry for love. silly me

as for working immigrants employers have a way of getting around the SSN situation. otherwise California restautants would lose about 70% of its workforce
Originally Posted by OBB
Explain?
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It would depend on his situation and his intentions. Some people live in a country illegally for reasons that are less honourable while some are here due to more understandable issues. It would really depend on how well I knew the person and how I felt about him. I have seen a lot of stories of people using love to get citizenship into a country and they can be rather convincing when they need to be so I would have to feel that trust was not an issue.

If I loved the person deeply and I wanted to share my life with him then he would have to want to become a citizen and a productive member of society and have some qualifications, I couldn't handle someone who wanted to stay here and do nothing but mooch off of me. I prefer men who are driven and have goals I can share in. You also have to consider that deportation could still occur even after marriage and how the relationship would work out then.

What irks me is that people call immigrants illegal aliens! I understand they may be illegal but alien? That is dehumanizing in my opinion.
It would depend on his situation and his intentions. Some people live in a country illegally for reasons that are less honourable while some are here due to more understandable issues. It would really depend on how well I knew the person and how I felt about him. I have seen a lot of stories of people using love to get citizenship into a country and they can be rather convincing when they need to be so I would have to feel that trust was not an issue.

If I loved the person deeply and I wanted to share my life with him then he would have to want to become a citizen and a productive member of society and have some qualifications, I couldn't handle someone who wanted to stay here and do nothing but mooch off of me. I prefer men who are driven and have goals I can share in. You also have to consider that deportation could still occur even after marriage and how the relationship would work out then.

What irks me is that people call immigrants illegal aliens! I understand they may be illegal but alien? That is dehumanizing in my opinion.
Originally Posted by Ericachristina
Even people here legally who aren't citizens are/were called "resident aliens!"
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ive must have proprositioned at least 10 times in the past to marry a Viet woman from relatives, friends and co-workers. i was enticed with beautiful photos of the ladies or up to 50,000$. i declined them all saying i wanted to marry for love. silly me

as for working immigrants employers have a way of getting around the SSN situation. otherwise California restautants would lose about 70% of its workforce
Originally Posted by OBB
Explain?
Originally Posted by spiderlashes5000

it was something a manager once confided in me but when i pressed him for more because i was genuinely curious he declined. im guessing its a loophole that companies use to retain undocumented employees.
It would depend on his situation and his intentions. Some people live in a country illegally for reasons that are less honourable while some are here due to more understandable issues. It would really depend on how well I knew the person and how I felt about him. I have seen a lot of stories of people using love to get citizenship into a country and they can be rather convincing when they need to be so I would have to feel that trust was not an issue.

If I loved the person deeply and I wanted to share my life with him then he would have to want to become a citizen and a productive member of society and have some qualifications, I couldn't handle someone who wanted to stay here and do nothing but mooch off of me. I prefer men who are driven and have goals I can share in. You also have to consider that deportation could still occur even after marriage and how the relationship would work out then.

What irks me is that people call immigrants illegal aliens! I understand they may be illegal but alien? That is dehumanizing in my opinion.
Originally Posted by Ericachristina
Even people here legally who aren't citizens are/were called "resident aliens!"
Originally Posted by spiderlashes5000
I used the term "illegal alien". I didn't mean any disrespect by it, but reading through this thread I can definitely see that "undocumented worker" is a better term!

Maybe I'm more pragmatic than most people here? I'm trying to figure out why this is a total dealbreaker for me but apparently not too many other people. The idea that my husband/father of my future children could be deported is a level of uncertainty I could not willingly undertake. It has nothing to do with trust or personal character.

The situations that I know of in which people were deported were very sad and I'm sure if there had been a legal (or financial) means of keeping the families together it would have been done. But it wasn't, which in my mind means that you can't always buy your way out of this unfortunate situation.

I also have a question to those who said the right lawyer can sort this out - is this only true AFTER the person has married an American? There is no way to do this before marriage?


I also have a question to those who said the right lawyer can sort this out - is this only true AFTER the person has married an American? There is no way to do this before marriage?
Originally Posted by mad scientist
My sister used to be a paralegal at a community law center. When she asked an immigration attorney about my son in law (before he was my son in law) what we could do to help him the lawyer said, "He has to get married."


Obamacare is not a blueprint for socialism. You're thinking of the New Testament. ~~ John Fugelsang



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