Amneris

Well, Liz Taylor is white, so clearly Cleopatra was white and looked just like that.

Seriously, one of my pet peeves is white people who bring up that "there are white Africans." WE KNOW. They as a group are responsible for apartheid, taking all the good land, torturing the Mau Maus, various colonial crimes, setting up slave systems, bringing in missionaries to take away peoples' culture.... They're disproportionately living off the wealth of the continent and appropriating culture when they feel like it. (Note I am speaking as a whole, systemically, not about individuals.)

When white people say "not all Africans are Black", what they are really saying is, our need to cling to white privilege is so great that we have to extend it even into the one place where there is a Black majority and we have to deny Black people even the right to claim the most ravaged and raped continent on earth as their own because we cannot stand there to be any thing in existence we do not get to impose our selves upon and control.

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Get used to me. Black, confident, cocky; my name, not yours; my religion, not yours; my goals, my own; get used to me. -Muhammad Ali

thelio

YES! YES! YES! YES!!!

yes there are white people in africa, but don't forget how they got there, and why they went!

sew and sew

I'm mostly expecting that the following will be perceived as whining, from someone in the entitled class by virtue of my white skin color..but I'll put it out here anyway:

The "omggg white people when will you learn?" part makes me feel uncomfortable given the vibe this board values having. There's a desire to be politically correct, progressive minded, etc.

Here, I know that if someone were to talk about a behavior and say "_____ (non-white) people when will you learn?" it would stand out. It would seem offensive. And that would be understandable.

But the logic that seems to prevail here is that there's no respect-worthy reason for someone white to object to your phrasing.

I don't understand why that is.

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“It was only a sunny smile and little it cost in the giving but like morning light it scattered the night and made the day worth living.” - F. Scott Fitzgerald

murrrcat

This is what I think, or when a man hits on a black woman and calls her a Nubian Princess or Queen (smDh).

I never hear anyone going around just saying American Queen, or queen as a term for woman.
So, when someone says African queen I'm not going to imagine some white woman. That's just reaching. Yes there are white people in Africa, NOBODY IS STUPID. Even Stupid people have seen mean girls enough to know, there are white people in Africa. get a life.



quit reaching yo. Stawp.

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Amneris

She's clearly talking about the people who put on black/brown/yellow face or think it is OK, and these people are white. The comment in its context obviously refers to white people who think there are times blackface is OK. The concept of blackface was developed by white people and they're the ones using it. People who desire and try to be progressive-minded don't fall into this category and the remark wasn't directed at them.

__________________
Get used to me. Black, confident, cocky; my name, not yours; my religion, not yours; my goals, my own; get used to me. -Muhammad Ali

thelio

i take issue with the fact they put a white woman on the cover of a magazine called Africa Queen, then put her in black face. if they had just put a white women, i would had been a bit taken aback, but still what ever. but the fact they put her in black face!!! WTF!?!?!!?

i'm not speaking for everybody, this is just my feelings. This is just wrong!

i dont know what the editorail was going for. but they completely missed it! if they were celebrating africa women, they missed it by using an american model. if they were celebrating queens, they missed it by not dressing her as a queen. they obviously were going the the brown skinned african queens. how do i come to this? because they gave her black face!

sarah42

When I hear African Queen, I think of this song: 2Face - African Queen [Video] - YouTube

I've been singing it in my head all day.

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thelio

this is how the models looks when not in black face, so no one can say she was just tanned1 no she is in black face!

sew and sew

If I was talking about a behavior carried out by some non-whites who could be identified with a more specific ethnic or racial label, and that was implicit, and I concluded with a last line of "_____ people when will you learn?" my clear context wouldn't be enough for that not to read a little off.

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“It was only a sunny smile and little it cost in the giving but like morning light it scattered the night and made the day worth living.” - F. Scott Fitzgerald

annabananalise

This x infinity. I just about to write this but you beat me to it! Thanks haha

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Amneris

Oh Lord. No. The two are not equivalent. "A behaviour carried out by some non-whites" is not the same as a systemic exhibiting of power and privilege to degrade and define and dehumanize others. There is no equivalent for "non-whites" because we don't hold power and privilege. Comments about "white people" who are the privileged minority and that refer to racist behaviour by white people aren't equal to whatever generalizing and stereotyping of people of colour you might be referring to.

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Get used to me. Black, confident, cocky; my name, not yours; my religion, not yours; my goals, my own; get used to me. -Muhammad Ali

murrrcat

This^.

And by saying that they are equivalent is pretty much an example of white privilege itself!

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annabananalise

Well to be frank because you're talking about a marginalized group and you're white. And thus your words are practically laden with privilege.

And this isn't just a behavior, it's a practice used for years to ridicule and dehumanize POC and always always perpetuated by white people who have systematically dehumanized POC for centuries.

So when I say "get it together white people" and white people take it personally they either a) don't history at all, or b) care more about how it isn't "fair" that POC can say these things and they can't with out judgement (but we still get judged by white people so they win. again.) than the fact that blackface and other -faces are still a thing. Which is the really unfair thing.


ETA: Amneris beat me again oop

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sew and sew

I wonder if anyone who was part of producing that thought that it could be interpreted positively...instead of a western ideal of beauty being played into, you have a person playing into a (being forwarded as, at least*) Black African ideal. The fact she's not Black African herself is a welcomed reversal of the assumption that everyone, western or not, only finds western aesthetics worthy of playing into.

Whether the look is accurate to a Black African beauty/fashion ideal, I don't know.




Unrelated thought but if this looked exactly the same, except it was a Black African model, would it come across off on another note to anyone?

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“It was only a sunny smile and little it cost in the giving but like morning light it scattered the night and made the day worth living.” - F. Scott Fitzgerald

murrrcat

I don't know....if they wanted to play into a black African ideal they could of just used a black African person...

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sew and sew

Are you saying that a white person cannot be stung with the same intensity that a person of color can be, when generalizations are said about their skin color group?

As much as they think they're stung, they don't know what it's like coupled with systematic oppression at play? That dynamic will always necessarily make it a harsher sting.

Annabananalise, I feel like I should point out that I'm not assuming you were intending to generalize with a greater-than-contextual point. That's something I wanted to openly discuss, not chalk up one way or another absolutely. I'm looking at this as a "for sake of argument" discussion at this point.

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“It was only a sunny smile and little it cost in the giving but like morning light it scattered the night and made the day worth living.” - F. Scott Fitzgerald

spiderlashes5000

Well, yes, of course, it was a conescending remark on the part of annabananalise. But it was also an ahole move on the part of the fashion editor (and generations of White racists who preceded her).

***

This really isn't about a European vs African beauty ideal. It's an historically-old practice of mocking and disgracing Black ppl. It is an example of a very racist artform that is now almost unilaterally dismissed as an embarrassment.

It's so offensive that many antiques dealers and museums have destroyed these kinds of artifacts.

That someone would so flagrantly publish a picture like this is very offensive. And I believe Annabananalise is commenting on the audacity of certain White ppl to continue to participate in this stuff.

I don't believe this was an American magazine tho. I don't think European countries are as sensitive to some of this as we (Americans) are.

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sew and sew

But that wouldn't have the statement of reversing expectation of who wants to play into what ideal. I'm not sold by any means that's part of the thinking with those who produced it, do wonder though.

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“It was only a sunny smile and little it cost in the giving but like morning light it scattered the night and made the day worth living.” - F. Scott Fitzgerald

spiderlashes5000

As clever as that might have been, you just don't touch some things w/ a ten foot pole...unless you want to ruffle some feathers. Which the magazine did.

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annabananalise

Sew and sew I never thought your were being antagonistic. No worries.

Also western standards of beauty are the standards everywhere. Which is why all the famous African super models all have western features.

And yes what murr said, if dark african beauty was the look they were going for they could have gotten an actual dark african beauty. They have a pretty large resource over there. In africa.

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when will your favs?