African Queen editorial

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I don't know....if they wanted to play into a black African ideal they could of just used a black African person...
Originally Posted by murrrcat
But that wouldn't have the statement of reversing expectation of who wants to play into what ideal. I'm not sold by any means that's part of the thinking with those who produced it, do wonder though.
Originally Posted by sew and sew
As clever as that might have been, you just don't touch some things w/ a ten foot pole...unless you want to ruffle some feathers. Which the magazine did.
Originally Posted by spiderlashes5000
Agreed.

Anna - it's just a thought with very debatable legs. But again, using a Black African woman wouldn't work if that thought was actually in play.

What spiderlashes said about offense being present in the racist art form of it didn't cross my mind. If that's what people who're familiar with racist art like that are clearly seeing/it's unmistakable, then it's safe to say the thought doesn't apply.

The only way I assumed people were reacting to it was "so even when they want to honor Black African beauty they use a white woman, out of perception that her beauty is superior."

Which made me wonder if the shoot's team could have conceived of it like "here's a white woman who wants to capture Black African beauty." Western-idolizing behavior turned around. She's altering herself to fit the mold she's aspiring to. You couldn't send that message with a Black African model.
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God, all these butthurt comments about white people in Africa on that page! Damn. I bet these are the same people who would loose their **** if there was an editorial with a Black model that was titled "European Queen".
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Last edited by AnnieRose; 02-27-2013 at 04:34 PM.

But that wouldn't have the statement of reversing expectation of who wants to play into what ideal. I'm not sold by any means that's part of the thinking with those who produced it, do wonder though.
Originally Posted by sew and sew
As clever as that might have been, you just don't touch some things w/ a ten foot pole...unless you want to ruffle some feathers. Which the magazine did.
Originally Posted by spiderlashes5000
Agreed.

Anna - it's just a thought with very debatable legs. But again, using a Black African woman wouldn't work if that thought was actually in play.

What spiderlashes said about offense being present in the racist art form of it didn't cross my mind. If that's what people who're familiar with racist art like that are clearly seeing/it's unmistakable, then it's safe to say the thought doesn't apply.

The only way I assumed people were reacting to it was "so even when they want to honor Black African beauty they use a white woman, out of perception that her beauty is superior."

Which made me wonder if the shoot's team could have conceived of it like "here's a white woman who wants to capture Black African beauty." Western-idolizing behavior turned around. She's altering herself to fit the mold she's aspiring to. You couldn't send that message with a Black African model.
Originally Posted by sew and sew
I'm sorry but capturing Black African beauty isn't done by painting your skin black. What kind of ridiculousness....
There are people with dark skin all over the world - it isn't unique to Black Africans. The problem here is that once more the features associated with SSA's are avoided by using a white model (or most of the time a East African model because they tend to be closer to the Western standard of beauty). Those same features that are mocked and considered unattractive in the industry should be part of an editorial that wants to show their admiration of African beauty. But I really doubt that that was the intention here in the first place.
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Why aren’t there more minority models in the pages of fashion magazines

The answers are often disturbing, and speak to a form of racial bigotry found in the fashion centers of New York and London — as well as a deep-rooted aesthetic that equates prestige and elitism with stereotypical whiteness (and thin-ness).

Here are a few highly-revealing quotes from fashion industry employees, from an analysis of the industry by Ashley Mears, a sociologist and former model. Her article is called “Size zero high-end ethnic: Cultural production and the reproduction of culture in fashion modeling,” and was published in 2009. Mears kept the identities of her sources private.

“A lot of black girls have got very wide noses… The rest of her face is flat, therefore, in a flat image, your nose, it broadens in a photograph. It’s already wide, it looks humongous in the photograph. I think that’s, there’s an element of that, a lot of very beautiful black girls are moved out by their noses, some of them.” —H, London Agency Director

“But it’s also really hard to scout a good black girl. Because they have to have the right nose and the right bottom. Most black girls have wide noses and big bottoms so if you can find that right body and that right face, but it’s hard.” —A, NYC Agency Scout

“Okay let’s say Prada. You don’t have a huge amount of black people buying Prada. They can’t afford it. Okay so that’s economics there. So why put a black face? They put a white face, because those are the ones that buy the clothes.” —L, NYC Stylist

“We don’t like using the same model too often, but it’s harder to find ethnic girls. And…well, I don’t want to sound racist, but— well for Asians, it’s hard to find tall girls that will fit the clothes because most of them are very petit. For black girls, I guess—black girls have a harder edge kind of look, like if I’m shooting something really edgy, I’ll use a black girl, it always just depends on the clothes.” —A, NYC Magazine Editor

“Me personally, in my opinion, there really is no good, good, black girl around. The really good, good black girl around are still the same, and are still the one that everybody wants… It’s very difficult to find one. The agency don’t deliver enough choice to make happy the client [sic].” —O, NYC Casting Director

But that wouldn't have the statement of reversing expectation of who wants to play into what ideal. I'm not sold by any means that's part of the thinking with those who produced it, do wonder though.
Originally Posted by sew and sew
As clever as that might have been, you just don't touch some things w/ a ten foot pole...unless you want to ruffle some feathers. Which the magazine did.
Originally Posted by spiderlashes5000
Agreed.

Anna - it's just a thought with very debatable legs. But again, using a Black African woman wouldn't work if that thought was actually in play.

What spiderlashes said about offense being present in the racist art form of it didn't cross my mind. If that's what people who're familiar with racist art like that are clearly seeing/it's unmistakable, then it's safe to say the thought doesn't apply.

The only way I assumed people were reacting to it was "so even when they want to honor Black African beauty they use a white woman, out of perception that her beauty is superior."

Which made me wonder if the shoot's team could have conceived of it like "here's a white woman who wants to capture Black African beauty." Western-idolizing behavior turned around. She's altering herself to fit the mold she's aspiring to. You couldn't send that message with a Black African model.
Originally Posted by sew and sew
It might be similar to having the most lovely swastika in the world, embroidered with the finest silk thread onto the most glorious fabric...to showcase the beauty of the materials being used. But it's still a swatika. Materials and intention and craftship be damned. You just don't go there.
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God, all these butthurt comments about white people in Africa on that page! Damn. I bet these are the same people who would loose their **** if there was an editorial with a Black model that was titled "European Queen".
Originally Posted by AnnieRose
But there aren't black people in Europe!1! All monarchs have been white~~
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God, all these butthurt comments about white people in Africa on that page! Damn. I bet these are the same people who would loose their **** if there was an editorial with a Black model that was titled "European Queen".
Originally Posted by AnnieRose
But there aren't black people in Europe!1! All monarchs have been white~~
Originally Posted by annabananalise
Black people didn't even exist before 1968! GOSH!1!
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I don't know....if they wanted to play into a black African ideal they could of just used a black African person...
Originally Posted by murrrcat
I don't think there IS a "Black African" ideal - the beauty standard and general look is way different in, say Ethiopia as compared to Cameroon as compared to Uganda.
Get used to me. Black, confident, cocky; my name, not yours; my religion, not yours; my goals, my own; get used to me. -Muhammad Ali











I don't know....if they wanted to play into a black African ideal they could of just used a black African person...
Originally Posted by murrrcat
I don't think there IS a "Black African" ideal - the beauty standard and general look is way different in, say Ethiopia as compared to Cameroon as compared to Uganda.
Originally Posted by Amneris

no ...no, those don't count cause not enough white people live in those countries.
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Which made me wonder if the shoot's team could have conceived of it like "here's a white woman who wants to capture Black African beauty." Western-idolizing behavior turned around. She's altering herself to fit the mold she's aspiring to. You couldn't send that message with a Black African model.
Originally Posted by sew and sew
Except we're just not even close to a universe where that would actually be possible. In general, there are white women who want curly hair - to a point, but not the most tightly coiled or kinky hair - and want to be tan - to a point, but not to have the darkest shade of skin possible for a human to have - and want to have curves - to a point, as long as they can still be thin and fit size 2, and have full lips - to a point, but still be clearly white. There aren't a whole heap of white women who actually want to look and be Black.

If you want to send the message that Black women are beautiful and their beauty inspires others, you have to use a Black woman. Otherwise you're saying a white woman can send this message more effectively.
Get used to me. Black, confident, cocky; my name, not yours; my religion, not yours; my goals, my own; get used to me. -Muhammad Ali












As clever as that might have been, you just don't touch some things w/ a ten foot pole...unless you want to ruffle some feathers. Which the magazine did.
Originally Posted by spiderlashes5000
Agreed.

Anna - it's just a thought with very debatable legs. But again, using a Black African woman wouldn't work if that thought was actually in play.

What spiderlashes said about offense being present in the racist art form of it didn't cross my mind. If that's what people who're familiar with racist art like that are clearly seeing/it's unmistakable, then it's safe to say the thought doesn't apply.

The only way I assumed people were reacting to it was "so even when they want to honor Black African beauty they use a white woman, out of perception that her beauty is superior."

Which made me wonder if the shoot's team could have conceived of it like "here's a white woman who wants to capture Black African beauty." Western-idolizing behavior turned around. She's altering herself to fit the mold she's aspiring to. You couldn't send that message with a Black African model.
Originally Posted by sew and sew
It might be similar to having the most lovely swastika in the world, embroidered with the finest silk thread onto the most glorious fabric...to showcase the beauty of the materials being used. But it's still a swatika. Materials and intention and craftship be damned. You just don't go there.
Originally Posted by spiderlashes5000
LOL, the swastika actually was an ancient eastern symbol before the Nazis co-opted it, so you DO actually see beautiful embroidered swastikas in art and stuff from those cultures that use it with a different meaning. I remember being taken aback as a kid going into an Asian store and seeing the place just loaded with swastikas. But I take your point.
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Get used to me. Black, confident, cocky; my name, not yours; my religion, not yours; my goals, my own; get used to me. -Muhammad Ali











For the record, the main reason this bothers me is not any of the ones discussed so far. It's the effort to try to impose a standard for Black beauty upon Black people. White people have those messed-up standards - we don't need them, and we don't need a Black beauty ideal.
Get used to me. Black, confident, cocky; my name, not yours; my religion, not yours; my goals, my own; get used to me. -Muhammad Ali











The other factor is that non-white models are still really underrepresented in the fashion world.

I will just quote this commenter from Jezebel becuae she said it really well.
fashionlady: Can I just say as a young black model (I'm a girl) having worked my ass for the past 3 years, this hurts my soul. I'm happy for Ondria as a person but the amount of times I have been told "oh sorry we already have a black girl that looks like you" or "most of our clients dont hire black girls, sorry" and then I see THIS, it pisses me off ! There are so many beauitful black models out there working TWICE as half for barely half the recognition and the only time they give a **** about us is when they need our dark skin for some "ethnic" photo shoot and in this case with Ondria, they couldn't even be bothered. Can I see a black girl do SCANDANAVIAN PRINCESS please? Hmmm?
I mean it's bad enough black models can't get non-racially-specific jobs, now they the white gir gets the African job too, WTF?
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I mean, how many times does the fashion industry do this? (the correct answer is : lots)
When will they learn?
There's an obesession with turning minorities into costumes because we aren't real people or we're all dead. That's all it is.
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Last edited by moodydove; 02-28-2013 at 09:21 AM.
Anna, it's racist to think all Africans are black, k?
Originally Posted by Saria
You should really think about rephrasing that statement. It is NOT racist to think that all Africans are black, because they are, BUT there are white people living in Africa ever since it was colonialized by the Europeans. They are residents of Africa. And don't even get me started on the transatlantic slave.

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For the record, the main reason this bothers me is not any of the ones discussed so far. It's the effort to try to impose a standard for Black beauty upon Black people. White people have those messed-up standards - we don't need them, and we don't need a Black beauty ideal.
Originally Posted by Amneris
Is it Clairol hair colour that has the slogan "You, only better!"? That's what I think of here.
CurlyCanadian and murrrcat like this.


THE COMMENTS ARE DEATH TO ME.

When will there be:
A White Congressional Caucus?
A Miss White America beauty pageant?
White Entertainment Television Network?
A United Caucasian College Fund?



eta: more beautimus comments

No one seems to mind when Beyonce straightens her hair and highlights it blonde and uses a pale foundation on her face.

NOT ALL AFRICANS ARE BLACK!!!!! Just shows you how ignorant a "certain ethnic" group is...


i'm tired of this racial calling BS, this is America if you dont like it go back to Africa or where ever you come from and see how they treat you there, i'm white and i don't get any special treatment because of my skin color so dont feel left out of the equation. I dont hear any other country going out of their way to help people either. face the facts this is not a fair world or eveyone would have it made.

BS, Blacks need to get a life. Africa includes black and white. The north is white the south is black, get over it. Cleopatra, one of the first "African" Queens was Greek.

So who cares what color she is? Aren't we supposed to be past this "skin color " thing? Does anyone complain about black Santa Clauses?

Give it a rest for crying out loud...GROW UP people!




White people still butt hurt slavery ended. The end.
Originally Posted by murrrcat
+1

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Anna, it's racist to think all Africans are black, k?
Originally Posted by Saria
You should really think about rephrasing that statement. It is NOT racist to think that all Africans are black, because they are, BUT there are white people living in Africa ever since it was colonialized by the Europeans. They are residents of Africa. And don't even get me started on the transatlantic slave.

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Originally Posted by LoveInBetween
Saria can correct me if I'm wrong but she was being sarcastic because of what some of the people in the comments section of the article were saying.
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Very sensitive topic to be sarcastic on.

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