death penalty

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Inmates at least in CA get way too many privileges. In fact they get a lot more than a lot of working citizens who have no violent criminal history. It's disgusting!
Originally Posted by crimsonshedemon
What privileges do inmates get? I'm very interested in hearing more about this.
Depending on his race, he may get killed in prison. But not always. I have absolutely no sympathy for garbage like this.
Originally Posted by crimsonshedemon
So racist violence is perfectly fine sometimes. Would you say that's a fair restatement?

Last edited by Eilonwy; 03-17-2013 at 03:28 AM.
Inmates at least in CA get way too many privileges. In fact they get a lot more than a lot of working citizens who have no violent criminal history. It's disgusting!
Originally Posted by crimsonshedemon
What privileges do inmates get? I'm very interested in hearing more about this.
Originally Posted by Eilonwy
Inmates are fed, clothed, housed, get health care, medication, books, recreation, dental care, conjugal visits, education (college degrees are not unheard of)....it's easy to say those things aren't 'priviledges' but murder victims aren't getting those things are they?
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I've been asked the question in the OP before, and it's very patronizing. Could I really be unaware that there's such thing as rapists and murderers? Would I really form my opinion without considering the terrible things people do?

Speaking of which, the death penalty is one of the terrible things people do. All execution does is fulfill our own hunger for violence. It's well established that it's completely ineffective for any other purpose. And I do not accept retribution as a reason to kill someone.
Originally Posted by Eilonwy
Suppose evidence is there and this particular guy confesses. As a member of society, what do you think should happen to him?
My problem with capital punishment is there are so many gray areas. I fear for those people who are innocent but found guilty mistakenly. Once we take their life we cannot give it back. Sure if a case was black and white, no question that the accused was guilty, there are many instances I could support capital punishment. The system just doesn't work that way.

As sick as what I think this man did, I would rather he be in prison for life than someone innocent, possibly dear to me, found guilty and put to death.
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I struggle with this but I am opposed to the death penalty because mistakes can be made or people can be framed and given the experiences of some people who are close to me, I don't trust the "justice" system to be honest all the time. I also think execution feeds the barbaric, violent undercurrent in our society.

Slightly OT but as far as inmates having privileges, if we didn't lock everybody up for every little thing (I'm talking about nonviolent crime, much of which can be addressed through house arrest/ community based rehabilitation which could require individuals to support themselves), we wouldn't have to offer as many privileges. But when you can spend 2 years in prison for leaving your keys in the ignition and having some drinks at a friend's house while an unfriendly neighbor calls the police and says you might be driving, you damn well better offer some programming. Prison ruins people. It's a nasty system designed to keep people coming back.
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Until he dies - whether a needle or natural causes -, the victims' family will be paying for his housing, health care, education if he wants, food, legal fees and whatever else he wants through their taxes.
Originally Posted by Myradella3
And if he's executed, I'll be paying for the premeditated killing of a human being.

I've been asked the question in the OP before, and it's very patronizing. Could I really be unaware that there's such thing as rapists and murderers? Would I really form my opinion without considering the terrible things people do?

Speaking of which, the death penalty is one of the terrible things people do. All execution does is fulfill our own hunger for violence. It's well established that it's completely ineffective for any other purpose. And I do not accept retribution as a reason to kill someone.
Originally Posted by Eilonwy
I agree with all this, but...

I'm okay with the bolded as a reason for execution. I know it's not a deterrent, but there's that very base part of me that believes that some people really just need to be killed. Serial killers, child rapists...they will never not be a danger to society.

That said, for purely practical purposes, I think it would be best for capital punishment to be abolished. The risks of execution an innocent person is just too high. The cost of keeping a person on death row for years is too much, and since we're dealing with someone's life, it should take a long time and many appeals before they're killed.
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Eres o te haces?
Inmates are fed, clothed, housed, get health care, medication, books, recreation, dental care, conjugal visits, education (college degrees are not unheard of)....it's easy to say those things aren't 'priviledges' but murder victims aren't getting those things are they?
...
Suppose evidence is there and this particular guy confesses. As a member of society, what do you think should happen to him?
Originally Posted by Myradella3
I think he should be fed, clothed, housed, and given healthcare, medication, books, recreation, dental care, conjugal visits, and education. I don't even know what to say to the idea that prisoners, inmates in actual US prisons, are privileged compared to average hard-working citizens. (I know someone else wrote that second part, but it sounds like you agree with it. Please let me know if I'm wrong.)

Let's say this guy is sentenced to life in prison. As a member of society, do you want to starve him, leave him naked and without shelter, let his mind and body decay from inactivity, and sit back and watch as illness claims him? This isn't a rhetorical question meant to make you see the "error of your ways," and I'm not asking you what he deserves. If the murderer-rapist in the article gets life in prison, what should we, as a society, do with him? If he were in your personal custody and unable to harm you, what would you, yourself, do with him?
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I know it's not a deterrent, but there's that very base part of me that believes that some people really just need to be killed. Serial killers, child rapists...they will never not be a danger to society.
Originally Posted by legends
See, I think imprisoning someone for life means they're no longer a danger to the public. People escape from prison, but that's pretty unusual. I think the purpose of prison is to protect the public and rehabilitate inmates. This guy isn't going to be rehabilitated, but we still need to restrict our actions to the minimum needed to ensure our safety. If we go further than that, what kind of people are we?

What this man truly deserves, what would happen to him in a fair and just universe with no afterlife, is a difficult question. But what we ourselves should do is, for me, an easy one. I know what kind of person I want to be. I know what kind of society I want to live in. And while part of me wants him to be killed, my desire to rise above that is stronger.
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I say we take all the prisoners on death row, line them up and shoot them all.

Use the money that was used to support them and give it to our schools.

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I agree with all of the above, what I believe in when it comes to situations such as that, is something a bit more harsh....solitary confinement...for life....in a white room...everything white...with a bright light. Humans are social creatures, being isolated without any human contact is probably the most non-violent form of punishment you can inflict on someone...bordering on torture. Leave them to the prison of their mind and their thoughts. They will eventually lose their mind. and die mentally or take themselves out. This is especially the case of violent/repeat sex offenders....like that MONSTER who was taping himself raping a 6 month old. People want them to have access to health, food, shelter, clothes etc? Fine. They can have all of that....alone. Forever. Time will stand still for them. Just leaving violent child rapists in prison where they can still make some form of a life in general pop. isn't good enough. Now I know sex offenders generally are treated horribly in prison, but they get less time than murderers and drug dealers do, and that's disgraceful. Im not trivializing murder at all, but child sex offenders seem to be one of those crimes that have a high rate of repeats. Those people should get the ultimate punishment.

People can sit on death row for years, they have time to "ask for forgiveness", come to terms with their crime, become mentally prepared, and in some case become eager to go ahead and die. They have, to some degree, time on their side a luxury their victims didn't have. Even in prison, yes it is Im sure a living hell (mostly due to the nature of the people who are there as well as the lack of control over ones' life and restrictions etc)...however they still are around people and are living. They can look forward to activities, or preoccupy themselves reading....even in a short moment in time, things aren't so bad with things like that to distract you. I don't trust the justice system either, but for cases where it is CLEAR that someone committed a horrific crime...Im pro-sc all day.
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Last edited by Lovemenappy; 03-17-2013 at 04:49 PM.
Inmates are fed, clothed, housed, get health care, medication, books, recreation, dental care, conjugal visits, education (college degrees are not unheard of)....it's easy to say those things aren't 'priviledges' but murder victims aren't getting those things are they?
...
Suppose evidence is there and this particular guy confesses. As a member of society, what do you think should happen to him?
Originally Posted by Myradella3
I think he should be fed, clothed, housed, and given healthcare, medication, books, recreation, dental care, conjugal visits, and education. I don't even know what to say to the idea that prisoners, inmates in actual US prisons, are privileged compared to average hard-working citizens. (I know someone else wrote that second part, but it sounds like you agree with it. Please let me know if I'm wrong.)

Let's say this guy is sentenced to life in prison. As a member of society, do you want to starve him, leave him naked and without shelter, let his mind and body decay from inactivity, and sit back and watch as illness claims him? This isn't a rhetorical question meant to make you see the "error of your ways," and I'm not asking you what he deserves. If the murderer-rapist in the article gets life in prison, what should we, as a society, do with him? If he were in your personal custody and unable to harm you, what would you, yourself, do with him?
Originally Posted by Eilonwy
I don't think anyone said prisoners were privledged compared to average hard working citizens. But they are privileged compared to a lot of folks to who don't have access to health care. They are priviledged compared to homeless who would love 3 hots and cot. And they are priviledged compared to a guy who has to bury his wife and deal with a daughter so violently violated.

What do I want to do with that particular guy? I want him to get the death penalty if he's guilty. If there's no DP then yes starve him; Yes let him go naked. Yes let his mind decay (it's pretty far gone anyway). I think I answered your questions so please answer this:

Are you saying that this guy should have no punishment for what he did - if he's guilty?
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I say we take all the prisoners on death row, line them up and shoot them all.

Use the money that was used to support them and give it to our schools.
Originally Posted by LoveInBetween
Alternatively, how about we end the failed war on drugs (that disproportionately targets young black men, often for mere possession) and use that $20 billion a year for education? Then we can provide people with a future and PREVENT them from turning to a life of crime.
(BTW, here in Florida, the death penalty costs $51 million per year more than life without parole.)

Providing non-violent inmates with an education while in prison may seem like a reward for bad behavior. But in fact, this policy is good for law-abiding citizens, since prisoners who attend these programs are much less likely to commit crimes after their release. A study by Florida's Department of Corrections found that these programs generate $3.53 for every $1 spent on them. So the public saves money by giving model prisoners opportunities to become useful, productive members of society.

I understand the desire for revenge, and I am repulsed by this crime. But not all cases are so clear-cut, and people are wrongly convicted. Moreover, there are documented racial disparities in conviction and sentencing: juries are much more likely to find a black person guilty and sentence him to death than a white person, especially when the victim is white.

I'm also quite disturbed that the United States is the only advanced democracy that still maintains the death penalty. As an American, I am embarrassed to keep company with the likes of China, Iran, North Korea and Saudi Arabia.

If it makes you feel better, murder committed during a carjacking is a capital crime under federal law. So even though NY no longer has the death penalty, he may still be executed, depending on who claims jurisdiction.
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I would like to add that there are people sitting on death row who either confessed or were found guilty, but it was proven later that they were innocent of the crime. The Dixmoor 5 and The Central Park Rape cases comes to mind. Thank goodness for the Innocence Project and programs like it.
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I would like to add that there are people sitting on death row who either confessed or were found guilty, but it was proven later that they were innocent of the crime. The Dixmoor 5 and The Central Park Rape cases comes to mind. Thank goodness for the Innocence Project and programs like it.
Originally Posted by juanab
Excellent point! I remember the Central Park jogger case very clearly, since the media seized on the tragedy as proof of a dangerous new form of crime called "wolfing": packs of young men prowling for victims to attack. People were in a constant state of terror for months as the media bombarded us with sensational tales on a daily basis.

And don't forget the West Memphis 3, whose convictions (including one sentenced to death) were based on coerced confessions.


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I would like to add that there are people sitting on death row who either confessed or were found guilty, but it was proven later that they were innocent of the crime. The Dixmoor 5 and The Central Park Rape cases comes to mind. Thank goodness for the Innocence Project and programs like it.
Originally Posted by juanab
Excellent point! I remember the Central Park jogger case very clearly, since the media seized on the tragedy as proof of a dangerous new form of crime called "wolfing": packs of young men prowling for victims to attack. People were in a constant state of terror for months as the media bombarded us with sensational tales on a daily basis.

And don't forget the West Memphis 3, whose convictions (including one sentenced to death) were based on coerced confessions.


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Originally Posted by yossarian
West Memphis 3, I remember as well.

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If someone confesses to a particularly heinous crime and there is compelling evidence (eye witnesses & DNA together for example) I don't think the person should have contact with any other humans (I don't care if the mind decays). Frankly, I wouldn't care if he (or she) was waterboarded every day of his life. I don't care if I seem bloodthirsty or vengeful when it comes to certain types of criminals; for everyone else I am softhearted to a fault.

I was molested when I was 8 and had a rape attempt when I was 20. I would be delighted if both men died a slow death screaming in pain.

ETA: Reiterating what I said in earlier post, I don't support DP because innocent people get killed. Unless there is some way to never make a mistake, I am against it.
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Last edited by curlypearl; 03-17-2013 at 09:07 PM.
If someone confesses to a particularly heinous crime and there is compelling evidence (eye witnesses & DNA together for example) I don't think the person should have contact with any other humans (I don't care if the mind decays). Frankly, I wouldn't care if he (or she) was waterboarded every day of his life. I don't care if I seem bloodthirsty or vengeful when it comes to certain types of criminals; for everyone else I am softhearted to a fault.

I was molested when I was 8 and had a rape attempt when I was 20. I would be delighted if both men died a slow death screaming in pain.
Originally Posted by curlypearl
Given the prevalence of prison rape in US prisons (another "privilege" granted to inmates), you'll probably get your wish if they are behind bars.

I deeply regret your personal suffering, and I hope that justice was served. But I have faith in the human potential for rehabilitation, and I believe in forgiveness as an act of healing.

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I think you are a fine person Yossarian. I really mean that. I admire people who feel as you do and I'm glad that there are people who feel that way. You have a good heart and compassion.

I'm honestly not some heartless type person; in fact people who know me say my biggest fault is that I am too soft-hearted, but I will never forgive either of these men. When I was 8 I thought I had done something terribly wrong and was too terrified for years to tell anyone. After the rape attempt at 20, I saw a psychiatrist who called the perpetrator and threatened to commit him.

ETA: neither is in prison, and the one who almost raped me is involved with children. My blood runs cold.
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Last edited by curlypearl; 03-17-2013 at 09:26 PM.
I think you are a fine person Yossarian. I really mean that. I admire people who feel as you do and I'm glad that there are people who feel that way. You have a good heart and compassion.

I'm honestly not some heartless type person; in fact people who know me say my biggest fault is that I am too soft-hearted, but I will never forgive either of these men. When I was 8 I thought I had done something terribly wrong and was too terrified for years to tell anyone. After the rape attempt at 20, I saw a psychiatrist who called the perpetrator and threatened to commit him.

ETA: neither is in prison, and the one who almost raped me is involved with children. My blood runs cold.
Originally Posted by curlypearl
Thank you, cp. And I certainly understand your anger and frustration - no person, especially a child, should EVER have to endure what you have. The fact that these men have acted with impunity is especially infuriating. We have a responsibility to protect the most innocent, yet all too often turn a blind eye. It is truly frightening to think that this predator has easy access to children.

I am trusting to a fault as well. I force myself to watch real-life crime shows to remind myself that evil is real, and cannot always be cured with kindness

To look at this differently, wouldn't life without the possibility of parole be more tortuous than execution?


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I think you are a fine person Yossarian. I really mean that. I admire people who feel as you do and I'm glad that there are people who feel that way. You have a good heart and compassion.

I'm honestly not some cold-blooded type person; in fact people who know me say my biggest fault is that I am too soft-hearted, but I will never forgive either of these men.
Originally Posted by curlypearl
CP, I can understand how you feel as I was molested at 6 by a family member, raped at 12 by a family friend (with help from his male and female cousins), and an attempted rape at knifepoint at 13. I finally had to forgive them for my sake. Otherwise I would not have been able to move forward with my life. I spent a lot of time blaming and punishing myself. It did take me several years, therapy and developing a relationship with God to do so, however.

I do think they should be punished for their actions.

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