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Old 03-18-2013, 09:01 AM   #61
 
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Excellent point! I remember the Central Park jogger case very clearly, since the media seized on the tragedy as proof of a dangerous new form of crime called "wolfing": packs of young men prowling for victims to attack. People were in a constant state of terror for months as the media bombarded us with sensational tales on a daily basis.
I recall it as "wilding" not wolfing...?
Yes, you are correct. I got my animal metaphors mixed up

Thanks!
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Old 03-18-2013, 09:24 AM   #62
 
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+1. Child rapists don't do very well behind bars, since many inmates have children of their own.

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And I don't think we should encourage other prisoners hurting them, either. They usually get segregated so others can't attack them and that deprives them of human interaction which is cruel.

I agree that he should get a life sentence and maybe the opportunity to make reparations as much as is possible.
I believe it is actually more humane to segregate them because whether we like it or not, there is a code in prison against pedophiles and they will be attacked.
Well yes, it is definitely the lesser of two evils.

I have a client who is accused of sexual assault against a child and he's suicidal at the moment because of all the isolation.
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Old 03-18-2013, 09:29 AM   #63
 
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Got it.....so if this guy is guilty, then we put him away in comfortable (convenient?) surroundings so that he doesn't feel less human because he raped a 10 year old and killed her mother? We essentially say to him, "you did a bad thing so you have to stay here until we feel that you won't do that bad thing again. Let us know what we can do to keep you feeling as human as possible. If it's too cold or too hot or if your food isn't prepared to your satisfaction, let us know because we want to show that we're humane".
We do it so that WE don't feel less humane - that we show that even in the face of the most awful things humans can do to one another, we are still good people who believe in compassion and forgiveness.

Incarceration really isn't comfortable or convenient. You have very little freedom of movement, choice over your schedule, you're locked away from your loved ones and the full life in society, you're subject to brutality from guards and other inmates, very little privacy or space, invasive body searches.... I feel like some people here really haven't spent any time in jails or prisons or with the people who are or have been housed there. Trust me... you wouldn't want to spend a week there, let alone your whole life.
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Old 03-18-2013, 09:47 AM   #64
 
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Got it.....so if this guy is guilty, then we put him away in comfortable (convenient?) surroundings so that he doesn't feel less human because he raped a 10 year old and killed her mother? We essentially say to him, "you did a bad thing so you have to stay here until we feel that you won't do that bad thing again. Let us know what we can do to keep you feeling as human as possible. If it's too cold or too hot or if your food isn't prepared to your satisfaction, let us know because we want to show that we're humane".
We do it so that WE don't feel less humane - that we show that even in the face of the most awful things humans can do to one another, we are still good people who believe in compassion and forgiveness.

Incarceration really isn't comfortable or convenient. You have very little freedom of movement, choice over your schedule, you're locked away from your loved ones and the full life in society, you're subject to brutality from guards and other inmates, very little privacy or space, invasive body searches.... I feel like some people here really haven't spent any time in jails or prisons or with the people who are or have been housed there. Trust me... you wouldn't want to spend a week there, let alone your whole life.
I've done volunteer work at a youth prison, a camp like facility for those transitioning from max to min to camp to freedom and I've worked at a forensic facility for those judged to be criminally insane. I didn't work there long but I had two patients there who I had to evaluate.

And if they don't want to spend a week or life there, kill them and that takes care of it.
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Old 03-18-2013, 10:18 AM   #65
 
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Got it.....so if this guy is guilty, then we put him away in comfortable (convenient?) surroundings so that he doesn't feel less human because he raped a 10 year old and killed her mother? We essentially say to him, "you did a bad thing so you have to stay here until we feel that you won't do that bad thing again. Let us know what we can do to keep you feeling as human as possible. If it's too cold or too hot or if your food isn't prepared to your satisfaction, let us know because we want to show that we're humane".
I can certainly appreciate the thought that prisons must be comfortable, given that they do get fed and healthcare etc. But I highly recommend you volunteer some of your time to a prison at some point. I think you'll pretty quickly change your mind.
Previous posters said that we must show this guy humane treatment. What is humane? He should be given food, shelter, healthcare, education, recreation, and whatever else he needs - except the ability to leave those four walls - to ensure that we don't act as savages.

I guess I don't believe it's the role of a judge or a corrections officer or prison administrator to figure up and mete out punishments that exactly fit the crimes of the inmates.

You molested a child? Well, on this crime-punishment articulation table that equates to two ass kickings and an anal rape per week. And you can eat dead cockroaches and drink your own urine.

You robbed a bank? Well, that doesn't offend my sensibilities as much so I will spare you the anal rapes. You can eat balogna sandwiches.

You killed someone and I believe you planned to do so beforehand? I will channel 3000 volts of electricity directly into your brain until your hair catches fire and your eye pop out.

Who are we to impose these sentences?!

Personally, I think venegeance is the Lord's and our responsibility ends with keeping violent criminals away from everyone else if they are irredeemable. But that's JMO.

But I do agree, that it is easier for convicted violent felons to get healthcare and an education and housing than many peaceful, law-abiding citizens. And that isn't fair.
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Old 03-18-2013, 10:53 AM   #66
 
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Got it.....so if this guy is guilty, then we put him away in comfortable (convenient?) surroundings so that he doesn't feel less human because he raped a 10 year old and killed her mother? We essentially say to him, "you did a bad thing so you have to stay here until we feel that you won't do that bad thing again. Let us know what we can do to keep you feeling as human as possible. If it's too cold or too hot or if your food isn't prepared to your satisfaction, let us know because we want to show that we're humane".
I can certainly appreciate the thought that prisons must be comfortable, given that they do get fed and healthcare etc. But I highly recommend you volunteer some of your time to a prison at some point. I think you'll pretty quickly change your mind.
Truth. I've been to a prison once, for a tour...it was horrific. Not even overtly all the time, just the atmosphere would be too much for me.
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Old 03-18-2013, 11:11 AM   #67
 
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I am against the death penalty because I am not comfortable with the idea of an innocent person being put to death. It's horrifying enough if they are wrongly jailed, but so much worse if they are put to death. There's no undoing that mistake.

I also don't like the idea of the justice system meting out death as a punishment. At the same time, I know that if a family member were a victim of a horrible crime, I would want the perpetrator dead. However, I don't think a civilized society should kill criminals.
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Old 03-18-2013, 11:16 AM   #68
 
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I am against the death penalty because I am not comfortable with the idea of an innocent person being put to death. It's horrifying enough if they are wrongly jailed, but so much worse if they are put to death. There's no undoing that mistake.

I also don't like the idea of the justice system meting out death as a punishment. At the same time, I know that if a family member were a victim of a horrible crime, I would want the perpetrator dead. However, I don't think a civilized society should kill criminals.
Agreed. Innocent people have been executed. I do not think it makes sense to kill someone, because they killed someone, to show that killing someone is wrong.

Yes some heinous criminals do not deserve to live. However, it is not my place as a mortal human being to decide they will die. I believe that judgement day cometh & the Lord is the only true judge. I believe executioners will go to hell, and are no better or different than the murderers they are executing. Like they say, an eye for an eye makes the whole world blind.

This is only my opinion & thru my life it has not been a popular one. But it's how I feel.
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Old 03-18-2013, 01:23 PM   #69
 
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What privileges do inmates get? I'm very interested in hearing more about this.
Inmates are fed, clothed, housed, get health care, medication, books, recreation, dental care, conjugal visits, education (college degrees are not unheard of)....it's easy to say those things aren't 'priviledges' but murder victims aren't getting those things are they?
If they don't get those things, then prison employees are at risk of riots and violence because of inmate dissatisfaction - and if this led to them escaping, it could endanger the public.

Plus, again, it shows humanity to treat them as human beings, and may help to rehabilitate some. If there were more programming in institutions perhaps more people would turn their lives around.
Then there is this:

I don’t want to live in a nation where abuse of prisoners is sanctioned outright. The moral decay that would naturally follow throughout such a society would make my own life a living hell.

It’s bad enough we have the unsanctioned abuse we do have, and the immoral and inhumane treatment of the POWs we take in — that are conveniently housed in other countries so we don’t have to be as careful with them. It all disgusts me.

Anyone who thinks we should take it a step further is operating under the influence of bloodlust. I don’t believe in bloodlust. I want justice — or the closest approximation we humans can manage.
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Old 03-18-2013, 03:05 PM   #70
 
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Got it.....so if this guy is guilty, then we put him away in comfortable (convenient?) surroundings so that he doesn't feel less human because he raped a 10 year old and killed her mother? We essentially say to him, "you did a bad thing so you have to stay here until we feel that you won't do that bad thing again. Let us know what we can do to keep you feeling as human as possible. If it's too cold or too hot or if your food isn't prepared to your satisfaction, let us know because we want to show that we're humane".
And here's yet another ridiculous strawman. If I don't want to execute him, then I must want to set him free. If I don't want to starve him to death, then I must want his meals prepared by Michelin starred chefs.

Oh, and by the way -- we treat him humanely not only for the sake of his humanity, but so we don't become less than human. I've already written two posts about this, here's a third. Let's hope there's no need for a fourth.
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Old 03-18-2013, 03:13 PM   #71
 
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Child Rapist don't rehabilitate. It's a fact. Put them in prison and leave them there. I don't care if the get educations and watch cable all day Just please stop letting them out of prison.
I think that child molesters are sick. And I think our care/protection of children is more important than their right to freedom. I hope someday psychology advances to a point where they could rehabilitate, but I don't believe in it now. Part of my problem with set sentences is that it means you're releasing someone who may still be a danger. I believe in rehabilitation any time it's possible, and think you should never release someone who is still a threat to those around him/her even if it's due to mental illness, especially for threats to children.
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Old 03-18-2013, 04:04 PM   #72
 
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I still stand by solitary confinement. I think that's more of an incentive for someone to not commit a heinous crime than the death penalty anyway. Some people don't fear death, and therefore the "punishment" of "death" is not good enough to hinder further crimes. Some people do not "fear" prison, so staying there for life is not a threat to them. Guaranteed meals, healthcare, a place to sleep, and an opportunity to get education are luxuries prisoners have that a lot of law abiding people don't. To some people, the streets are a worse sentence than prison. And for people who have experienced that first hand, they will just do what ever heinous thing (rape, violence, gang related activities) they did on the street....in prison....and they DO.

I think a prisoner would choose life, death penalty, and solitary confinement in that order. I don't believe in the death penalty, but life in prison with no parole, for some crimes, is not good enough.

I honestly have a problem with the justice system on a myriad of issues. If someone commits a heinous crime due to mental illness, I believe they should receive medical attention....but still serve the same sentence in a mental hospital that they would in a prison. Just because they are taking anti-psychotic medicine doesn't erase the fact that they raped or slaughtered people.

It's just unfair. It's unfair for a rapist to violently rape a child and serve a handful of years in prison. I don't care if Bubba is looking to attack him for his actions. Im not banking or wanting a gang of men to physically or sexually assault a child rapist. The child rapist is more inclined to get out of prison than the murderer that attacked him. So if the child rapist goes back out and rapes another child, now we dont just have to worry about him raping a child we also have to worry about the diseases he could spread to that child that he contracted in prison. No. I'm sorry. One can look at putting a pedophile in a prison environment where he is almost assured to be raped an abused as... "torture"....but people turn a blind eye to violence and rape in prison all of the time. Someone will get the shorter end of the stick when it comes to issues like this anyway. I just don't think it's justice for someone to be killed/raped and people are more concerned about "preserving humanity" and figuring out ways to make sure a pedophile has basic necessities than what is best for the public. It's not about vengeance, it's about permanently separating those people from the public so they can't cause anymore harm.
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Old 03-18-2013, 04:12 PM   #73
 
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I really liked spiderlashes post about doling out punishments. It really wasn't that long ago when people were getting flayed, drawn, and quartered. Do we really want to go back to that?

The truly most humane death penalty in my mind would be instant death for someone who without a shadow of a doubt did whatever heinousness they're accused of. All these super "creative" ways of execution make me sick. As sick as the idea of rape. I also agree you have to consider your own humanity. I am not willing to taint myself so someone else can suffer. I would want that job to be assigned to someone else. And what about their humanity?

I'm against the death penalty because innocent people die and the system is not fair or just in its current condition. But I have to say I'm coming to the side of being against it because it's unethical. Hard for me to swallow because I do understand why someone, even me, would want to do the whole eye for an eye thing.
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Old 03-18-2013, 04:16 PM   #74
 
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I feel for the truly evil or wicked things, the person who did them already doesn't care anyway whether it be because of their mental illness or not. So inflicting punishment serves no purpose because they don't care to begin with. They also probably don't care if they die.


I don't know. I just don't know.
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Old 03-18-2013, 04:57 PM   #75
 
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I still stand by solitary confinement. I think that's more of an incentive for someone to not commit a heinous crime than the death penalty anyway.
It's not an incentive and neither is the death penalty. They're major punishments, but they're too far removed for people to consider in deciding to commit a crime.
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If someone commits a heinous crime due to mental illness, I believe they should receive medical attention....but still serve the same sentence in a mental hospital that they would in a prison. Just because they are taking anti-psychotic medicine doesn't erase the fact that they raped or slaughtered people.
But is it really fair to punish someone for actions that were essentially involuntary due to psychosis? Is it fair to punish good people for suffering from illness? And the people who respond well to medication -- imagine the moment when they realize what they've done!

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One can look at putting a pedophile in a prison environment where he is almost assured to be raped an abused as... "torture"....but people turn a blind eye to violence and rape in prison all of the time.
If it's fair to let some people be raped, that means rape can be fair and have a legitimate purpose. Do we really want to say rape is sometimes justified? Is that where we want to go?

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I just don't think it's justice for someone to be killed/raped and people are more concerned about "preserving humanity" and figuring out ways to make sure a pedophile has basic necessities than what is best for the public. It's not about vengeance, it's about permanently separating those people from the public so they can't cause anymore harm.
Huh??? How in the world does giving prisoners food conflict with protecting the public?! Life imprisonment is sufficient to separate dangerous prisoners from the public so they can't cause more harm, and life imprisonment necessarily involves not starving prisoners to death.
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Old 03-18-2013, 05:11 PM   #76
 
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I can certainly appreciate the thought that prisons must be comfortable, given that they do get fed and healthcare etc. But I highly recommend you volunteer some of your time to a prison at some point. I think you'll pretty quickly change your mind.
Previous posters said that we must show this guy humane treatment. What is humane? He should be given food, shelter, healthcare, education, recreation, and whatever else he needs - except the ability to leave those four walls - to ensure that we don't act as savages.

I guess I don't believe it's the role of a judge or a corrections officer or prison administrator to figure up and mete out punishments that exactly fit the crimes of the inmates.

You molested a child? Well, on this crime-punishment articulation table that equates to two ass kickings and an anal rape per week. And you can eat dead cockroaches and drink your own urine.

You robbed a bank? Well, that doesn't offend my sensibilities as much so I will spare you the anal rapes. You can eat balogna sandwiches.

You killed someone and I believe you planned to do so beforehand? I will channel 3000 volts of electricity directly into your brain until your hair catches fire and your eye pop out.

Who are we to impose these sentences?!

Personally, I think venegeance is the Lord's and our responsibility ends with keeping violent criminals away from everyone else if they are irredeemable. But that's JMO.

But I do agree, that it is easier for convicted violent felons to get healthcare and an education and housing than many peaceful, law-abiding citizens. And that isn't fair.

All of this. And I stand by what I said before- if we want to offer fewer perks in prison (by perks, I don't mean food), we would have to start limiting the types of crimes we incarcerate people for. There are many instances where community based rehabilitation is more appropriate (obviously, the case in the op is not one of those cases).
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Old 03-19-2013, 08:51 AM   #77
 
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Inmates at least in CA get way too many privileges. In fact they get a lot more than a lot of working citizens who have no violent criminal history. It's disgusting!
What privileges do inmates get? I'm very interested in hearing more about this.
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Depending on his race, he may get killed in prison. But not always. I have absolutely no sympathy for garbage like this.
So racist violence is perfectly fine sometimes. Would you say that's a fair restatement?
Inmates and privileges- i'm talking about level 4 inmates. People who have done horrible, despicable acts that you can't even imagine. The newspaper does not print these details or pictures. It's impossible to understand how a human being can act like this to another human being.
I'm not talking about taking care of their general health but the abuse of the system. Inmates use the medical system to take field trips, get needles, meds, to communicate with other inmates, etc. Just medically, they get unlimited priority drs appointments with specialists, redundant testing, meds (so they can sell them later), specialists- all free of charge even tho they have money on their books. Even sex changes, organ transplants, etc. Then there's dental- crowns, dentures, bridges, etc. There are a lot of honest people who cant obtain these services but if you are a rapist, murder, pedophile, you are set. It's not right!
Then there's tv, movies, workout equipment (free weights were finally removed but there are still other equipment), yoga, recreational classes, arts and crafts, board games, musical instruments, music, and lots lots more. It's hardly hard time.
The level 4 prison here goes thru their annual medical budget in 2 months. That's how out of control it is.
In level 1- they literally have free range. Last time I was at the prison, there were 3 inmates sitting by the front door. I'm surprised more dont walk away.
Racist violence? That's not what I said. A fair restatement? No I wouldnt. Prison yards are self segregated by race. There isnt a lot of interaction because it's all about self preservation. Some races take care of their own business (running off pedophiles, assaulting them and occasionally if something happened, attempted murder or murder- not every attack is meant to kill) and wont tolerate pedophiles. Other races do not care because it's a numbers game. Pedophiles have the option of going to the sny yard (special needs) which is full of pedophiles, rapist, homosexuals, and even gang members that have debriefed (tho they hate being on this yard, they cant be in general population once they debrief) but for whatever reason, not all do right away.
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Old 03-19-2013, 09:00 AM   #78
 
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Inmates at least in CA get way too many privileges. In fact they get a lot more than a lot of working citizens who have no violent criminal history. It's disgusting!
What privileges do inmates get? I'm very interested in hearing more about this.
Inmates are fed, clothed, housed, get health care, medication, books, recreation, dental care, conjugal visits, education (college degrees are not unheard of)....it's easy to say those things aren't 'priviledges' but murder victims aren't getting those things are they?
They get all the same privileges. Even Level 4 inmates get conjugal visits unless they have a committed a violent crime.
Don't forget they get tax returns with earned income credit no less, social security and more
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Old 03-19-2013, 09:02 AM   #79
 
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Inmates are fed, clothed, housed, get health care, medication, books, recreation, dental care, conjugal visits, education (college degrees are not unheard of)....it's easy to say those things aren't 'priviledges' but murder victims aren't getting those things are they?
...
Suppose evidence is there and this particular guy confesses. As a member of society, what do you think should happen to him?
I think he should be fed, clothed, housed, and given healthcare, medication, books, recreation, dental care, conjugal visits, and education. I don't even know what to say to the idea that prisoners, inmates in actual US prisons, are privileged compared to average hard-working citizens. (I know someone else wrote that second part, but it sounds like you agree with it. Please let me know if I'm wrong.)

Let's say this guy is sentenced to life in prison. As a member of society, do you want to starve him, leave him naked and without shelter, let his mind and body decay from inactivity, and sit back and watch as illness claims him? This isn't a rhetorical question meant to make you see the "error of your ways," and I'm not asking you what he deserves. If the murderer-rapist in the article gets life in prison, what should we, as a society, do with him? If he were in your personal custody and unable to harm you, what would you, yourself, do with him?
It's not an all or nothing situation. It's about the perks, the excess, the privileges. Inmates in CA get movies before I can rent it on DVD. Is that not excess?
IMO, food, clothing and even education aren't excess.
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Old 03-19-2013, 09:11 AM   #80
 
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[QUOTE=Amneris;2139265.

Incarceration really isn't comfortable or convenient. You have very little freedom of movement, choice over your schedule, you're locked away from your loved ones and the full life in society, you're subject to brutality from guards and other inmates, very little privacy or space, invasive body searches.... I feel like some people here really haven't spent any time in jails or prisons or with the people who are or have been housed there. Trust me... you wouldn't want to spend a week there, let alone your whole life.[/QUOTE]

Because of the choices they made. They did not randomly get locked up. They are there on their own free will.
And no, I wouldn't want to spend a week there, that's why I choose not to be a felon. They still have more entitlements than many hard working citizens who've never committed a crime.
curlypearl and Antonia like this.
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