Gosnell Trial

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We cannot go on what religions say and what they 'think' about when life begins. We have to go on fact-based evidence, science and our laws need to be consistent. Every embryology text book you can find defines life as beginning at conception. It is just a fact. It is not a debate about when life begins, it is a debate about when it begins to matter. Pro-aborts think it only matters when the mother thinks it should matter and that is juts prima facie wrong.

It makes no sense that a woman, say, pushed down the stairs during pregnancy by her boyfriend resulting in the child dying can press charges, yet the same woman with the same child inside her could kill the kid herself completely legally. If you kill a pregnant woman, you are charged with double murder. Yet that same child could be killed by the mother herself and everything is honky dory. It is not consistent.

How can the value of one being (the child) be entirely dependent upon the phycological state of another being (the mother). My worth is not determined by my mother. The so-called 'need' for abortion is totally irrelevant to the debate. It is a red herring. If abortion is deemed morally unjustifiable, the supposed 'need' means nothing.

America has become cold and callus to sit here and defend barbarism at its worst. The slaughter of the weakest among us. Every society shall be judged by how it treats its weakest members. The ones with no voice. Many women on this thread are fierce defenders of this carnage... Sad, but true
Originally Posted by TheMisses

We do go by science. We recognize that the woman is already-born and her rights must always trump the rights of a fetus. To do otherwise takes the rights you seem to hold so dearly AWAY from the woman.

It makes perfect sense. If the woman CHOOSES to risk her own life to bring a pregnancy to term, then that fetus deserves to be respected as a being and anyone who kills it by killing the woman would be guilty of double murder. If the woman CHOOSES not to risk her life by carrying a pregancy to term that she doesn't want, then she can choose to abort. It's all about the government respecting the woman's right to control her own body.

Humans have always been cold and barbarus. Nothing is new. Nothing is worse now, and, in fact, the world is a good deal LESS barbaric and violent than it has ever been. Stop trying to revise history. And the weakest members of our society are often the already-borns...usually persons of color. The anti-choicers seem to want to defend the brown and black fetuses, but don't show up to help the brown and black already-borns.
How will every society be judged? By who?

The choice of abortion is not about the value of the child. The law was originally based off religious beliefs. The United States was founded by religious people...

There are a lot of contradictions and things that can or should be changed n the U.S. but I honestly think there are things we can be rallying for to improve the lives of men and women so they will make better decisions. If we as a whole try to improve the status of the women who are more likely to be "at risk" to choose abortion. Or help prevent the unwanted pregnancies. That's a better start than telling women who are already in rough situations that they are horrible people for not valuing the child.
How is a person who is struggling to take care of themself take care of a baby for the rest of its life. Or a woman in an abusive household raise a healthy child with a reasonable amount of security. Of course we can say well, they shouldn't have gotten pregnant but we gotta look at reality of the world. It may not be right or moral, but it is what it is.

You're not going to change anybody's mind by telling them they are cold hearted and cruel. You're not going to change pro choice advocates' minds by comparing their belief of choice to the holocaust and slavery. I'm just being real
How can I say goodbye P.L.G.
Originally Posted by B-Nessa11



The overwhelming majority of women who have abortions already have 1 or more children that they are struggling to take care of. They are MOTHERS who are trying to be responsible for the children they already have. The anti-choicers don't care about those mothers and babies. They only care about the fetuses.
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Why do they not refer to princess Kate's "fetus".
Well said Golden Curly.

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At the risk of sounding trollish, as I thoroughly believe that everyone on one side of the field thinks those on the other side are wrong.....

This thread reminds me of the great Monty Python and Every Sperm is Sacred.

For your viewing enjoyment:

Monty Python's Every Sperm is Sacred (The Meaning of Life) - YouTube

This was not meant to insult catholics or protestants or floating chinese dragons. I just always thought it was a funny song and was reminded of it by this thread.

Nor does this imply in any way my point of view on the issue. There are those that know it and it can stay that way. I do not feel adding my point of view will change any minds.
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How will every society be judged? By who?

The choice of abortion is not about the value of the child. The law was originally based off religious beliefs. The United States was founded by religious people...

There are a lot of contradictions and things that can or should be changed n the U.S. but I honestly think there are things we can be rallying for to improve the lives of men and women so they will make better decisions. If we as a whole try to improve the status of the women who are more likely to be "at risk" to choose abortion. Or help prevent the unwanted pregnancies. That's a better start than telling women who are already in rough situations that they are horrible people for not valuing the child.
How is a person who is struggling to take care of themself take care of a baby for the rest of its life. Or a woman in an abusive household raise a healthy child with a reasonable amount of security. Of course we can say well, they shouldn't have gotten pregnant but we gotta look at reality of the world. It may not be right or moral, but it is what it is.

You're not going to change anybody's mind by telling them they are cold hearted and cruel. You're not going to change pro choice advocates' minds by comparing their belief of choice to the holocaust and slavery. I'm just being real
How can I say goodbye P.L.G.
Originally Posted by B-Nessa11
Societies will be judged by future societies. Similarly to the way we judge societies of the past. I dont know exactly what 'law' you are referring to? I don't know if you know this, but there was never any federal law banning abortion. You seem to think there was. You can google the history of abortion in America for more info. Each state had its own laws on abortion, most states banned it except for rape and incest situations. It was never a federal issue until Roe v. Wade.

You dont need to be a lawyer to read our Constitution and see clearly in it that there is no constitutional 'right' to abortion. Our 14th Amendment cleary states "nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws." The only way to justify abortion is to somehow say unborn children arent people.

This is why I bring up the Holocaust and slavery analogy because that dehumanization and claims of 'non-personhood' is exactly what led to those atrocities. Whenever the law separates humanity from 'personhood' this is what occurs.

"In the eyes of the law... the slave is not a person" Virginia Supreme Court 1958

So you see, this is my point. If you will not concede it, that is fine, but I'm certain you can see the parallels between these injustices (slavery & Holocaust) and the injustice of abortion given the very clear explanation I have given. Treating human beings like property is not a new thing and it is always done in a similar way. If you want to rationalize it in your own mind, what else can I do?
I didn't mean abortion is a law. I mean the laws that our society originally started with were based from their religious beliefs and morals.

How can I say goodbye P.L.G.
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Why do they not refer to princess Kate's "fetus".
Originally Posted by poisonivy
When I fetus is wanted, apparently it magically becomes a baby.
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We do go by science. We recognize that the woman is already-born and her rights must always trump the rights of a fetus. To do otherwise takes the rights you seem to hold so dearly AWAY from the woman.

It makes perfect sense. If the woman CHOOSES to risk her own life to bring a pregnancy to term, then that fetus deserves to be respected as a being and anyone who kills it by killing the woman would be guilty of double murder. If the woman CHOOSES not to risk her life by carrying a pregancy to term that she doesn't want, then she can choose to abort. It's all about the government respecting the woman's right to control her own body.

Humans have always been cold and barbarus. Nothing is new. Nothing is worse now, and, in fact, the world is a good deal LESS barbaric and violent than it has ever been. Stop trying to revise history. And the weakest members of our society are often the already-borns...usually persons of color. The anti-choicers seem to want to defend the brown and black fetuses, but don't show up to help the brown and black already-borns.
Originally Posted by RedCatWaves
There is nothing scientific about claiming because a person is born their right to convenience trumps another's right to exist. Your rights end where another person's rights begin. Tell me, what are the moral implications of birth? By saying because someone is not born yet their rights are always under that of born person, you are stating that a child at 39.9 weeks could be killed if a woman decides she wants to go to a concert instead of having the baby. Is that really what you think? If so, that is a position I don't often hear..
Also, you kinda didn't respond to the rest of my post about improving the people already present n society and using that to try and eliminate the need people have for abortions. You have to start with the people who are here and can change things.
And even if I saw the parallel, it's not going to make anyone see the light about it when you are comparing their belief of women's right to choose if they have a child to slavery....if you believed it was truly say, ignorance on the part of pro choicers the better way to go about making a difference is not to make them feel like they are horrible people for wanting to stay out of people's business. Cuz that's how I see it.

Just like I stay out of the gay marriage advocates way, I can't say I totally agree or are comfortable with it, it's somethin totally out of my scope...and it ain't my business. I treat abortion the same way. I'm guna let the master answer on those issues.

How can I say goodbye P.L.G.
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BC- May 16, 2010
Why I chopped: heat damage/breakage
Luv'd my permed hair I just didnt take care of it.
LUVVV my natural hair!!!
How will every society be judged? By who?

The choice of abortion is not about the value of the child. The law was originally based off religious beliefs. The United States was founded by religious people...

There are a lot of contradictions and things that can or should be changed n the U.S. but I honestly think there are things we can be rallying for to improve the lives of men and women so they will make better decisions. If we as a whole try to improve the status of the women who are more likely to be "at risk" to choose abortion. Or help prevent the unwanted pregnancies. That's a better start than telling women who are already in rough situations that they are horrible people for not valuing the child.
How is a person who is struggling to take care of themself take care of a baby for the rest of its life. Or a woman in an abusive household raise a healthy child with a reasonable amount of security. Of course we can say well, they shouldn't have gotten pregnant but we gotta look at reality of the world. It may not be right or moral, but it is what it i
How can I say goodbye P.L.G.
Originally Posted by B-Nessa11



The overwhelming majority of women who have abortions already have 1 or more children that they are struggling to take care of. They are MOTHERS who are trying to be responsible for the children they already have. The anti-choicers don't care about those mothers and babies. They only care about the fetuses.
Originally Posted by RedCatWaves

Mmmmm hm. But what about when that fetus becomes a kid that needs to be taken care of
How can I say goodbye P.L.G.
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I didn't mean abortion is a law. I mean the laws that our society originally started with were based from their religious beliefs and morals.

How can I say goodbye P.L.G.
Originally Posted by B-Nessa11
Well, not entirely because there were a few secular influences in the writing of our Constitution. Either way, there was no federal abortion law so pointing out that our laws stem somewhat for religion seems to grasp at straws on the point we are discussing. Unless you are insisting that the right to life is too religious and ought not be in the Constitution. And I don't think you want to say that.
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Also, you kinda didn't respond to the rest of my post about improving the people already present n society and using that to try and eliminate the need people have for abortions. You have to start with the people who are here and can change things.
And even if I saw the parallel, it's not going to make anyone see the light about it when you are comparing their belief of women's right to choose if they have a child to slavery....if you believed it was truly say, ignorance on the part of pro choicers the better way to go about making a difference is not to make them feel like they are horrible people for wanting to stay out of people's business. Cuz that's how I see it.

Just like I stay out of the gay marriage advocates way, I can't say I totally agree or are comfortable with it, it's somethin totally out of my scope...and it ain't my business. I treat abortion the same way. I'm guna let the master answer on those issues.

How can I say goodbye P.L.G.
Originally Posted by B-Nessa11
Well it is a noble thing to do. To try to improve every situation. I would LOVE if everyone in America was happy as a clam and wanted 10 babies and taught them right from wrong and we could have a happy little bubble here. But the truth is, some people will always feel like they 'need' to get an abortion. Some will do it regardless, even if it is outlawed. Just as people set bombs off at marathons and kill innocent children at school and snip the necks of babies born alive for their morbid pleasure. People are crazy.

The thing with this is, what is the cut off point? If we can cut the desire for abortion in half, is that enough to outlaw it? When will the desire be so low that we can say we can outlaw it? It would be arbitrary. Plus, there are people who use it as a form of birth control. Many people would be tremendously more careful like they were before Roe if abortion was outlawed and they knew it wasnt an option to fall back on.

We have made huge advances in birth control and we get it to more and more people, but yet the abortion rate is still high. Why is that? In the back of people's minds, they know they can always get rid of the baby. And as far as taking care of a baby, you can always give him/her up for adoption. That is the humane choice when you cannot take care of your child. I don't think it is too much to demand humanity from the citizens of this country.
I didn't mean abortion is a law. I mean the laws that our society originally started with were based from their religious beliefs and morals.

How can I say goodbye P.L.G.
Originally Posted by B-Nessa11
Well, not entirely because there were a few secular influences in the writing of our Constitution. Either way, there was no federal abortion law so pointing out that our laws stem somewhat for religion seems to grasp at straws on the point we are discussing. Unless you are insisting that the right to life is too religious and ought not be in the Constitution. And I don't think you want to say that.
Originally Posted by TheMisses
My point in mentioning the law is when you said we cannot use religion to decide when life begins when the people who started America were generally religious people. Religion played a large part in the shaping of the modern world, so it shouldnt be a surprise when someone uses it to justify or rebut an argument.

I didn't say there are abortion laws in place. I think a lot of what's been said n this thread is grasping at straws....but it is interesting

How can I say goodbye P.L.G.
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BC- May 16, 2010
Why I chopped: heat damage/breakage
Luv'd my permed hair I just didnt take care of it.
LUVVV my natural hair!!!
Also, you kinda didn't respond to the rest of my post about improving the people already present n society and using that to try and eliminate the need people have for abortions. You have to start with the people who are here and can change things.
And even if I saw the parallel, it's not going to make anyone see the light about it when you are comparing their belief of women's right to choose if they have a child to slavery....if you believed it was truly say, ignorance on the part of pro choicers the better way to go about making a difference is not to make them feel like they are horrible people for wanting to stay out of people's business. Cuz that's how I see it.

Just like I stay out of the gay marriage advocates way, I can't say I totally agree or are comfortable with it, it's somethin totally out of my scope...and it ain't my business. I treat abortion the same way. I'm guna let the master answer on those issues.

How can I say goodbye P.L.G.
Originally Posted by B-Nessa11
Well it is a noble thing to do. To try to improve every situation. I would LOVE if everyone in America was happy as a clam and wanted 10 babies and taught them right from wrong and we could have a happy little bubble here. But the truth is, some people will always feel like they 'need' to get an abortion. Some will do it regardless, even if it is outlawed. Just as people set bombs off at marathons and kill innocent children at school and snip the necks of babies born alive for their morbid pleasure. People are crazy.

The thing with this is, what is the cut off point? If we can cut the desire for abortion in half, is that enough to outlaw it? When will the desire be so low that we can say we can outlaw it? It would be arbitrary. Plus, there are people who use it as a form of birth control. Many people would be tremendously more careful like they were before Roe if abortion was outlawed and they knew it wasnt an option to fall back on.

We have made huge advances in birth control and we get it to more and more people, but yet the abortion rate is still high. Why is that? In the back of people's minds, they know they can always get rid of the baby. And as far as taking care of a baby, you can always give him/her up for adoption. That is the humane choice when you cannot take care of your child. I don't think it is too much to demand humanity from the citizens of this country.
Originally Posted by TheMisses
Yup some people will feel like they need one. However wouldn't it be more effective to improve the lives of the women more likely to choose abortion? Open up more resources to them and their children, making education a true priority in every state, making child care easier to get for women who have children under school aged who want to go to college. Federal and state would have to really step their game up.

Lol I find it hilarious that when I talk about improving the lives of those most likely to have an abortion you just gloss over it. How is it just more reasonable to outlaw something and take away the rights of a woman more plausible than helping the women more likely to have abortions before they even occur. Is possibly cutting the rate of abortion by 10,20,30% not good enough to start?

How about we advocate for REAL sex education in schools and teaching prevention and safety and continue to make women's healthcare available and educate these future men about sex as well. Prevention is the best cure to something like this.

How can I say goodbye P.L.G.
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Yup some people will feel like they need one. However wouldn't it be more effective to improve the lives of the women more likely to choose abortion? Open up more resources to them and their children, making education a true priority in every state, making child care easier to get for women who have children under school aged who want to go to college. Federal and state would have to really step their game up.

Lol I find it hilarious that when I talk about improving the lives of those most likely to have an abortion you just gloss over it. How is it just more reasonable to outlaw something and take away the rights of a woman more plausible than helping the women more likely to have abortions before they even occur. Is possibly cutting the rate of abortion by 10,20,30% not good enough to start?

How about we advocate for REAL sex education in schools and teaching prevention and safety and continue to make women's healthcare available and educate these future men about sex as well. Prevention is the best cure to something like this.

How can I say goodbye P.L.G.
Originally Posted by B-Nessa11
I am not glossing over this, I am just stating that it is a noble idea, but it isn't that plausible. Plus your idea relies on the government to improve peoples lives for them which cannot be done. I'm a believer that the more the government comes in and acts as the 'nanny' for people, the less full their lives become because they are not fully autonomous. Achievements become somewhat tainted and deprives people of happiness. So that just may be a side area in philosophies in which we differ.

Did you know that if you get your high school diploma, and get married BEFORE you decide to have children, your chances of being in poverty are about 2%. That is something the government cant force people to do. It has to come from within the families and many poorer families have lost these, possibly religiously motivated values that, even if they were from religion, were positive and improved the standard of living for all people.

Education in this country is a totally disgrace and many people have been trying to change things, but the teachers unions are a powerful force and in many states, they are in bed with the politicians and that prevents progress in education. So it is up to the PEOPLE of those communities to demand changes in their education system. If they don't value it, change will be difficult to come by.

Childcare, I don't know what you would have the gov't do except watch the kids for people, which means everyones tax dollars now has to pay for watching millions of kids. Is that your answer for this?

Sex ed is taught. I think it should be left to parents to teach their children sex ed, not schools. That way if a parent wants to teach their child about birth control etc they can and other parents can teach abstinence.
Smh. If you have no idea how the government can help with childcare that just proves the belief that I've had all along, you don't know what it is to be one of those women who need help. I didnt say the government had to do anything FOR them. N there's no way I can educate you on the ways the government is trying to help but things need to change. It is plausible. It just depends on what you're willing to do. If you want women to "choose life" no matter what ur guna have to make them feel like once that kid gets here that ur guna help take care of it. Yup tax payers like us are guna take a hit, but it's it just prima facie wrong to choose our pockets over doing whatever we can to make these mothers lives easier? Lol
How can I say goodbye P.L.G.
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Luv'd my permed hair I just didnt take care of it.
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I am not glossing over this, I am just stating that it is a noble idea, but it isn't that plausible. Plus your idea relies on the government to improve peoples lives for them which cannot be done. I'm a believer that the more the government comes in and acts as the 'nanny' for people, the less full their lives become because they are not fully autonomous. Achievements become somewhat tainted and deprives people of happiness. So that just may be a side area in philosophies in which we differ.
Originally Posted by TheMisses


Oh, that's rich. Now I know you're getting your talking points directly from right wing hate websites.

You're so against the "nanny state", yet you want to monitor every single uterus of every single American woman to make sure the government is getting it's expected outcome. Just how big do you think the government will need to be to monitor all these uteri?!?!? Talk about nanny state...@@...women can't be trusted with their own uterine contents.
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Yea, the government should be the nanny for MILLIONS of kids who's mothers cant afford child care just like you think the government should outlaw abortion and guarantee into creation all those millions of fetuses that would have other wise been aborted....
Why is it implausible for the ENTIRE system to work towards change and accommodate those who are less fortunate for whatever reason as to improve society as a whole?

You want to rally so hard about these babies not being born but u think it's ridiculous for me to expect the government or people in my society to help take care of them.
I'm going to tell you something, the day abortion is gone,legally or illegally is the day when society as a whole has looked at every area of itself and improved for the greater good and for the individual.
The day I'll be ok with the government telling me that I must have a baby that's growing inside of me, is going to have to be the day when Childcare Resources and headstart programs (govt funded btw) doesn't have a list that literally takes years for your name to come up. (I've had my daughter on the list since she was born and her name has yet to come up). With that help, I can have that new baby knowing I can still work (Pay Taxes), and still spend time raising my child. Where all schools teach their teens about their options of birth control and safe sex and we stop being ignorant about the fact abstinence don't work for every teen its taught to. And housing projects that are half empty yet have a 2yr waiting list. Gtfoh. It's not impossible. It takes a village. It's takes a nation.

How can I say goodbye P.L.G.
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Why I chopped: heat damage/breakage
Luv'd my permed hair I just didnt take care of it.
LUVVV my natural hair!!!

I am not glossing over this, I am just stating that it is a noble idea, but it isn't that plausible. Plus your idea relies on the government to improve peoples lives for them which cannot be done. I'm a believer that the more the government comes in and acts as the 'nanny' for people, the less full their lives become because they are not fully autonomous. Achievements become somewhat tainted and deprives people of happiness. So that just may be a side area in philosophies in which we differ.
Originally Posted by TheMisses


Oh, that's rich. Now I know you're getting your talking points directly from right wing hate websites.

You're so against the "nanny state", yet you want to monitor every single uterus of every single American woman to make sure the government is getting it's expected outcome. Just how big do you think the government will need to be to monitor all these uteri?!?!? Talk about nanny state...@@...women can't be trusted with their own uterine contents.
Originally Posted by RedCatWaves
Lmao! Exactly!

How can I say goodbye P.L.G.
Who's My Hair?
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BC- May 16, 2010
Why I chopped: heat damage/breakage
Luv'd my permed hair I just didnt take care of it.
LUVVV my natural hair!!!

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