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Old 04-16-2013, 11:25 AM   #41
 
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Yes, he performed these abortions mostly on women of a lower socioeconomic group. But do you really think there aren't White drs performing late term abortions and other nefarious acts in affluent White neighborhhoods? They're just not getting raided by the cops.
While it is understood you have a strong opinion on this subject, please refrain from the graphic depictions.
In SL's defense, it is simply not possible to discuss this specific topic without the shockingly gruesome details. The needless inhumanity of Kermit Gosnell's clinic is the heart of the matter.

But no, this does NOT happen to affluent white women, many of whom have access to a sympathetic OB-GYN who would perform an abortion in their safe, sanitary office. Several of the women who went to Gosnell were severely injured and at least one died. Rest assured, if that had happened to the Daughters of the Revolution, he would have been shut down in a New York minute.

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Exactly. There are ways to do even a very late term abortion that's safe for the woman and nothing at all like described. This does NOT happen to people with money and/or decent insurance.
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Old 04-16-2013, 11:37 AM   #42
 
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Yes, he performed these abortions mostly on women of a lower socioeconomic group. But do you really think there aren't White drs performing late term abortions and other nefarious acts in affluent White neighborhhoods? They're just not getting raided by the cops.
While it is understood you have a strong opinion on this subject, please refrain from the graphic depictions.
In SL's defense, it is simply not possible to discuss this specific topic without the shockingly gruesome details. The needless inhumanity of Kermit Gosnell's clinic is the heart of the matter.

But no, this does NOT happen to affluent white women, many of whom have access to a sympathetic OB-GYN who would perform an abortion in their safe, sanitary office. Several of the women who went to Gosnell were severely injured and at least one died. Rest assured, if that had happened to the Daughters of the Revolution, he would have been shut down in a New York minute.

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It -- late term abortion -- does happen to affluent White ppl. IMO the aborted and murdered babies are ppl, too.

One didn't die. Tens of thousands died.

The fact that one person died this way and the other person died that way is immaterial to me. It's all terrible; I'm not making up arbitrary distinctions to say why this killing was perfectly great and that killing was horrible and sick and depraved, and the other kiling was par for the course and the next killing was an outrage, etc.
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Old 04-16-2013, 11:39 AM   #43
 
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While it is understood you have a strong opinion on this subject, please refrain from the graphic depictions.
In SL's defense, it is simply not possible to discuss this specific topic without the shockingly gruesome details. The needless inhumanity of Kermit Gosnell's clinic is the heart of the matter.

But no, this does NOT happen to affluent white women, many of whom have access to a sympathetic OB-GYN who would perform an abortion in their safe, sanitary office. Several of the women who went to Gosnell were severely injured and at least one died. Rest assured, if that had happened to the Daughters of the Revolution, he would have been shut down in a New York minute.

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Exactly. There are ways to do even a very late term abortion that's safe for the woman and nothing at all like described. This does NOT happen to people with money and/or decent insurance.
But it's never safe for the baby. Whether it's killed inside or out, it's killed. And that is the sad part to me.
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Old 04-16-2013, 11:43 AM   #44
 
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In SL's defense, it is simply not possible to discuss this specific topic without the shockingly gruesome details. The needless inhumanity of Kermit Gosnell's clinic is the heart of the matter.

But no, this does NOT happen to affluent white women, many of whom have access to a sympathetic OB-GYN who would perform an abortion in their safe, sanitary office. Several of the women who went to Gosnell were severely injured and at least one died. Rest assured, if that had happened to the Daughters of the Revolution, he would have been shut down in a New York minute.

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Exactly. There are ways to do even a very late term abortion that's safe for the woman and nothing at all like described. This does NOT happen to people with money and/or decent insurance.
But it's never safe for the baby. Whether it's killed inside or out, it's killed. And that is the sad part to me.
This is where there's no point for argument. If SL considers a fetus a baby, and abortion murder, she will have a strong opinion one way.

If another person sees a fetus as something attached to a host, that is not a human being on its own, they will have a strong opinion another.

This is why this fight goes nowhere. There's no convincing on either side. Just different views.
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Old 04-16-2013, 11:54 AM   #45
 
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Exactly. There are ways to do even a very late term abortion that's safe for the woman and nothing at all like described. This does NOT happen to people with money and/or decent insurance.
But it's never safe for the baby. Whether it's killed inside or out, it's killed. And that is the sad part to me.
This is where there's no point for argument. If SL considers a fetus a baby, and abortion murder, she will have a strong opinion one way.

If another person sees a fetus as something attached to a host, that is not a human being on its own, they will have a strong opinion another.

This is why this fight goes nowhere. There's no convincing on either side. Just different views.

I think discussion can help ppl consider different POVs. It has for me. But in this case, the arguments aren't rational to me.

Abortion before 21 weeks = good, empowered, feminist, strong, happy, caring, helpful, "wombanyst", responsible

Abortion after 21 (or whatever) weeks = terrible, evil, criminal, sick, depressing, barbaric, exploitive

Just some phoney distinction or loophole or whatever so the pro-choice can still have a 5 month abortion window. Throw in that the victims were poor and POC, and it's a field day of political correctness.

I would just have more respect if the pro-choicers just said they were OK w/ late term abortions and supported Gosnell for the his creative abortion techniques.
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Old 04-16-2013, 11:56 AM   #46
 
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While it is understood you have a strong opinion on this subject, please refrain from the graphic depictions.
In SL's defense, it is simply not possible to discuss this specific topic without the shockingly gruesome details. The needless inhumanity of Kermit Gosnell's clinic is the heart of the matter.

But no, this does NOT happen to affluent white women, many of whom have access to a sympathetic OB-GYN who would perform an abortion in their safe, sanitary office. Several of the women who went to Gosnell were severely injured and at least one died. Rest assured, if that had happened to the Daughters of the Revolution, he would have been shut down in a New York minute.

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It -- late term abortion -- does happen to affluent White ppl. IMO the aborted and murdered babies are ppl, too.

One didn't die. Tens of thousands died.

The fact that one person died this way and the other person died that way is immaterial to me. It's all terrible; I'm not making up arbitrary distinctions to say why this killing was perfectly great and that killing was horrible and sick and depraved, and the other kiling was par for the course and the next killing was an outrage, etc.


Yes, the fetus dies in abortion. That's understood. I guess it all boils down to whether one thinks it's OK for poor women to be punished for having abortions when rich women are not...and also whether one thinks perforated uteri, STD infections, and death are a good punishment.
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Old 04-16-2013, 11:57 AM   #47
 
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In SL's defense, it is simply not possible to discuss this specific topic without the shockingly gruesome details. The needless inhumanity of Kermit Gosnell's clinic is the heart of the matter.

But no, this does NOT happen to affluent white women, many of whom have access to a sympathetic OB-GYN who would perform an abortion in their safe, sanitary office. Several of the women who went to Gosnell were severely injured and at least one died. Rest assured, if that had happened to the Daughters of the Revolution, he would have been shut down in a New York minute.

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Exactly. There are ways to do even a very late term abortion that's safe for the woman and nothing at all like described. This does NOT happen to people with money and/or decent insurance.
But it's never safe for the baby. Whether it's killed inside or out, it's killed. And that is the sad part to me.
Eh, if you cared that much you'd be a major advocate for readily available first trimester abortions. If you think there's no difference between first and third trimester abortions there's not point to this conversation, since neither of us can understand the other's position.

It's sad no matter how you look at it and since we have to choose sides, I'm siding with women every time. I do think the way an abortion is carried out matters which is why the Gosnell case is so horrific.
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Old 04-16-2013, 11:58 AM   #48
 
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Yes, he performed these abortions mostly on women of a lower socioeconomic group. But do you really think there aren't White drs performing late term abortions and other nefarious acts in affluent White neighborhhoods? They're just not getting raided by the cops.
While it is understood you have a strong opinion on this subject, please refrain from the graphic depictions.
In SL's defense, it is simply not possible to discuss this specific topic without the shockingly gruesome details. The needless inhumanity of Kermit Gosnell's clinic is the heart of the matter.

But no, this does NOT happen to affluent white women, many of whom have access to a sympathetic OB-GYN who would perform an abortion in their safe, sanitary office. Several of the women who went to Gosnell were severely injured and at least one died. Rest assured, if that had happened to the Daughters of the Revolution, he would have been shut down in a New York minute.

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Actually, I believe the White "expert" abortionist who testified against Gosnell yesterday admitted one of his office's abortion patients died from complications, too. I believe he testified to this on the stand yesterday. And that is what he is admitting to...
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Old 04-16-2013, 11:59 AM   #49
 
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But it's never safe for the baby. Whether it's killed inside or out, it's killed. And that is the sad part to me.
This is where there's no point for argument. If SL considers a fetus a baby, and abortion murder, she will have a strong opinion one way.

If another person sees a fetus as something attached to a host, that is not a human being on its own, they will have a strong opinion another.

This is why this fight goes nowhere. There's no convincing on either side. Just different views.

I think discussion can help ppl consider different POVs. It has for me. But in this case, the arguments aren't rational to me.

Abortion before 21 weeks = good, empowered, feminist, strong, happy, caring, helpful, "wombanyst", responsible

Abortion after 21 (or whatever) weeks = terrible, evil, criminal, sick, depressing, barbaric, exploitive

Just some phoney distinction or loophole or whatever so the pro-choice can still have a 5 month abortion window. Throw in that the victims were poor and POC, and it's a field day of political correctness.

I would just have more respect if the pro-choicers just said they were OK w/ late term abortions and supported Gosnell for the his creative abortion techniques.
How does being okay with late term abortions = supporting Gosnell? You clearly have no idea how legal abortion are done, which is fine, not many do. But don't go ascribing motives based on facts you don't know.
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Old 04-16-2013, 12:06 PM   #50
 
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Exactly. There are ways to do even a very late term abortion that's safe for the woman and nothing at all like described. This does NOT happen to people with money and/or decent insurance.
But it's never safe for the baby. Whether it's killed inside or out, it's killed. And that is the sad part to me.
Eh, if you cared that much you'd be a major advocate for readily available first trimester abortions. If you think there's no difference between first and third trimester abortions there's not point to this conversation, since neither of us can understand the other's position.

It's sad no matter how you look at it and since we have to choose sides, I'm siding with women every time. I do think the way an abortion is carried out matters which is why the Gosnell case is so horrific.
Personally, I find them all equivalently egregious.

It is what I consider the hypocracy of pro-choicers in heartily supporing one type of abortion and a couple of weeks later calling it "sick" and "cruel" that I'm finding especially strange.
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Old 04-16-2013, 12:11 PM   #51
 
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This is where there's no point for argument. If SL considers a fetus a baby, and abortion murder, she will have a strong opinion one way.

If another person sees a fetus as something attached to a host, that is not a human being on its own, they will have a strong opinion another.

This is why this fight goes nowhere. There's no convincing on either side. Just different views.

I think discussion can help ppl consider different POVs. It has for me. But in this case, the arguments aren't rational to me.

Abortion before 21 weeks = good, empowered, feminist, strong, happy, caring, helpful, "wombanyst", responsible

Abortion after 21 (or whatever) weeks = terrible, evil, criminal, sick, depressing, barbaric, exploitive

Just some phoney distinction or loophole or whatever so the pro-choice can still have a 5 month abortion window. Throw in that the victims were poor and POC, and it's a field day of political correctness.

I would just have more respect if the pro-choicers just said they were OK w/ late term abortions and supported Gosnell for the his creative abortion techniques.
How does being okay with late term abortions = supporting Gosnell? You clearly have no idea how legal abortion are done, which is fine, not many do. But don't go ascribing motives based on facts you don't know.
Yes, I know how they are done. And the differences btwn the various methods, based on gestational age, is immaterial to me. The result is the same.

Gosnell employed some shady practices for sure (even by abortion industry standards) but some of the complaints against him relate to the the late gestational age. And those are most distateful to me.
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Old 04-16-2013, 12:11 PM   #52
 
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But it's never safe for the baby. Whether it's killed inside or out, it's killed. And that is the sad part to me.
Eh, if you cared that much you'd be a major advocate for readily available first trimester abortions. If you think there's no difference between first and third trimester abortions there's not point to this conversation, since neither of us can understand the other's position.

It's sad no matter how you look at it and since we have to choose sides, I'm siding with women every time. I do think the way an abortion is carried out matters which is why the Gosnell case is so horrific.
Personally, I find them all equivalently egregious.

It is what I consider the hypocracy of pro-choicers in heartily supporing one type of abortion and a couple of weeks later calling it "sick" and "cruel" that I'm finding especially strange.
You're conflating two different things. Yes some pro-choice advocates (not me, personally) draw the line at viability for reasons that should be obvious. And yes, most of people--even those of us who are not against later-term abortions--find Gosnell's actions sick and cruel. The two are not related.
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Old 04-16-2013, 12:20 PM   #53
 
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Actually, I believe the White "expert" abortionist who testified against Gosnell yesterday admitted one of his office's abortion patients died from complications, too. I believe he testified to this on the stand yesterday. And that is what he is admitting to...
More women die during childbirth in the US than from abortions. As a medical procedure, abortion is one of the safest for the patient to undergo.

Differentiating between painless methods of ending a pregnancy and those that inflict unnecessary suffering on the fetus/baby is not hypocritical, but merciful. I am strongly opposed to the death penalty, but I recognize that some ways of executing a person are more compassionate than others. If we must have capital punishment, let it be as quick and painless as possible.



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Old 04-16-2013, 12:23 PM   #54
 
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Eh, if you cared that much you'd be a major advocate for readily available first trimester abortions. If you think there's no difference between first and third trimester abortions there's not point to this conversation, since neither of us can understand the other's position.

It's sad no matter how you look at it and since we have to choose sides, I'm siding with women every time. I do think the way an abortion is carried out matters which is why the Gosnell case is so horrific.
Personally, I find them all equivalently egregious.

It is what I consider the hypocracy of pro-choicers in heartily supporing one type of abortion and a couple of weeks later calling it "sick" and "cruel" that I'm finding especially strange.
You're conflating two different things. Yes some pro-choice advocates (not me, personally) draw the line at viability for reasons that should be obvious. And yes, most of people--even those of us who are not against later-term abortions--find Gosnell's actions sick and cruel. The two are not related.
For me, personally, the greater outrage stems from kiling babies - in utero and not.

His careless and unprofesional treatment of the mothers is bad also but sadly common in lower socioeconomic areas. But that kind of thing can be seen in a variety of settings...not just reproductive health.
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Old 04-16-2013, 12:27 PM   #55
 
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More women die during childbirth in the US than from abortions. As a medical procedure, abortion is one of the safest for the patient to undergo.
Not relevent and beside the point. You said White women or affluent women or whatever don't die from abortions and I said yes they do...one was just mentioned in court yesterday.

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Differentiating between painless methods of ending a pregnancy and those that inflict unnecessary suffering on the fetus/baby is not hypocritical, but merciful. I am strongly opposed to the dwath penalty, but I recognize that some ways of executing a person are more compassionate than others. If we must have capital punishment, let it be as quick and painless as possible.
I don't support "compasionate" ways of doing things I don't agree with.



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Old 04-16-2013, 12:38 PM   #56
 
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I don't support "compasionate" ways of doing things I don't agree with.
I don't have such a Manichean view of the world. I recognize that not everyone agrees with me, & would rather work towards a reasonable compromise that improves society for all concerned.

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Old 04-16-2013, 12:49 PM   #57
 
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More women die during childbirth in the US than from abortions. As a medical procedure, abortion is one of the safest for the patient to undergo.
Not relevent and beside the point. You said White women or affluent women or whatever don't die from abortions and I said yes they do...one was just mentioned in court yesterday.
Completely relevant - you want to make the rare exception the rule. People of all backgrounds die from medical errors and complications, but 1) the likelihood is far lower for those who can afford quality care and 2) seldom occurs from abortion, especially when performed by a highly trained professional in a sterile environment (i.e., one to which wealthy white women have access).

I could easily cite cases in which women died during childbirth. Shall we then ban pregnancy because of the risk to the mother?

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I'm saying that yes, unfortunately ppl die during routine medical procedures. Sometimes they are Black, sometimes they are White. Sometimes they are poor, sometimes they are affluent. Sometimes they are treated by w/ Dr. kermit Gosnell, sometimes they are treated by w/ Dr. Rich White. It happens. It happens more in the hood, yes, but it happens all over, sadly. The real issue to me in general is abortion. And the real issue to me in this thread is the arbitrary 21 week g distinction.
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Old 04-16-2013, 01:21 PM   #58
 
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Once upon a time i was against abortion. I would love for their to be a day where women wont need to abort for what ever reasons. But for that to happen we need to give all women and young girls easy access to sex education and birth control. We need better laws to protect women and girls against rape and end the stigma and shame that goes with it, so when they are assaulted they are not afraid to come forth and possibly prevent the unwanted preganacy. When abortion was illegal, women had to go to hack doctors to have unwanted praganacies terminated. Many died and some were never able to get pragnant again. This Gosnell is an example of what the women in the pass has had to go through. What disperate women and girls went through for years. I dont want our society to go back to that.
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Old 04-16-2013, 03:13 PM   #59
 
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Once upon a time i was against abortion. I would love for their to be a day where women wont need to abort for what ever reasons. But for that to happen we need to give all women and young girls easy access to sex education and birth control. We need better laws to protect women and girls against rape and end the stigma and shame that goes with it, so when they are assaulted they are not afraid to come forth and possibly prevent the unwanted preganacy. When abortion was illegal, women had to go to hack doctors to have unwanted praganacies terminated. Many died and some were never able to get pragnant again. This Gosnell is an example of what the women in the pass has had to go through. What disperate women and girls went through for years. I dont want our society to go back to that.
This, especially the bolded.

Abstinence only sex ed simply does not work; moreover, it cheapens marriage by depicting it as a cure for celibacy. (If sex is only ok if you're married, then why not just get hitched so you can have sex!)

Abortion should be safe, legal and rare. In order for that to happen, people need accurate information and affordable contraception. How difficult is that??

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Old 04-16-2013, 04:15 PM   #60
 
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Disgusting...but then again, I think abortion is, in general. I don't really distinguish btwn what he did and any other abortionists.

I don't wanna be rude but I'mma go ahead and be rude and say it's probably because you don't know anything about abortions or bodies....at all. Period. Reaaaaddd.


If I didn't know you as a regular poster I would assume you were a troll with that sentence.

Because she views a fetus as a baby, and abortion as murder, she probably doesn't distinguish between this and any other abortion. She considers it brutal and she is certainly entitled to her opinion.

Nope, that's not what I'm saying, I'm saying her sentence sounds trollish. I'm not going to argue with her because, she can believe whatever she wants, but she sounds like a troll.



I read this thread, just. no. No.
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