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Old 04-16-2013, 04:35 PM   #61
 
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I don't wanna be rude but I'mma go ahead and be rude and say it's probably because you don't know anything about abortions or bodies....at all. Period. Reaaaaddd.


If I didn't know you as a regular poster I would assume you were a troll with that sentence.

Because she views a fetus as a baby, and abortion as murder, she probably doesn't distinguish between this and any other abortion. She considers it brutal and she is certainly entitled to her opinion.

Nope, that's not what I'm saying, I'm saying her sentence sounds trollish. I'm not going to argue with her because, she can believe whatever she wants, but she sounds like a troll.



I read this thread, just. no. No.
I agree with you Murrrcat. While I know SL is not a troll, her statement sounds trollish and deliberately provocative, as do her subsequent statements in this thread. It doesn't do any good to even try to discuss this topic with somebody who starts off with a trollish statement.
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Old 04-16-2013, 05:15 PM   #62
 
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Because she views a fetus as a baby, and abortion as murder, she probably doesn't distinguish between this and any other abortion. She considers it brutal and she is certainly entitled to her opinion.

Nope, that's not what I'm saying, I'm saying her sentence sounds trollish. I'm not going to argue with her because, she can believe whatever she wants, but she sounds like a troll.



I read this thread, just. no. No.
I agree with you Murrrcat. While I know SL is not a troll, her statement sounds trollish and deliberately provocative, as do her subsequent statements in this thread. It doesn't do any good to even try to discuss this topic with somebody who starts off with a trollish statement.
How was her post trollish? People are expressing their beliefs and opinions here. Her statements are no more provocative than anyone else's.
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Old 04-16-2013, 05:56 PM   #63
 
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I don't see SL's 1st statement coming off trollish at all. I think it's more that she is in the minority in this thread with her beliefs on abortion. I don't think having a different opinion/belief makes someone a troll or acting trollish. I think a troll is someone who is trying to start up controversy and get people heated up. I didn't get that from her statement.
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Old 04-16-2013, 06:23 PM   #64
 
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When put together with her subsequent, she sounded deliberately provocative to me. I literally thought to myself, "Whoa," when I read her first post. Her second post was enough that I called her out. I still don't know what her response to me meant but I didn't take it as anything but...yep...trollish. Trolls are deliberately provocative. Ergo, she sounded trollish.

I am not going to continue to post in this thread because I do not see any point to it.
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Old 04-17-2013, 08:09 AM   #65
 
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Buh Bye Now.....
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Old 04-17-2013, 08:22 AM   #66
 
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Buh Bye Now.....
Really!
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Old 04-17-2013, 08:26 AM   #67
 
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I don't wanna be rude but I'mma go ahead and be rude and say it's probably because you don't know anything about abortions or bodies....at all. Period. Reaaaaddd.


If I didn't know you as a regular poster I would assume you were a troll with that sentence.

Because she views a fetus as a baby, and abortion as murder, she probably doesn't distinguish between this and any other abortion. She considers it brutal and she is certainly entitled to her opinion.

Nope, that's not what I'm saying, I'm saying her sentence sounds trollish. I'm not going to argue with her because, she can believe whatever she wants, but she sounds like a troll.



I read this thread, just. no. No.
Sorry to break it to you but not everyone thinks the same way that you do. Even on NC where you are mocked and ganged up on for having opposing POVs, yes, opposing POVs still exist.
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Old 04-18-2013, 10:18 AM   #68
 
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But it's never safe for the baby. Whether it's killed inside or out, it's killed. And that is the sad part to me.
This is where there's no point for argument. If SL considers a fetus a baby, and abortion murder, she will have a strong opinion one way.

If another person sees a fetus as something attached to a host, that is not a human being on its own, they will have a strong opinion another.

This is why this fight goes nowhere. There's no convincing on either side. Just different views.

I think discussion can help ppl consider different POVs. It has for me. But in this case, the arguments aren't rational to me.

Abortion before 21 weeks = good, empowered, feminist, strong, happy, caring, helpful, "wombanyst", responsible

Abortion after 21 (or whatever) weeks = terrible, evil, criminal, sick, depressing, barbaric, exploitive

Just some phoney distinction or loophole or whatever so the pro-choice can still have a 5 month abortion window. Throw in that the victims were poor and POC, and it's a field day of political correctness.

I would just have more respect if the pro-choicers just said they were OK w/ late term abortions and supported Gosnell for the his creative abortion techniques.
I don't see a fetus the same as a human. I'm not a fan of late term abortions but to me it's not the same as killing a delivered baby. I do understand and respect your viewpoint. It is killing, and I'm okay with killing fetuses.
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Old 04-18-2013, 10:22 AM   #69
 
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wow
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Old 04-18-2013, 10:24 AM   #70
 
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Because she views a fetus as a baby, and abortion as murder, she probably doesn't distinguish between this and any other abortion. She considers it brutal and she is certainly entitled to her opinion.

Nope, that's not what I'm saying, I'm saying her sentence sounds trollish. I'm not going to argue with her because, she can believe whatever she wants, but she sounds like a troll.



I read this thread, just. no. No.
I agree with you Murrrcat. While I know SL is not a troll, her statement sounds trollish and deliberately provocative, as do her subsequent statements in this thread. It doesn't do any good to even try to discuss this topic with somebody who starts off with a trollish statement.
I don't see it as trollish at all. It's her opinion! And yes it is provocative to the other side but that doesn't mean its trollish, lol. Attacking someone who has a differing opinion is quite closeminded, and yea I used to do that too, but try not to.
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Old 04-18-2013, 11:05 AM   #71
 
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I have found that folks on the anti-choice side of the abortion argument often just don't seem to have enough nuanced reasoning ability to understand why we have different abortion laws based on gestational age. Early abortion is legal in all states in America because most people agree that to give full legal rights to a less-than-20-week fetus means you have to take some legal rights away from the pregnant woman, including the right to privacy and the right to make choices about her own body. Most Americans agree a woman shouldn't be forced to put her life in danger for a baby she doesn't want (and every pregnancy risks a woman's life). After viability (about 24 weeks), the fetus could potentially live on it's own outside of a woman's body, and that's why that gestational age is treated differently. There are a lot of other points to abortion laws too, like why we treat born babies differently from unborn fetuses, and why killing a born baby is murder and killing a fetus is not, but I probably won't waste my time explaining them.

The fact remains that Gosnell murdered born babies and born women. He practiced medicine unsafely and endangered and killed many women and babies, not just fetuses. He is a prime example of what a back-alley-abortionist looks like. They're not fiends with coat hangers who practice in dark outdoor places. They're incompetent medical practitioners who prey on poor women because their medical skills are not good enough, and their moral skills not high enough, to practice properly on rich women.
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Old 04-18-2013, 11:17 AM   #72
 
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Really? So do you actually think people who are prochoice don't know what abortion is? It is killing a fetus or embryo. One side is okay with it, the other is not.
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Old 04-18-2013, 11:44 AM   #73
 
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I don't see a fetus the same as a human. I'm not a fan of late term abortions but to me it's not the same as killing a delivered baby. I do understand and respect your viewpoint. It is killing, and I'm okay with killing fetuses.
This is the part I said wow about. I know that's how many people feel. But I just never heard it put so directly before. It's just a mindset I don't understand, is all. It's very shocking to me.
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Old 04-18-2013, 11:46 AM   #74
 
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wow
Really? So do you actually think people who are prochoice don't know what abortion is? It is killing a fetus or embryo. One side is okay with it, the other is not.


I don't even bother responding to TNB's "wow" comments. She does it constantly in serious conversations. If she can't be bothered composing a real post, then I can't be bothered trying to decipher what she's trying to say with her odd exclamations.
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Old 04-18-2013, 11:53 AM   #75
 
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I don't see a fetus the same as a human. I'm not a fan of late term abortions but to me it's not the same as killing a delivered baby. I do understand and respect your viewpoint. It is killing, and I'm okay with killing fetuses.
This is the part I said wow about. I know that's how many people feel. But I just never heard it put so directly before. It's just a mindset I don't understand, is all. It's very shocking to me.
Oh okay. I guess I'm confused why it's shocking if you know many people feel that way. I didn't know that being direct was uncommon. It is what it is.
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Old 04-18-2013, 12:03 PM   #76
 
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I don't see a fetus the same as a human. I'm not a fan of late term abortions but to me it's not the same as killing a delivered baby. I do understand and respect your viewpoint. It is killing, and I'm okay with killing fetuses.
This is the part I said wow about. I know that's how many people feel. But I just never heard it put so directly before. It's just a mindset I don't understand, is all. It's very shocking to me.


Most people don't see fetuses, especially early fetuses, as being on the same level as an already-born sentient human. They can't survive on their own, so they are only potential life. I don't know why this shocks you. Even in deepest conservative Mississippi, the people rejected a "personhood" amendment to their state's constitution that would give the same rights to a fetus as an already-born citizen has. Because they know it would wreak havoc on their social norms and set women back a hundred years. It would make birth control illegal. It would make fertility treatments illegal. It would make pregnant women criminals for smoking a cigarette. Maybe horseback riding would be cause to put a pregnant woman in jail. No, America does not want to give fetuses full rights.
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Old 04-18-2013, 12:08 PM   #77
 
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I have found that folks on the anti-choice side of the abortion argument often just don't seem to have enough nuanced reasoning ability to understand why we have different abortion laws based on gestational age. Early abortion is legal in all states in America because most people agree that to give full legal rights to a less-than-20-week fetus means you have to take some legal rights away from the pregnant woman, including the right to privacy and the right to make choices about her own body. Most Americans agree a woman shouldn't be forced to put her life in danger for a baby she doesn't want (and every pregnancy risks a woman's life). After viability (about 24 weeks), the fetus could potentially live on it's own outside of a woman's body, and that's why that gestational age is treated differently.
I agree with all of this, although I would rather use the medical definition of life, which is the presence of fetal brain waves. This occurs around 16 weeks, which IMO is a reasonable cutoff for abortion (with exceptions for the life of the mother). Viability changes with advances in medicine, whereas brain development is a fixed process.
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Old 04-18-2013, 12:10 PM   #78
 
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I don't see a fetus the same as a human. I'm not a fan of late term abortions but to me it's not the same as killing a delivered baby. I do understand and respect your viewpoint. It is killing, and I'm okay with killing fetuses.
This is the part I said wow about. I know that's how many people feel. But I just never heard it put so directly before. It's just a mindset I don't understand, is all. It's very shocking to me.
They can't survive on their own, so they are only potential life. I don't know why this shocks you..
Yep, I find the other viewpoint harder to make sense of although I somewhat understand it.
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Old 04-18-2013, 12:17 PM   #79
 
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I don't see a fetus the same as a human. I'm not a fan of late term abortions but to me it's not the same as killing a delivered baby. I do understand and respect your viewpoint. It is killing, and I'm okay with killing fetuses.
This is the part I said wow about. I know that's how many people feel. But I just never heard it put so directly before. It's just a mindset I don't understand, is all. It's very shocking to me.
Oh okay. I guess I'm confused why it's shocking if you know many people feel that way. I didn't know that being direct was uncommon. It is what it is.
Because, like I said, I don't usually hear it put this way: "I don't see a fetus the same as a human." But whatever.
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Old 04-18-2013, 12:31 PM   #80
 
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This is the part I said wow about. I know that's how many people feel. But I just never heard it put so directly before. It's just a mindset I don't understand, is all. It's very shocking to me.
Oh okay. I guess I'm confused why it's shocking if you know many people feel that way. I didn't know that being direct was uncommon. It is what it is.
Because, like I said, I don't usually hear it put this way: "I don't see a fetus the same as a human." But whatever.
And that's where the disconnect is. Prolifers see it as murder since they think fetuses are the same as humans. Prochoicers obviously don't so the murder argument doesn't apply or make sense.
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