Gosnell Trial

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I don't see it as 'murder'. Thats a little intense. It is not a born, living, in the world life, human - so murder, no. But I do see it as a potential life in its early starting out point. I think its wrong to dispose of the new potential life, just as I think its wrong to pull a sapling out of the ground, or dig up sprouted bulbs in a garden. I respect that its a potential life. *Obviously a weak analogy since I'm using plants, not humans.

Nevertheless, I know not everybody thinks the same as I do. As Spiderlashes pointed out, not everybody has the same point of view. Thats very true. We do not. Therefore it wouldn't be right to force my views about what is 'right' or 'wrong' in the form of laws on other people who don't feel the same. They need to be allowed to make that choice for themselves.

One person can see it as a life, and one person can see it as a fetus, and they have that choice. One person can view it as disposable, and one can view it as murder, and they can have that choice.

It really doesn't matter, legally, how you FEEL about it. How you FEEL can govern your personal decision, but people all have different feelings. We shouldn't force everyone to have the same feelings. Thats not possible.
Lotsawaves likes this.

Oh okay. I guess I'm confused why it's shocking if you know many people feel that way. I didn't know that being direct was uncommon. It is what it is.
Originally Posted by Josephine
Because, like I said, I don't usually hear it put this way: "I don't see a fetus the same as a human." But whatever.
Originally Posted by The New Black
And that's where the disconnect is. Prolifers see it as murder since they think fetuses are the same as humans. Prochoicers obviously don't so the murder argument doesn't apply or make sense.
Originally Posted by Josephine
I know and I think most people know. But you said you were confused about my shock. So I explained.
No MAS.

I am the new Black.

"Hope the Mail are saving space tomorrow for Samantha Brick's reaction piece on the reactions to her piece about the reactions to her piece." ~ Tweet reposted by Rou.

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Nevertheless, I know not everybody thinks the same as I do. As Spiderlashes pointed out, not everybody has the same point of view. Thats very true. We do not. Therefore it wouldn't be right to force my views about what is 'right' or 'wrong' in the form of laws on other people who don't feel the same. They need to be allowed to make that choice for themselves.

One person can see it as a life, and one person can see it as a fetus, and they have that choice. One person can view it as disposable, and one can view it as murder, and they can have that choice.

It really doesn't matter, legally, how you FEEL about it. How you FEEL can govern your personal decision, but people all have different feelings. We shouldn't force everyone to have the same feelings. Thats not possible.
Originally Posted by iroc
Absolutely true, but only one side in this debate wants to allow individuals to make their own decisions. Nobody is forcing a pregnant woman to have an abortion, but pro-lifers want to force that pregnant woman to carry the fetus/baby to term, using the law to impose their particular viewpoint on all women.
I don't see it as 'murder'. Thats a little intense. It is not a born, living, in the world life, human - so murder, no. But I do see it as a potential life in its early starting out point. I think its wrong to dispose of the new potential life, just as I think its wrong to pull a sapling out of the ground, or dig up sprouted bulbs in a garden. I respect that its a potential life. *Obviously a weak analogy since I'm using plants, not humans.

Nevertheless, I know not everybody thinks the same as I do. As Spiderlashes pointed out, not everybody has the same point of view. Thats very true. We do not. Therefore it wouldn't be right to force my views about what is 'right' or 'wrong' in the form of laws on other people who don't feel the same. They need to be allowed to make that choice for themselves.

One person can see it as a life, and one person can see it as a fetus, and they have that choice. One person can view it as disposable, and one can view it as murder, and they can have that choice.

It really doesn't matter, legally, how you FEEL about it. How you FEEL can govern your personal decision, but people all have different feelings. We shouldn't force everyone to have the same feelings. Thats not possible.
Originally Posted by iroc


Feelings have nothing to do with it. Most pro-choicers agree that fetuses are indeed alive, but they cannot have the same rights as a full human until/unless a woman decides to give it that life. For the government to bestow full rights means an already-born woman has to lose her rights. And that goes against all our founding principals.
Po likes this.
I don't see it as 'murder'. Thats a little intense. It is not a born, living, in the world life, human - so murder, no. But I do see it as a potential life in its early starting out point. I think its wrong to dispose of the new potential life, just as I think its wrong to pull a sapling out of the ground, or dig up sprouted bulbs in a garden. I respect that its a potential life. *Obviously a weak analogy since I'm using plants, not humans.

Nevertheless, I know not everybody thinks the same as I do. As Spiderlashes pointed out, not everybody has the same point of view. Thats very true. We do not. Therefore it wouldn't be right to force my views about what is 'right' or 'wrong' in the form of laws on other people who don't feel the same. They need to be allowed to make that choice for themselves.

One person can see it as a life, and one person can see it as a fetus, and they have that choice. One person can view it as disposable, and one can view it as murder, and they can have that choice.

It really doesn't matter, legally, how you FEEL about it. How you FEEL can govern your personal decision, but people all have different feelings. We shouldn't force everyone to have the same feelings. Thats not possible.
Originally Posted by iroc


Feelings have nothing to do with it. Most pro-choicers agree that fetuses are indeed alive, but they cannot have the same rights as a full human until/unless a woman decides to give it that life. For the government to bestow full rights means an already-born woman has to lose her rights. And that goes against all our founding principals.
Originally Posted by RedCatWaves

Exactly. I'm pro choice, although I am anti abortion. Being against abortion is my personal decision. Being pro choice is part of my fight that the government should be allowed to control what I do, or put into, my body. That's going too far.
Lotsawaves, thelio and Corrina777 like this.
Nevertheless, I know not everybody thinks the same as I do. As Spiderlashes pointed out, not everybody has the same point of view. Thats very true. We do not. Therefore it wouldn't be right to force my views about what is 'right' or 'wrong' in the form of laws on other people who don't feel the same. They need to be allowed to make that choice for themselves.

One person can see it as a life, and one person can see it as a fetus, and they have that choice. One person can view it as disposable, and one can view it as murder, and they can have that choice.

It really doesn't matter, legally, how you FEEL about it. How you FEEL can govern your personal decision, but people all have different feelings. We shouldn't force everyone to have the same feelings. Thats not possible.
Originally Posted by iroc
Absolutely true, but only one side in this debate wants to allow individuals to make their own decisions. Nobody is forcing a pregnant woman to have an abortion, but pro-lifers want to force that pregnant woman to carry the fetus/baby to term, using the law to impose their particular viewpoint on all women.
Originally Posted by yossarian

Exactly. Thats why people need to try and remove their personal emotions from this issue.
thelio likes this.
I see them as young human beings and ending their lives as murder. Murder is against the law and I personally, tho rationally and unemotionally, think the same logic should apply.

I don't rationally and unemotionally think ppl should get to decide to murder other humans at any other time during the life process, and I don't think they should in this situation either.
The New Black likes this.
3b (with 3c tendencies) on modified CG

I see them as young human beings and ending their lives as murder. Murder is against the law and I personally, tho rationally and unemotionally, think the same logic should apply.

I don't rationally and unemotionally think ppl should get to decide to murder other humans at any other time during the life process, and I don't think they should in this situation either.
Originally Posted by spiderlashes5000

So...a woman whose life is at risk should be forced to continue a pregnancy she doesn't want? That life trumps hers?
I see them as young human beings and ending their lives as murder. Murder is against the law and I personally, tho rationally and unemotionally, think the same logic should apply.

I don't rationally and unemotionally think ppl should get to decide to murder other humans at any other time during the life process, and I don't think they should in this situation either.
Originally Posted by spiderlashes5000

So...a woman whose life is at risk should be forced to continue a pregnancy she doesn't want? That life trumps hers?
Originally Posted by RedCatWaves
Whether the woman "wants" the pregnancy or not is totally irrelevent to me and doesn't factor into my thinking...just like not "wanting" a 5 y/o wouldn't be a justifcation for its murder either.

But for practical reasons, I would not oppose aborting a fetus if its continued gestation put its mother's life into imminent medical danger. Similar to a person choosing to save one child over another child in a fire or activating your own oxygen mask before your child's in a plane crash or attempting to separate conjoined twins knowing there is risk one might die. You can't save everyone.

But in the absence of compelling medical reason, no.
The New Black likes this.
3b (with 3c tendencies) on modified CG

So what is their option if they absolutely do not want a child? Was raped? Is addicted to drugs and isnt going to be giving them up during the pregnancy? Is a drug user who is homeless and lives in a car with her sex offender boyfriend? Is 12 and pregnant by her father who has been sneaking into her room and having sex w her since she was 9?

These are very real possibilities.
I see them as young human beings and ending their lives as murder. Murder is against the law and I personally, tho rationally and unemotionally, think the same logic should apply.

I don't rationally and unemotionally think ppl should get to decide to murder other humans at any other time during the life process, and I don't think they should in this situation either.
Originally Posted by spiderlashes5000

So...a woman whose life is at risk should be forced to continue a pregnancy she doesn't want? That life trumps hers?
Originally Posted by RedCatWaves
Whether the woman "wants" the pregnancy or not is totally irrelevent to me and doesn't factor into my thinking...just like not "wanting" a 5 y/o wouldn't be a justifcation for its murder either.

But for practical reasons, I would not oppose aborting a fetus if its continued gestation put its mother's life into imminent medical danger. Similar to a person choosing to save one child over another child in a fire or activating your own oxygen mask before your child's in a plane crash or attempting to separate conjoined twins knowing there is risk one might die. You can't save everyone.

But in the absence of compelling medical reason, no.
Originally Posted by spiderlashes5000
ALL pregnancies risk a woman's life over and above life's everyday risks. Every.Single.Pregnancy. Who is to decide what risk is acceptable? We routinely terminate ectopic pregnancies, even though it is possible for a live birth to happen as a result of ectopic. Yet that risk is lower than the overal risk of death from other complications of pregnancy. I'd rather let women decide if they want to accept the risk for a child they want...or not.
So what is their option if they absolutely do not want a child? Was raped? Is addicted to drugs and isnt going to be giving them up during the pregnancy? Is a drug user who is homeless and lives in a car with her sex offender boyfriend? Is 12 and pregnant by her father who has been sneaking into her room and having sex w her since she was 9?

These are very real possibilities.
Originally Posted by iroc
Woman up and raise your baby properly and to the best of your ability. The end.

Don't try to inflame and conflate the issue by dragging in a 9 y/o and her rapist father. That is a cheap shot. Are you implying that by aborting the 12 y/o's fetus, her life will suddenly improve and her father will stop raping her and she will lose all memories of the abuse and go on to lead a wonderful life? In that scenario, the baby is the least of her worries and probably the only thing that will get her away from her father.

I can't say what women who allow their husbands to rape their daughters would do, but if God forbid my 12 y/o got pregnant, I would want her to have ithe baby and I would help her raise it.

I know I'm going to lose 99.9% of you here but I feel God works things out for good, even terrible things, for those who love him and are called to his purpose.

That's just how I feel. You can concoct all these horrible, tear-jerking, emotionally wrenching scenarios and post them here but my views won't change. Killing a fetus just bc you can is morally wrong IMO. Not saying you are a terrible person if you had an abortion or that it's some unforgivable thing (if that is what general you feels I'm saying). And not saying I would wish pregnancy on any 12 y/o or that I take incest lightly or anything. But I just can't cosign onto all this abortion-choice stuff no matter how many ppl disagree w/ me or say my views are anti-feminist or whatever. Those little lima beans floating around in my uterus way back when are the same exact ppl who i'm raising now and cooking meals for and driving to sporting events, etc. IMO, God gave them to me to raise and it's not my right to decide no, thanks, I have other plans.

Sorry to be a troll or step out of line here LOL but that's just how I think.
3b (with 3c tendencies) on modified CG


Last edited by spiderlashes5000; 04-19-2013 at 10:45 AM.
So what is their option if they absolutely do not want a child? Was raped? Is addicted to drugs and isnt going to be giving them up during the pregnancy? Is a drug user who is homeless and lives in a car with her sex offender boyfriend? Is 12 and pregnant by her father who has been sneaking into her room and having sex w her since she was 9?

These are very real possibilities.
Originally Posted by iroc
Woman up and raise your baby properly and to the best of your ability. The end.

Don't try to inflame and conflate the issue by dragging in a 9 y/o and her rapist father. That is a cheap shot. Are you implying that by aborting the 12 y/o's fetus, her life will suddenly improve and her father will stop raping her and she will lose all memories of the abuse and go on to lead a wonderful life? In that scenario, the baby is the least of her worries and probably the only thing that will get her away from her father.

I can't say what women who allow their husbands to rape their daughters would do, but if God forbid my 12 y/o got pregnant, I would want her to have ithe baby and I would help her raise it.

I know I'm going to lose 99.9% of you here but I feel God works things out for good, even terrible things, for those who love him and are called to his purpose.

That's just how I feel. You can concoct all these horrible, tear-jerking, emotionally wrenching scenarios and post them here but my views won't change. Killing a fetus just bc you can is morally wrong IMO. Not saying you are a terrible person if you had an abortion or that it's some unforgivable thing (if that is what general you feels I'm saying). And not saying I would wish pregnancy on any 12 y/o or that I take a incest lightly or anything. But I just can't cosign onto all this abortion-choice stuff no matter how many ppl disagree w/ me or say my views are anti-feminist or whatever. Those little lima beans floating around in my uterus way back when are the same exact ppl who i'm raising now and cooking meals for and driving to sporting events, etc. IMO, God gave them to me to raise and it's not my right to decide no, thanks, I have other plans.

Sorry to be a troll or step out of line here LOL but that's just how I think.
Originally Posted by spiderlashes5000


So...we shouldn't abort ectopic pregnancies then? Those babies were mis-placed by god and we should just trust that he knows best?
I don't see it as 'murder'. Thats a little intense. It is not a born, living, in the world life, human - so murder, no. But I do see it as a potential life in its early starting out point. I think its wrong to dispose of the new potential life, just as I think its wrong to pull a sapling out of the ground, or dig up sprouted bulbs in a garden. I respect that its a potential life. *Obviously a weak analogy since I'm using plants, not humans.

Nevertheless, I know not everybody thinks the same as I do. As Spiderlashes pointed out, not everybody has the same point of view. Thats very true. We do not. Therefore it wouldn't be right to force my views about what is 'right' or 'wrong' in the form of laws on other people who don't feel the same. They need to be allowed to make that choice for themselves.

One person can see it as a life, and one person can see it as a fetus, and they have that choice. One person can view it as disposable, and one can view it as murder, and they can have that choice.

It really doesn't matter, legally, how you FEEL about it. How you FEEL can govern your personal decision, but people all have different feelings. We shouldn't force everyone to have the same feelings. Thats not possible.
Originally Posted by iroc


Feelings have nothing to do with it. Most pro-choicers agree that fetuses are indeed alive, but they cannot have the same rights as a full human until/unless a woman decides to give it that life. For the government to bestow full rights means an already-born woman has to lose her rights. And that goes against all our founding principals.
Originally Posted by RedCatWaves
The bolded is why I'm pro-choice.
I don't know how we (society) would be able to preserve the rights of a embryo/fetus without taking away rights from the woman.
Giving full rights to an 8 week embryo just doesn't make sense in my mind.

What if you have a miscarriage? What would that mean in terms of the law?
3c/4a
^ your body goes to jail for murder but your brain doesn't.
So what is their option if they absolutely do not want a child? Was raped? Is addicted to drugs and isnt going to be giving them up during the pregnancy? Is a drug user who is homeless and lives in a car with her sex offender boyfriend? Is 12 and pregnant by her father who has been sneaking into her room and having sex w her since she was 9?

These are very real possibilities.
Originally Posted by iroc
Woman up and raise your baby properly and to the best of your ability. The end.

Don't try to inflame and conflate the issue by dragging in a 9 y/o and her rapist father. That is a cheap shot. Are you implying that by aborting the 12 y/o's fetus, her life will suddenly improve and her father will stop raping her and she will lose all memories of the abuse and go on to lead a wonderful life? In that scenario, the baby is the least of her worries and probably the only thing that will get her away from her father.

I can't say what women who allow their husbands to rape their daughters would do, but if God forbid my 12 y/o got pregnant, I would want her to have ithe baby and I would help her raise it.

I know I'm going to lose 99.9% of you here but I feel God works things out for good, even terrible things, for those who love him and are called to his purpose.

That's just how I feel. You can concoct all these horrible, tear-jerking, emotionally wrenching scenarios and post them here but my views won't change. Killing a fetus just bc you can is morally wrong IMO. Not saying you are a terrible person if you had an abortion or that it's some unforgivable thing (if that is what general you feels I'm saying). And not saying I would wish pregnancy on any 12 y/o or that I take a incest lightly or anything. But I just can't cosign onto all this abortion-choice stuff no matter how many ppl disagree w/ me or say my views are anti-feminist or whatever. Those little lima beans floating around in my uterus way back when are the same exact ppl who i'm raising now and cooking meals for and driving to sporting events, etc. IMO, God gave them to me to raise and it's not my right to decide no, thanks, I have other plans.

Sorry to be a troll or step out of line here LOL but that's just how I think.
Originally Posted by spiderlashes5000


So...we shouldn't abort ectopic pregnancies then? Those babies were mis-placed by god and we should just trust that he knows best?
Originally Posted by RedCatWaves
We? You can do what you want. I am stating my POV. And once again, I personally would not oppose abortion in the case of clear and imminent medical danger to the mother.

But ultimately your decision is btwn you and God...or just you or btwn you and whomever else you consult on important decisions. Abort away, under any and every circumstance, if that's what you want to do.
Po and The New Black like this.
3b (with 3c tendencies) on modified CG


Last edited by spiderlashes5000; 04-19-2013 at 10:50 AM.
Let me say, even as a pro-choice person (who has had an unwanted pregnancy, scheduled an abortion, and ended up having a miscarriage, and was relieved when I did), I would love for there to be a day when we didn't have abortion.

I don't think it's a good spiritual practice. I'm not talking about religion, per se. Similarly to how I feel about the way we treat animals, or our engagement in war, or capital punishment, or using corporal punishment, I think that the more we evolve, those things fall out of practice or we find ways to solve those problems more humanely.
3c/4a

Last edited by Po; 04-19-2013 at 11:18 AM.
Let me say, even as a pro-choice person (who has had an unwanted pregnancy, scheduled an abortion, and ended up having a miscarriage, and was relieved when I did), I would love for there to be a day when we didn't have abortion.

I don't think it's a good spiritual practice. I'm not talking about religion, per se. Similarly, to how I feel about the way we treat animals, or our engagement in war, or capital punishment, or using corporal punishment, I think that the more we evolve, those things fall out of practice or we find ways to solve those problems more humanely.
Originally Posted by Po
Well stated.
No MAS.

I am the new Black.

"Hope the Mail are saving space tomorrow for Samantha Brick's reaction piece on the reactions to her piece about the reactions to her piece." ~ Tweet reposted by Rou.

http://www.youtube.com/user/Kimshi4242

http://www.tumblr.com/blog/kimshi4242
So what is their option if they absolutely do not want a child? Was raped? Is addicted to drugs and isnt going to be giving them up during the pregnancy? Is a drug user who is homeless and lives in a car with her sex offender boyfriend? Is 12 and pregnant by her father who has been sneaking into her room and having sex w her since she was 9?

These are very real possibilities.
Originally Posted by iroc
Woman up and raise your baby properly and to the best of your ability. The end.

Don't try to inflame and conflate the issue by dragging in a 9 y/o and her rapist father. That is a cheap shot. Are you implying that by aborting the 12 y/o's fetus, her life will suddenly improve and her father will stop raping her and she will lose all memories of the abuse and go on to lead a wonderful life? In that scenario, the baby is the least of her worries and probably the only thing that will get her away from her father.

I can't say what women who allow their husbands to rape their daughters would do, but if God forbid my 12 y/o got pregnant, I would want her to have ithe baby and I would help her raise it.

I know I'm going to lose 99.9% of you here but I feel God works things out for good, even terrible things, for those who love him and are called to his purpose.

That's just how I feel. You can concoct all these horrible, tear-jerking, emotionally wrenching scenarios and post them here but my views won't change. Killing a fetus just bc you can is morally wrong IMO. Not saying you are a terrible person if you had an abortion or that it's some unforgivable thing (if that is what general you feels I'm saying). And not saying I would wish pregnancy on any 12 y/o or that I take incest lightly or anything. But I just can't cosign onto all this abortion-choice stuff no matter how many ppl disagree w/ me or say my views are anti-feminist or whatever. Those little lima beans floating around in my uterus way back when are the same exact ppl who i'm raising now and cooking meals for and driving to sporting events, etc. IMO, God gave them to me to raise and it's not my right to decide no, thanks, I have other plans.

Sorry to be a troll or step out of line here LOL but that's just how I think.
Originally Posted by spiderlashes5000

In response to your first line especially - thats not going to happen. You are basing your stance of anti abortion on the platform that you expect people to 'do the right thing'. Thats not going to happen. Unfortunately having a baby is not going to make someone be a good mom, take care of their child, stop using drugs, etc.

There ARE people who ignore the sexual abuse of their children, who don't feed their kids bc they're too busy doing drugs, who sell their children into sex slavery - I've known some of these people. Its not inflammatory, its real. And abortion is legal. How many would there be if it were illegal?
scrills likes this.
So what is their option if they absolutely do not want a child? Was raped? Is addicted to drugs and isnt going to be giving them up during the pregnancy? Is a drug user who is homeless and lives in a car with her sex offender boyfriend? Is 12 and pregnant by her father who has been sneaking into her room and having sex w her since she was 9?

These are very real possibilities.
Originally Posted by iroc
Woman up and raise your baby properly and to the best of your ability. The end.

Don't try to inflame and conflate the issue by dragging in a 9 y/o and her rapist father. That is a cheap shot. Are you implying that by aborting the 12 y/o's fetus, her life will suddenly improve and her father will stop raping her and she will lose all memories of the abuse and go on to lead a wonderful life? In that scenario, the baby is the least of her worries and probably the only thing that will get her away from her father.

I can't say what women who allow their husbands to rape their daughters would do, but if God forbid my 12 y/o got pregnant, I would want her to have ithe baby and I would help her raise it.

I know I'm going to lose 99.9% of you here but I feel God works things out for good, even terrible things, for those who love him and are called to his purpose.

That's just how I feel. You can concoct all these horrible, tear-jerking, emotionally wrenching scenarios and post them here but my views won't change. Killing a fetus just bc you can is morally wrong IMO. Not saying you are a terrible person if you had an abortion or that it's some unforgivable thing (if that is what general you feels I'm saying). And not saying I would wish pregnancy on any 12 y/o or that I take incest lightly or anything. But I just can't cosign onto all this abortion-choice stuff no matter how many ppl disagree w/ me or say my views are anti-feminist or whatever. Those little lima beans floating around in my uterus way back when are the same exact ppl who i'm raising now and cooking meals for and driving to sporting events, etc. IMO, God gave them to me to raise and it's not my right to decide no, thanks, I have other plans.

Sorry to be a troll or step out of line here LOL but that's just how I think.
Originally Posted by spiderlashes5000

In response to your first line especially - thats not going to happen. You are basing your stance of anti abortion on the platform that you expect people to 'do the right thing'. Thats not going to happen. Unfortunately having a baby is not going to make someone be a good mom, take care of their child, stop using drugs, etc.

There ARE people who ignore the sexual abuse of their children, who don't feed their kids bc they're too busy doing drugs, who sell their children into sex slavery - I've known some of these people. Its not inflammatory, its real. And abortion is legal. How many would there be if it were illegal?
Originally Posted by iroc
Expecting people to "do the right thing" definitely goes for both sides of the camp. I was working with a homeless young woman who was pregnant with twins and had 3 small children. She had zero job skills, never had a job in her life, grew up in foster care, and had little to no family. Her parenting skills were also sub par. My first reaction was "Why the heck are you still pregnant????" I had to check myself. I still feel she should have done something (abortion if she believed in that or adoption), but I've heard people judge women for NOT having an abortion. I kinda did.
3c/4a

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