Bradley Manning plans to live as a woman named Chelsea

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Of course some people genetically and biologically don't fit into the male/female binary. Some people are born with something other than XX or XY, or their genitals don't match their chromosomes.

You also might want to look at the definitions of sex vs gender identity
Originally Posted by geeky
htt Intersex: MedlinePlus Medical Encyclopedia

Did this person have any of those? Did they have any intersexual disorders causing ambiguous genitalia or secondary sexual characteristics that don't match their chromosomes? Or extra chromosomes? I'm going to guess not.
Originally Posted by Ashleynicol
I was just responding to your statement of "genetically and biologically you are what you are." Because sometimes what you are does not fit neatly into box A or box B.
I have no idea what chromosomes Manning has, or what hormonal exposure she had in utero. It doesn't really matter to me.
I guess i just don't understand why it's so hard for people to take someone's word about who they are.
To Trenell, MizKerri and geeky:
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What you posted is indeed what most people are taught in school. However, it's only a very basic rule of thumb that's highly simplified to the point of inaccuracy. Scientists have long understood that there is way, way, waaay more to sex/gender than XX or XY, or what someone's genitals look like. For example, fetal exposure to sex hormones is known to play a major role in sexual development, and current research suggests that it plays a role in whether people are trans*. As with most genetic traits, multiple chromosomes are involved in sexual development, along with epigenetic factors (conditions that affect DNA expression).

Many, many people have intersex genitalia, or three or more sex chromosomes. Some people are XY but develop as female because they're insensitive to male hormones. So are these people "wrong," or is the simplified XX/XY definition wrong?

Furthermore, countless societies throughout the world have (or had) three or more genders. Having two genders is no less arbitrary than having three or four. The concept of an XX/XY sexual dichotomy only sounds natural to us because it happens to match our culture's gender binary.

And, as I've shown, people who are experts in this subject consider transgender to be a real thing, and medical transitioning to be a medical need.
Originally Posted by Eilonwy


The point of the x and y chromosome is to signal the body to make hormones at the same time to differentiate the sex organs and secondary sex characteristics so that reproduction can occur and the species survives. Mistakes happen and that's how we get abnormalities. Some mistakes are so bad the fetus doesn't survive and a miscarriage happens. Ever heard of an ancephalic baby? Born without a brain? No they don't survive... at least not very long.

The ones that do survive like trisomy 21 and downs syndrome do have disabilities Its the same with many medical disorders. You can die from adrenal and thyroid disorders if not treated.


Someone without the biological disorder, with normal chromosomes, normal sex organs, and normal secondary characteristics... they have a psychiatric problem just as does someone with bipolar or schizophrenia. And they do need therapy and medication.

However some argue that the treatment for this gender identity disorder is surgery and hormone therapy to change the outward appearance. This does not give a male ovaries and the capability to get pregnant. And maybe its an effective treatment. But let me ask this.... if a person says they have always known they were only supposed to have one arm and will never feel right with two arms do we cut off their arm for them? I mean where do we draw the line? A true sociopath doesn't have emotions... so do we just let them murder people so they feel better? Is that an effective treatment? Like letting a mass murderer plead insanity... well of course youd have to be insane to kill a bunch of innocent people for no reason.

I get that there is a difference here. A normal person with a gender identity problem isn't hurting anyone, but this guy risked the lives of people serving our country and he wants us to pay for him to have a sex change to help him feel better? Im sorry but no. Yes do surgery to take an appendix out if needed. Give antidepressants if needed or whatever psych meds. Treat diabetes and thyroid disorders, treat them for their hepatitis and HIV but no we do not need to pay for a prisoner to have a sex change.



And like I said I am not trying to judge anyone who chooses to idetify with a different gender. Like I said it is there choice, and maybe has some to do with how they were born. If they aren't hurting anyone then fine let them be.


Oh and the incidence of true intersex conditions is less than 0.02 percent

Last edited by Ashleynicol; 08-24-2013 at 06:53 PM.
The point of the x and y chromosome is to signal the body to make hormones at the same time to differentiate the sex organs and secondary sex characteristics so that reproduction can occur and the species survives.
Originally Posted by Ashleynicol
Yes, the purpose of those chromosomes is to contribute to reproductive roles, of which our species has two. However, that's not the same as gender or sex. Gender and sex are both social categories, not objective observations. You can objectively describe someone's chromosomes or sex organs. But labeling these structures as male or female is merely cultural.

Someone without the biological disorder, with normal chromosomes, normal sex organs, and normal secondary characteristics... they have a psychiatric problem just as does someone with bipolar or schizophrenia.
Originally Posted by Ashleynicol
But being transgender is not a psychiatric problem. It's considered a biological variation in sexual characteristics, just like being intersex. Scientists know that sex chromosomes, sex organs, and secondary sex characteristics tell only part of the story. We still have an incomplete picture of how sex is determined by the body, and the fact that some people are transgender shows we have a long way to go.

However some argue that the treatment for this gender identity disorder is surgery and hormone therapy to change the outward appearance.
Originally Posted by Ashleynicol
This isn't "some argue," it's "experts agree." As I've repeatedly pointed out, experts on this subject agree that hormone therapy and/or gender confirmation surgery are medically necessary for many trans* people. There's simply no alternative treatment.
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So who decides someone is transgender? If it has nothing to do with the chromosomes or secondary sexual chacteristics, then what is the basis for this medical diagnosis?


For example a person who is bipolar or schizophrenic... this is a psychiatric disorder... but there is a strong genetic link so there is definitely a biological basis that causes it, not necessarily environment. A schitzophrenic or bipolar person doesn't choose to be so. So I'm not saying that there is not a biological link regarding a "transgender" person. But they are still psychiatric illnesses.

"Gender identity disorder*(GID), also known as gender dysphoria, is a formal diagnosis used bypsychologists*and*physicians*to describe people who experience significant*dysphoria*(discontent) with the*sex*they were*assigned at birth*and/or thegender roles*associated with that sex. Affected individuals are commonly referred to as*transsexual or*transgender."



And male and female are not just human characteristics. They are characteristics of every animal in nature that reproduces using sexual reproduction.

Last edited by Ashleynicol; 08-24-2013 at 09:17 PM.
And please keep in mind I am not trying to minimize any psychiatric disorders. My brother who has a different father than me, has a manic disorder with psychotic affect or something like that. He is extremely intelligent and kind. But he had his first episode when he was 18 and it was scary. He wasnt dangerous but he couldve been hurt himself. He didnt sleep for weeks and was having acute psychosis. I remember taking him to the hospital and praying that he was on drugs. I mean im glad he wasnt on drugs but It broke my heart to realize this is a lifetime diagnosis. when he takes his medications and is stable he is great. But if the meds get messed up or he decides not to take them he may be ok for a while but will eventually wind up acutely manic. And his psychosis presents with things like delusions and paranoia.

So yeah I realize the significance of treating psychiatric illnesses. But my little brother is not a criminal. He doesn't break the law and hurt people. When he starts getting manic he gives away all his money and tries to help everyone. He may wind up broke and homeless sitting on the side of the road talking to God but he hasn't hurt anyone.
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Like letting a mass murderer plead insanity... well of course youd have to be insane to kill a bunch of innocent people for no reason.
Originally Posted by Ashleynicol
The insanity defense only applies to people who tried to act morally in response to what their delusions told them was happening. For example, the guy in Canada who decapitated someone on the bus believed he was saving the world by killing Satan. When he realized what he'd done, he was utterly devastated and begged to be killed. Someone like that really doesn't deserve to be punished. What they need is to stay in a mental hospital, which is what happens to people found not guilty by reason of insanity.
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So who decides someone is transgender? If it has nothing to do with the chromosomes or secondary sexual chacteristics, then what is the basis for this medical diagnosis?
Originally Posted by Ashleynicol
This is the basic protocol used to determine whether someone has gender dysphoria (that is, distress related to being transgender). It's excerpted from WPATH's Standards of Care, pp. 23-24.

Mental health professionals assess clients' gender dysphoria in the context of an evaluation of their psychosocial adjustment (Bocktin et al., 2006; Lev, 2004, 2009). The evaluation includes, at a minimum, assessment of gender identity and gender dysphoria, history and development of gender dysphoric feelings, the impact of stigma attached to gender nonconformity on mental health, and the availability of support from family, friends, and peers (for example, in person or online contact with other transsexual, transgender, or gender nonconforming individuals or groups). The evaluation may result in no diagnosis, in a formal diagnosis related to gender dysphoria, and/or in other diagnoses that describe aspects of the client's health and psychosocial adjustment. The role of mental health professionals includes making reasonably sure that gender dysphoria is not secondary to or better accounted for by other diagnoses.

So I'm not saying that there is not a biological link regarding a "transgender" person. But they are still psychiatric illnesses.

"Gender identity disorder*(GID), also known as gender dysphoria, is a formal diagnosis used bypsychologists*and*physicians*to describe people who experience significant*dysphoria*(discontent) with the*sex*they were*assigned at birth*and/or thegender roles*associated with that sex. Affected individuals are commonly referred to as*transsexual or*transgender."
Originally Posted by Ashleynicol
I'm not sure what you're quoting, but it's inaccurate and, at best, outdated.

This is from the APA's Gender Dysphoria Fact Sheet, which explains the diagnosis of "gender dysphoria" in the DSM-5: It is important to note that gender nonconformity is not in itself a mental disorder. The critical element of gender dysphoria is the presence of clinically significant stress associated with the condition.

And male and female are not just human characteristics. They are characteristics of every animal in nature that reproduces using sexual reproduction.
Originally Posted by Ashleynicol
They are reproductive roles, but as stated before those roles are neither sex nor gender. Classifying certain characteristics as male, female, or other sexes is a matter of culture and has varied greatly over time and from one society to the next.

Last edited by Eilonwy; 08-24-2013 at 11:24 PM.
So much misgendering of Manning going on. Thank you Eilonwy and geeky for saying something.

Here's a good article on why XY does not mean "technically male": Skepchick | Bilaterally Gynandromorphic Chickens, and Why I’m Not “Scientifically” Male
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And please keep in mind I am not trying to minimize any psychiatric disorders.
Originally Posted by Ashleynicol
You know, so far I've only been writing about things we disagree on. But aside from the topic of transgender, I mostly agree with what you've said. I really appreciate the experiences you've shared, and I wish you and your family well
curlypearl likes this.
What happens to someone who has gender identity disorder if he or she is not treated? Why is this surgery and/or hormone treatment considered a medical necessity?

I am unhappy that prisoners get free medical treatment that people who have not committed any crime cannot afford. Where is the line drawn? I would much rather pay for someone who has committed no crime to get any and all kinds of medical treatment than have my taxes go toward paying for medical treatment for prisoners unless it is absolutely necessary.

I have no issue whatsoever with someone opting for trans gender surgery if he or she can pay for it. Also, I deeply want a more equitable health care system in this country.
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And please keep in mind I am not trying to minimize any psychiatric disorders.
Originally Posted by Ashleynicol
You know, so far I've only been writing about things we disagree on. But aside from the topic of transgender, I mostly agree with what you've said. I really appreciate the experiences you've shared, and I wish you and your family well
Originally Posted by Eilonwy
Thank you, I just didnt want people to think I was being an insensitive jerk in regards to mental illness.






What happens to someone who has gender identity disorder if he or she is not treated? Why is this surgery and/or hormone treatment considered a medical necessity?

I am unhappy that prisoners get free medical treatment that people who have not committed any crime cannot afford. Where is the line drawn? I would much rather pay for someone who has committed no crime to get any and all kinds of medical treatment than have my taxes go toward paying for medical treatment for prisoners unless it is absolutely necessary.

I have no issue whatsoever with someone opting for trans gender surgery if he or she can pay for it. Also, I deeply want a more equitable health care system in this country.
Originally Posted by curlypearl
It really is sad that prisoners get free healthcare when the general population doesn't. But then again as a human being they are being locked away from society and punished for their crimes but they should still be treated like humanely and that includes meeting their basic healthcare needs. This to me includes what services would be provided in an emergency room.

If you come into an emergency room you can not be turned away based on ability to pay. So if your blood pressure is too high they will give you medicine to make it better, if you are having a heart attack they will take you to the cath lab. If you need surgery for something life threatening like an intestinal perforation or lacerated spleen, they will send you to the operating room. If you need a blood transfusion you will get that, if you cut your self they will sew it up so you don't bleed to death. If you have an infection you get antibiotics so you don't become septic. If you have a seizure they will treat that and try to figure out the cause. If your dehydrated you get IV fluids, if your electrolytes are out of balance they will try to fix that, if your diabetic and your blood sugar is too high and making you sick they will treat that, if you stop breathing they will put you on a ventilator, and if you die they will preform cpr and advanced life support.

If you go into the ER with acute psychosis they will treat that too. They will give antipsychotics and admit you or transfer to a psych hospital, if you are in drug or alcohol withdrawals they will treat that too.

Heck, if your out of blood pressure or diabetes medications they will give you a prescription for a small supply till you can get to the doctor or a clinic.

IF YOU GO INTO THE ER and ask for hormones or surgery to change your gender.... its not gonna happen.

See the difference?

I really wish there were affordable healthcare for everyone but then I see a lot of abuse of the system too. People with expensive cars, clothes, and accessories who claim they don't have enough money to buy an insurance policy? Yet you see the gold jewelry they wear and pack of cigarettes in their designer purse. Where are their priorities? They apply for assistance and dont claim the income of their live in significant other and complain about not being able to afford insurance, yet they work only part time jobs because if they worked full time they wouldnt *qualify* for assistance.

This is not everyone and I know there are people who legitimately can not afford despite working full time jobs. I wish there were a better system and then maybe we wouldn't have so many people that abused it?
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Strongly agree with what Ashleynicol wrote.
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What happens to someone who has gender identity disorder if he or she is not treated? Why is this surgery and/or hormone treatment considered a medical necessity?
Originally Posted by curlypearl
For people who need to transition that way, being unable to is extremely detrimental to their mental health and ability to function. I know how much you care about people, and the stories out there would absolutely break your heart -- just as they break mine. And the only real way to treat these issues is to remove their cause.

I am unhappy that prisoners get free medical treatment that people who have not committed any crime cannot afford.
Originally Posted by curlypearl
But which is really the problem: that prisoners have access to healthcare, or that millions of people don't? I'm very, very glad that prisoners have their medical treatment subsidized by taxes. And I'll be even happier when all of us do!

Plus, paying for prisoners' healthcare isn't taking away money from everyone else's healthcare. The amount we each pay for that is miniscule, and cutting their medical bills would just send the tax money elsewhere. It's not like the government would say, "Oh, looks like we have this extra money. I guess we have to create a national healthcare program to spend it on!"
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Last edited by Eilonwy; 08-25-2013 at 09:03 PM.
Eilonwy, You appeal to the best in people and make such excellent arguments. I wish you were running for office!

Take care - thanks for your post.
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Eilonwy, You appeal to the best in people and make such excellent arguments. I wish you were running for office!

Take care - thanks for your post.
Originally Posted by curlypearl
CP, that's so sweet of you. It really means a lot to me.

You take care too!
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I'm not against sex changes, gay/lesbianism, or just whatever you wanna do.

But I do see how tax payers don't want to pay for this. I mean, I'm a law abiding citizen for the most part with chronic pain and I have to pay for my own health care. Treatments, medication, and if it comes to worst therapy.

This person is a NATIONAL CRIMINAL and wants that same nation to pay for their sex change.

I don't see that happening peacefully.
FroZen
If he were hearing impaired, should he get new digital hearing aids or the ones that have worked for years? Should his toothpaste be generic or Colgate top of the line? If he starts to bald, should he get OTC Rogaine or the prescription stuff my dermatologist just gave me? Contact lens or glasses?

Where is the line drawn?
But if the options are to give her antidepressants or hormones, why are antidepressants OK and hormones not acceptable?

Especially if one finds that the hormones are more effective in improving an individual's mental health because they treat the root cause, not the symptoms.


As far as giving prisoners healthcare, both mental and physical, I think it is an extremely short-sighted position to say "I don't want to pay for it". Most people in prison are not lifers, what happens to them after they come out? Who is going to pay for their healthcare later if it gets out of control due to not being addressed over the course of their sentence? If someone suffers from bipolar disorder or schizophrenia, should we treat them in prison and release a relatively stable individual or shoudl we say "Nah" and let them deteriorate and then release an out-of control mentally ill person and let them fend for themselves? How about care being necessary just to maintain the health and safety of other prisoners and corrections officers? (I am not talking about gender identity now, just general mental health and the "I don't wanna pay" attitude)

I agree the real crime here is not that prisoners receive these services but that a lot of people on the outside can't. But prisoners should receive them not just because it is the humane and kind thing to do, but because it is more beneficial to society in the long term.
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To Trenell, MizKerri and geeky:
I pray none of you ever has to live in a communist state.

Geeky is my hero. She's the true badass. The badass who doesn't even need to be a badass. There aren't enough O's in cool to describe her.

Last edited by geeky; 08-26-2013 at 06:44 AM.
Personally, I don't care if someone opts for gender reassignment treatments or if tax payers have to pay for inmates' needed medical care. I am just appalled by this person's nerve; to commit treason on the US while holding a top military security clearance and accepting a US military paycheck. Then wants leniency on the grounds of...anything. Kick rocks.
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Last edited by spiderlashes5000; 08-26-2013 at 12:53 PM.
Personally, I don't care if someone opts for gender reassignment treatments or if tax payers have to pay for inmates' needed medical care. I am just appalled by this person's nerve; to commit treason on the US while holding a top military security clearance and accepting a US military paycheck. Then wants leniency on the grounds...anything. Kick rocks.
Originally Posted by spiderlashes5000
Who else do you expect would do something like that?

There were plenty of double agents during the cold war on all sides (plus other conflicts) who believed their own country was doing wrong and thought the other side was some sort of utopia.

Plus finding a leniency excuse is what your lawyer is expected to do. Judges aren't stupid.

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