Say It. I Dare You.

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One of my furbabies went to get a tooth removed today! I feel so bad, but I'm glad she won't be in pain from it anymore!

"And death is at your doorstep
And it will steal your innocence
But it will not steal your substance
But you are not alone in this"

“My ability to turn good news into anxiety is rivaled only by my ability to turn anxiety into chin acne.” - Tina Fey
No, I'm not saying that. I am saying that formula companies ARE manipulating women on a daily basis into doing what will put money in THEIR pockets and women have the right to be free of that manipulation as much as possible.

I'm really not trying to defend formula companies here, but if you want to punish formula companies for marketing you're throwing the baby out with the bath water. Many women can't or don't want to breastfeed for a variety reasons. That means they need formula. What now?

I'm not saying formula shouldn't be SOLD, but it doesn't need to be marketed so constantly and aggresively. Women don't need to be getting samples from their doctors when they are still pregnant. Women who make an informed choice not to breastfeed or who can't will still be able to buy it on the shelf whether or not it is marketed.


The mere presence of formula doesn't necessarily encourage women to stop nursing - there are a number of factors for that - but the CONSTANT presence of formula "normalizes" it at the expense of breastfeeding.

Why is normalizing bad? It's a way too feed babies. You're demonizing formula and attaching a moral value to breastfeeding that I find hugely problematic.

Normalizing is bad because anything else by default becomes weird, a problem, not accepted, not attractive. If it were just "a way to feed babies" then we would have the same attitudes to breastfeeding as to formula - that they are different ways to achieve the nourishing of a baby. Normalizing formula means it is seen as THE default way to feed a baby and breastfeeding is weird or hippie or lots of extra work. I'm not attaching a MORAL value to breastfeeding, just a HEALTH value, which to me is not debatable. Nor am I demonizing formula - I just don't think it should be treated as an unquestioned good. In certain circumstances, it is an appropriate and good choice, but it is not the gold standard in infant feeding.

"Choice" is something middle class / better off women love to talk about, but the fact is, a lot of women do not really have a "choice." The free formula samples and formula marketing and attitudes of others, etc. etc. etc. influence that "choice" (and this begins way before a woman is pregnant or has a newborn.) It's funny that people rarely have a problem with that, but they do with pro-breastfeeding advocacy to counter the constant formula messages.

It's funny you mention middle class women, since this whole thing is run by that very group--well-off women who romanticize history and nature and poverty because they've grown up in a privileged society and have zero awareness of anything else. I'm surprised that you, Amneris, don't see that, since I consider you extremely aware. And people have a problem with many breast-feeding advocates because they seem to rely on condescension (women who formula feed are't really making a choice, they're being manipulated? REALLY?!), shame, and coercion to force women to make the same parenting decisions they do.

I absolutely do see that, which is why I think other communities need to have access to the same messages and support, which I agree that some lactivists do a terrible job in providing.

I don't see anything wrong with saying that there is SOME manipulation by formula companies, if you look at their advertising campaigns. Of course not every woman who formula feeds is being manipulated - no one is saying that and everything is not absolute. Women readily accept that advertising is manipulative and shaming about their body image, so why is it any different for formula? The whole point of advertising is to manipulate and control the choices people make, so why would this one product be any different?


Formula availability works in conjunction with other difficulties such as breastfeeding struggles, family disapproval, the need to work, past sexual abuse, etc. etc. etc. It is a combination.

Yes, so why is keeping formula out of women's hands seen as such an important step when it's clearly the least of it?

I wouldn't say it's the least of it, but it is important that formula not be ubiquitous in a hospital, where some of those factors will not have kicked in yet. People know where to get it if they need it and if they are THAT set on it, they can bring it to the hospital, but I don't see the need for the hospital to offer it in MOST cases.

You are right about that. There's been success in getting more women to start, but the rates of continuing even to 3 or 6 months do drop off. I am not saying that there is one solution - clearly there has to be family and community support as well, but at least getting the idea out there that breastfeeding is important and formula is not the norm or assumed is a start to changing that.

That idea has been out there for years. Women still formula feed. Because in most cases, that's exactly what they want to do. And all the "Beast is best" lectures aren't going to change their minds.

LOL at the typo ("beast is best!")

I don't really understand this rhetoric against lactivists - really, we have to go there with "shame" and "loud?" Is the formula industry not also loud and also lying? Why is all the anger against those who are trying to help women and babies and not those who are lining their own pockets?

"Help women and babies"? I don't buy it. And really, it's not that serious.

And until I hear of formula companies pushing for laws to limit access to lactation consultants and breast pumps in hospitals, I'm going to say that the lactivists are the ones that are out of line on this.

Formula companies don't have to do that because they use such terrible tactics in their advertising and marketing and they start work on women way before they get to hospital to deliver. They have actually brought political pressure to cancel or water down ads promoting breastfeeding, for example - where's the outrage on that?

CUT SOME TEXT....

There are a number of advantages that are NOT just small, even in developed countries. That's a myth the formula industry promotes that formula is "just as good" or "almost as good." There are advantages to the mother's health as well as the baby's that formula cannot give. There is an average 8-12 point impact on the baby's IQ which is significant.

No, it's not a myth promoted by formula companies. Like I said the benefits are real but there not as huge as all the rhetoric implies.

Interestingly, middle class / college-educated and/or white women are breastfeeding far more than poor, less educated and/or minority women, for a variety of reasons as discussed above. So this widens the gap further between these women. It is imperative that less advantaged women have every opportunity to breastfeed as much as they can and the support to do so.

I'm shocked that you think that breastfeeding is the make-or-break factor. Forget about education and the issues of violence in disadvantaged areas, it's the lack of breastmilk that really set people back!

Um, I never said it's a make-or-break factor, but it's something that in many cases a woman can control that can help to lessen the gap, which of course is caused by all kinds of factors she may not be able to control. It also saves money for the family which can further help to lessen gaps.

I do agree with you that it's not about condescending to women and telling them what to do, but it's about finding out what the obstacles and issues are and addressing them. But we're so slow to hold formula companies accountable for any of it.

Is it an issue of punishing formula companies or helping women?

One would lead to the other.

Also, it's funny that on issues like birth control, there is generally no problem with educators aggressively promoting it (and I am not against this by any means.) Few people would argue that if a woman wants to be a teenage parent or have 10 kids that that is "her choice" and everyone else should butt out - many women feel that it is important that all women be aware that they can plan their families and that it is not good when women fail to do so. But on breastfeeding suddenly people get defensive and take it personally. I think that shows how much control formula companies really have.


This analogy is hugely flawed. How can people not take it personally when LAWS are being written in an attempt to shame them into breast feeding? Do you really not see why that's a problem?
Originally Posted by legends
Well, I guess I don't see it as a law that is trying to shame anyone into doing anything - it's a law trying to lessen the negative influence of an industry that uses horrible tactics. I agree with you that the way it is being executed may not be the best way, but I applaud the idea.
Get used to me. Black, confident, cocky; my name, not yours; my religion, not yours; my goals, my own; get used to me. -Muhammad Ali











I just saw a woman step out in a bikini onto her roof to lie under the sun. Oh, there's two of them.

#Things that I don't understand
Does anyone here loition their ENTIRE body? I mean tummy, back, everything?
Originally Posted by kayb
I do!
Originally Posted by Amneris
Me too! I hate being dry!!!


Sent from my iPhone - blame autocorrect for everything strange
We are a society of lazy people and take the easiest route. Raising children takes too much effort, spending time with your children takes too much effort, and breastfeeding takes way too much effort. Who would want to even want to take the time to learn or try when formula is so much easier and handed to you in the hospital? Especially when we probably scheduled our c section so we didn't have to wait and go through labor.

Exactly.

I'm not buying into the 'everybodys equal' so that we, God forbid, don't offend somebody BC they feel guilty. Mothers who breastfeed are making a greater sacrifice. They're putting in more time, more effort, sometimes physical discomfort, less sleep - all for the benefit of their baby. Why take that credit away from them just BC someone else may get offended, when they most likely had the choice but chose different. That's THEIR choice, they made it. Don't make everyone else pay bc you feel guilty. You didnt make a 'bad' decision, you made a different one, and most people do bc they say 'its too hard'. Okay, fine. Own that decision. I'm not talking down to people who had problems and could t breastfeed. I feel bad that they didn't have the choice, but I'm given credit where credit is due.

The women who choose to breastfeed are not always taking the easiest route, but they do it anyway. And the longer and more they breastfeed, the more credit I give them. The people who felt comfortable and stuck with it for a whole year get more applause from me, than say, I, who only made it a few or several months.

That's the way I feel, I think that's only fair.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I997 using CurlTalk App
Umm, who's taking the credit away from anyone? You're arguing over things that no one has said.

As a non-parent, I really don't give a damn how it's done as long as people are caring for their kids. I think it's silly to assign moral value to these types of things.
Eres o te haces?
Why am I having an almost-quarter-life crisis right now?!

"And death is at your doorstep
And it will steal your innocence
But it will not steal your substance
But you are not alone in this"

“My ability to turn good news into anxiety is rivaled only by my ability to turn anxiety into chin acne.” - Tina Fey
I'm frustrated. I had this great long post yesterday and then I went and ruined it by trying to post a picture. Boo.

I'm so unhappy. You need to go to your parents house. We've talked about this recently and if you want to continue this crap, then you need to leave. I'm ready to stop, but you sit there and say its negative here. THEN GO! I'm not holding a gun to your head. Go.

Mix of 3s, thick, coarse, medium porosity

Current hair styling technique: rake with a scrunch at the end. (works with my coarse hair)

http://public.fotki.com/curlymix/
pw: curls

Known HGs: KCCC, homemade fsg, honey
Umm, who's taking the credit away from anyone? You're arguing over things that no one has said.

As a non-parent, I really don't give a damn how it's done as long as people are caring for their kids. I think it's silly to assign moral value to these types of things.
Originally Posted by legends

Not arguing. Just stating my opinion on it. I hear it all the time. I give credit based on the effort put in. If you're doing more for a 'better' reason, you should get credit for that. If you don't let your kids watch TV, play board games with them all day long, I give you credit. If you host Thanksgiving dinner at your house and cook for a dozen people yourself, I give you credit. I don't expect you to tip toe around me BC I choose to not do that.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I997 using CurlTalk App
Why am I having an almost-quarter-life crisis right now?!
Originally Posted by SCG
That's normal!

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I997 using CurlTalk App
Why am I having an almost-quarter-life crisis right now?!
Originally Posted by SCG
That's normal!

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I997 using CurlTalk App
Originally Posted by iroc
It would've been a lot less complicated if it had happened like, 4 months ago!

Or, even better, back in November when I transferred schools and changed majors! My parents might strangle me when I tell them I want to change majors again. Haha

"And death is at your doorstep
And it will steal your innocence
But it will not steal your substance
But you are not alone in this"

“My ability to turn good news into anxiety is rivaled only by my ability to turn anxiety into chin acne.” - Tina Fey
I am starting to get an extreme hatred of pseudo inspirational quotes.
O.M.G. LUSH has makeup!!

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I997 using CurlTalk App
Does anyone here loition their ENTIRE body? I mean tummy, back, everything?
Originally Posted by kayb
I do!
Originally Posted by Amneris
Me too! I hate being dry!!!


Sent from my iPhone - blame autocorrect for everything strange
Originally Posted by Nej
My friend puts it on his penis and in his butt crack. Is that normal??
3b (with 3c tendencies) on modified CG

Whatttt the FFFF??
Central Massachusetts

One good reason to only maintain a small circle of friends is that three out of four murders are committed by people who know the victim. ~George Carlin~

In regards to Vagazzling: They just want to get into the goods without worrying about getting scratched up by fake crystals. ~spring1onu~

I do!
Originally Posted by Amneris
Me too! I hate being dry!!!


Sent from my iPhone - blame autocorrect for everything strange
Originally Posted by Nej
My friend puts it on his penis and in his butt crack. Is that normal??
Originally Posted by spiderlashes5000
Oh my too much information.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I997 using CurlTalk App
Hey, penises and butt cracks are skin too! Poor things, being neglected and unlotioned all the time.
In Western PA
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Umm, who's taking the credit away from anyone? You're arguing over things that no one has said.

As a non-parent, I really don't give a damn how it's done as long as people are caring for their kids. I think it's silly to assign moral value to these types of things.
Originally Posted by legends

Not arguing. Just stating my opinion on it. I hear it all the time. I give credit based on the effort put in. If you're doing more for a 'better' reason, you should get credit for that. If you don't let your kids watch TV, play board games with them all day long, I give you credit. If you host Thanksgiving dinner at your house and cook for a dozen people yourself, I give you credit. I don't expect you to tip toe around me BC I choose to not do that.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I997 using CurlTalk App
Originally Posted by iroc
IDK...I think this might be a bad precedent to set. Making women think they need to be martyrs. That good parenting = martyrdom. Sometimes good parenting is jist good parenting, no matter how hard or easy, etc.

In this debate, I am more interested in the quality of the nourishment provide, not really the amount of sacrifice required to provide it.
3b (with 3c tendencies) on modified CG

Only four more days.
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Hey, penises and butt cracks are skin too! Poor things, being neglected and unlotioned all the time.
Originally Posted by jeepcurlygurl
They may but I will not be determining if it's normal or not.
Central Massachusetts

One good reason to only maintain a small circle of friends is that three out of four murders are committed by people who know the victim. ~George Carlin~

In regards to Vagazzling: They just want to get into the goods without worrying about getting scratched up by fake crystals. ~spring1onu~

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