Redhair & its stigma through history

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I know the other thread was closed, so let's try not the get this one closed as well. I spoke with both the mods and Claudine/Ninja before starting this one.

I was just about to bring up a book related to the subject.
http://www.amazon.com/Irish-Became-W.../dp/0415963095

I think the phrase, while bad in origin has lost so much of it's "power" because the Irish are no longer seen as the minorities they once were. I heard about this book on NPR (I haven't read it) but I def thought about it when considering the orgin of the phrase "redheaded stepchild" and why people are so comfortable using it or unaware of it's orgins

Thoughts?
^ I would be interested in reading a bit more of that while keeping in mind, as it says, it is not a book that has or gives answers but starts a discussion.

As with anyone, it's one of things where you have several factors. Not all Irish came at once, in the 1800's. You had those with land grants, in favor with the government, who were slave holders. You had those who came from a bad situation, in complete poverty, competing for jobs. You had many that came in IS and worked for specific people until they paid for their voyage cost and you had some living in areas with no jobs, isolation, and just small farms to sustain their families. I have read some on the job situation, seen the articles posted in papers or flyers in shop windows asking that Irish not apply, etc. That seemed to be more common in cities (that was based on what was said in headlines, etc), though I have read about several groups eventually being ran out of numerous places they lived (or tried to live). It was an incredibly hard market for a few different people. I enjoy reading about all of those situations in history, even though it's not an enjoyable topic. I do think RHSC was mainly born during mass relocation/immigration around the potato famine. That makes sense when you look at the dates when it was first cited.
When I hear terms like "hipster" I think, who told cliques they could leave high school??


Last edited by Fifi.G; 07-16-2014 at 10:34 AM.
I just watched the South Park clip. (am i correct in seeing that is about 2 minutes long? I thought it was a whole episode.

Oy vey. I see they took this concept to the video game too.
I was wanting to share these in the other thread:

http://www.oneeyeonthepast.com/2014/...-here.html?m=1

It has some rather interesting info on the history of the term "Gingerism".

Researching the etymology of the term provides some alternate historical meanings. In 1904 it was used to describe a form of inebriety in England and America involving imbibing too much ginger tincture, typically used for stomach complaints. In 1918 a writer in The Saturday Review in researching the use of the suffix ‘ism’ suggested that ‘gingerism’ should be used to describe Churchill’s political method.

And this...

http://livinginatlanta.wordpress.com...s-the-science/

^ She is definitely more blunt and satirical, but adorable at the same time!

I know the sacrifices in Egypt are mentioned and there seems to be different information on that. I shared another link that stated this might have been in honor of Osiris vs thinking people with red hair were vampires.

Also, the extinction hoax :-/ That was done by P&G and for hair color. They said, "While redheads may decline, the potential for red isn't going away".

The same thing was said about blondes.
When I hear terms like "hipster" I think, who told cliques they could leave high school??

It's a whole show.

And there's also a boy who responded on YouTube. If you need links, I might be able to find them.

http://geaugadoggy.wordpress.com
Love the hair of the woman in your avatar.

Thanks. I found it. It was on Hulu. Season 9 episode 11. When did Mr. Garrison become a woman? Did I miss the full transformation?
claudine191 likes this.
Okay, now I love talking about Mr. Garrison. I guess he became a woman, but then he wanted to go back to being a man (I can't remember if Mr. Slave left him for Big Gay Al as a direct result), so he contacted a lab, which grew a new penis for him on the back of a mouse, but then the mouse escaped.

I kind of lost track after that.

http://geaugadoggy.wordpress.com
]Love the hair of the woman in your avatar. [/B]

Thanks. I found it. It was on Hulu. Season 9 episode 11. When did Mr. Garrison become a woman? Did I miss the full transformation?
Originally Posted by scrills;2288000[B
Sure wish it was mine.
TRBL likes this.

http://geaugadoggy.wordpress.com
I was just reading over reviews of the book and found this one particularly interesting

I don't understand some of the negative critiques listed by other readers (or who I presume read the book, it's hard to tell). I recently read the book and heard a speech by Mr. Ignatiev and the label of "racist" doesn't apply. Pointing out how 'whiteness' became a major part of the Irish-American identity and a method of securing a better place for themselves in America vis--vis free Blacks and slaves, he introduces a very useful analytical tool for looking at labor, politics, and immigration in the U.S. The hardships of the Irish aren't glossed over and neither are the consequences of their support of slavery and race-based politics - a choice that many other groups have seemingly made in coming to the United States.

Most importantly, this book helps us to see how much we take for granted the social construction of ‘whiteness.’ The reviewer who commented that the Irish were already white might not have paid close attention to the history of Catholic Irish in Ireland (especially Ulster). They were treated as a distinct race and this oppression is depicted concisely, but effectively, in "How the Irish Became White."

Overall, it is a well-written history book that promotes serious thinking.

******
A great deal of my family came from Ulster (we are not the only ones, btw). I have several different prongs on the tree. Some from Scotland, some from Ireland, many listed as Scot's-Irish (actually being both). Many people in Ulster were considered a different race. The Highland Scot's were considered a different race as well. Anyone who refused to let go of their Clan System/Celtic ways and assimilate. That is where a great deal of the people from my area continued to run into problems. That is where I also see some confusion in history. The Lowland Scots assimilated (before immigration) and called the Highlanders "Wild Irish" as opposed to Scottish. They did not see them as such. It is often said that most the people who settled in Appalachia were Lowland Scots/Irish. I beg to differ. It was duly noted in a book called "A Strange Land and Peculiar People" (1873, and where several of the still current Appalachian stereotypes came from) that we were a strange group of people who were very weird and "Clannish". We were, because we still followed the Clan system. Our language is also noted as being strange with each settlement having it's own syntax that outsiders can not understand. Wonder why (and this is very true)? We sought isolation and limited involvement with the government, period. If people came in we closed ranks to protect our own. Due to isolation, we stayed that way longer.

*Yep, I'll have to put this one on a to read list.
When I hear terms like "hipster" I think, who told cliques they could leave high school??


Last edited by Fifi.G; 07-16-2014 at 11:38 AM.
maybe it is the black girl in me, but I don't understand how whites can look at other whites and decide they are another race. Not that i think it's right when the do it with people of color, but this makes zero sense to me when they do it to people who look just like them.
maybe it is the black girl in me, but I don't understand how whites can look at other whites and decide they are another race. Not that i think it's right when the do it with people of color, but this makes zero sense to me when they do it to people who look just like them.
Originally Posted by scrills
It was all about speaking different languages, having different views and different beliefs but it is still weird to me too.
When I hear terms like "hipster" I think, who told cliques they could leave high school??

maybe it is the black girl in me, but I don't understand how whites can look at other whites and decide they are another race. Not that i think it's right when the do it with people of color, but this makes zero sense to me when they do it to people who look just like them.
Originally Posted by scrills
Yeah, it was mostly a cultural thing like Normans are different from Saxons, etc. but are both still White.

But another part of that is the concept of "Black Irish." Some ppl consider Irish tainted Whites bc of the Spanish invasian. And also bc it considers everyone w/ one irish parent a citizen and we could come and go as we pleased and had/have Irish passports. Irish settled in the Caribbean in the 1600s and 1700s and intermixed and became Black but are still considered Irish.

Irish aren't considered as pure...though the vast majority look "whiter" than English.
3b (with 3c tendencies) on modified CG

Heck, based on this I might not be white yet

Yep, still weird.
When I hear terms like "hipster" I think, who told cliques they could leave high school??

maybe it is the black girl in me, but I don't understand how whites can look at other whites and decide they are another race. Not that i think it's right when the do it with people of color, but this makes zero sense to me when they do it to people who look just like them.
Originally Posted by scrills
Really? I think Asians do it all the time(at least south asians do).
maybe it is the black girl in me, but I don't understand how whites can look at other whites and decide they are another race. Not that i think it's right when the do it with people of color, but this makes zero sense to me when they do it to people who look just like them.
Originally Posted by scrills
Really? I think Asians do it all the time(at least south asians do).
Originally Posted by Josephine
Japan and China is another Asian example.

People do it all over the world and have done it since the dawn of time - though they tend to call it "ethnic conflict" not "racial conflict" now.
Josephine likes this.
I'm trying to understand on what terms Asians sub-divide themselves, as in, what contributes to one being allegedly better than another.

http://geaugadoggy.wordpress.com
maybe it is the black girl in me, but I don't understand how whites can look at other whites and decide they are another race. Not that i think it's right when the do it with people of color, but this makes zero sense to me when they do it to people who look just like them.
Originally Posted by scrills
I forgot to the most obvious example in the last 100 years which is the racial doctrine that lead to World War II.

Racial identity is sociological not scientific so any group of people can decide they are a race to separate themselves from other people who are similar to them.

It can be based on language, physical characteristics - perceived or real - , history or anything that people think can separate them out from a group of their neighbours.

In the case of China part of their claim was linked to the fact they thought the origin of their first human inhabitants was different to the origins of everyone else in the world but most scientists disagree with this.

Last edited by Blueblood; 07-16-2014 at 12:50 PM.
I'm trying to understand on what terms Asians sub-divide themselves, as in, what contributes to one being allegedly better than another.
Originally Posted by claudine191
I have never known any Asians that think their culture is "better" than another. They do get perturbed when grouped together since Chinese people are much different from Japanese and Korean and Vietnamese. I get perturbed when people assume I'm Irish because of my appearance. I'm only 1/3 Irish and 2/3 Italian.

Anyway, each culture in Asia is much different than the others. Different traditions and ways of life. I doubt one particular society sees themselves superior as a whole, just different.

~Belle Bohemienne
~Belle Bohemienne

"If you are depressed you are living in the past. If you are anxious you are living in the future. If you are at peace you are living in the present." -Lao Tzu
maybe it is the black girl in me, but I don't understand how whites can look at other whites and decide they are another race. Not that i think it's right when the do it with people of color, but this makes zero sense to me when they do it to people who look just like them.
Originally Posted by scrills
It was all about speaking different languages, having different views and different beliefs but it is still weird to me too.
Originally Posted by Fifi.G
Actually, it's much deeper than that. I'm not skilled in this so I know very little, but looking at someone's bone structure can actually tell you where they come from and even wgat color their skin might be. The bridge of the nose is a big indicator. I can't into specifics, but white people usually have more narrow bridges than black people. Of course, that depends on where they are from. Asian people tend to have wide bridges too.

Eyes, hair, skin tone....it all plays a part. Just as all black people are not from Africa not all white people are from Great Britain.

India was once a British colony and all Indians were considered to be British. South Africa was a British colony and still is a predominantly white country. These people are considered Africans. They usually distinguish themselves as South Africans, but that just getting very specific.

Or consider Australia. This was where the British sent many of their criminals. Once they were considered British and now they are considered Australians.

I think in most cases it depends on how the individual feels. I lean more towards my Italian side. I grew up in that culture. A Jewish person may only be "Jewish" on major holidays. People that don't follow even aspect of the Jewish culture and faith.

In some parts of the world a culture may mo longer exist. Egyptians are people from Egypt, but most of them are from the surrounding Muslim areas. The Egyptians of pyramid times do not exist any more.

And take Hawaii, the majority of people in Hawaii are Japanese or of that decent. A person with real Hawaiian of an actual native is very rare.

So, I don't think it's so much someone differentiating between cultures as it is their personal preference of self identity.

~Belle Bohemienne
~Belle Bohemienne

"If you are depressed you are living in the past. If you are anxious you are living in the future. If you are at peace you are living in the present." -Lao Tzu

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