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deedles 03-24-2004 10:41 AM

Pledge of Allegiance
 
Hey Curlies,

Now let me first say that I hope this topic doesnít start WWIII but I was just wondering your opinion since it seems to be a HOT ISSUE right now.

If you feel like posting your reasoning along with your poll answer feel free.. and I donít mind going FirstÖ..

I donít mind the Pledge of Allegiance being in Public Schools at all and I don't mind the word "God" being said either.. I mean I know some kids when I was Back in school kids either stood up and said the pledge or just stood up but made the choice not to say the pledge I honestly donít see what all the broo-ha-ha is aboutÖ.

deedleguide

Summer91 03-24-2004 10:49 AM

I don't think they should make kids say the Pledge of Allegiance period. I know they can't technically force them to do it, but at my kids school the teachers pretty much make them say it.

curlyarca 03-24-2004 10:52 AM

I don't think they should make kids say the pledge of allegiance. I remember kids that didnt say it or that just stood there were ostracized, and I thought that was wrong. I don't care, teachers have A LOT of power, and can sometimes be the leaders of this pariah-making.

But I don't take offense to the "under God". Either or. Doesn't matter to me.

GuardianB 03-24-2004 10:55 AM

Don't really care either way but I dont think "under God" has to be a part of it.

I do feel that it should be taught in Public Schools with the option that a child recite it or not, believe in it or not.

Citizens of the country in which they reside should know these types of things. It bothers me greatly when a person who has lived here in the US for 30 years doesn't know the Pledge. Or an entertainer gets up to sing the National Anthem and doesn't know the works. :roll: :shock: :evil:

papayahed 03-24-2004 11:05 AM

I'm pretty ambivalent about the whole thing. I went to Catholic school and we were forced to say the Pledge of Allegiance as well as pray.

I don't think anybody should be forced to learn it nor the national anthem, to me their just fluff. The important part is that people know the mean behind these things in addition to how we became a country and why we became a country. What really irks me is when people shout about their rights (nobody here) yet don't know how they got those rights or where it is written that they have rights. But I digress.

I'm ambivalent.

Cabana Boy 03-24-2004 11:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GuardianB
Or an entertainer gets up to sing the National Anthem and doesn't know the works. :roll: :shock: :evil:

I hate it when they forget the works. :P

GuardianB 03-24-2004 11:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cabana Boy
Quote:

Originally Posted by GuardianB
Or an entertainer gets up to sing the National Anthem and doesn't know the works. :roll: :shock: :evil:

I hate it when they forget the works. :P

doh!!!

Who Me? 03-24-2004 11:16 AM

I think having kids pledge their allegiance to their country is a good thing. I also agree that people should know the history behind it, etc. I have no problem with the phrase "under god" being used in a Catholic School (as someone mentioned).

I DO have a problem with public schools using the phrase "under god". I believe in a firm separation of church and state. I have no problems with people believing in god, or praying, etc., but I do have a problem with it being enforced by the government. I don't think "in god we trust" should be on the money. I don't think the government should really fund religious institutions, and i don't think the president should mention god or religion or faith in his/her speeches.

I know a lot of people think along the lines of "just deal with it. it's not a big deal. say it, or don't say it".

How would you feel if the line went something like "One nation, without a god, with liberty...". I bet a lot of people would freak out, and wouldn't want their children hearing it, never mind saying it.

papayahed 03-24-2004 11:21 AM

Who Me? : That reminds me of an All in the Family episode (at least I think it was All in the Family) where Archie (or whoever) was saying something along the lines of : "Why should Jewish, Arabic, etc. have a problem praying to God? "

curlyarca 03-24-2004 11:22 AM

Or heres a ripe one: One nation, under Allah/Krishna/Vishnu/Jehovah/The Enlightened One.... :lol:

Sorry. Just messin'.

I think in the context given, 'God' could be generic. But I don't think it's being used this way.

GuardianB 03-24-2004 11:29 AM

To follow what WhoMe is (I believe) trying to say. If one does not believe in A God, say agnostic or atheist, why should they be driven to recite it in a way that has no bearing on their right or patriotism as a US citizen.

I do believe the "under God" phrase was only added in the '50's and did not exist in the original writing.

GuardianB 03-24-2004 11:36 AM

Francis Bellamy (1855 - 1931), a Baptist minister, wrote the original Pledge in August 1892. He was a Christian Socialist.

http://history.vineyard.net/pledge.htm

Quote:

Bellamy's original Pledge: 'I pledge allegiance to my Flag, and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with equality, liberty and justice for all.'

Who Me? 03-24-2004 11:41 AM

Yep, GuardianB, that's what I meant. It doesn't seem to me that Jews or Muslims or Buddhists, etc. have much of a problem with mentioning "god" in the Pledge. It's the people who don't believe in ANY of those gods that have a problem. And I don't see why they should be excluded in the pledge, or made to say something they don't believe, just in order to pledge to their country.

If you want to pledge allegiance to a god, go ahead and do so. But if you want to pledge allegiance to your country, god should have nothing to do with it.

scubagal 03-24-2004 11:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GuardianB

I do believe the "under God" phrase was only added in the '50's and did not exist in the original writing.

It was added in the 1950's during the McCarthy era.... we have had this conversation to death, and while it was one of the better debates here... I am not willing to do it again.

Gretchen 03-24-2004 11:54 AM

I think the words "under God" in the pledge are wholly unconstitutional and should be removed.
I think the guy presents his case to SCOTUS this week; it will be interesting to see what hapens.

Should kids be forced to recite the pledge at all? Seems like goofy, right-leaning forced patriotism to me, but I don't think it's unconstitutional.

rouquinne 03-24-2004 12:00 PM

whatever your personal thoughts are on this, your Supreme Court has ruled that saying the words "under God" does NOT constitute prayer.


http://quote.bloomberg.com/apps/news...C_lgM&refer=us

Gretchen 03-24-2004 12:08 PM

No, they haven't ruled yet. That story is just a reporter's early interpretation of the justices' thoughts based on the questions they asked the lawyer presenting the case. Could be an accurate interpretation or it could be misreading the justices playing devil's advocate.

The justices likely won't issue their opinions for months.

Summer91 03-24-2004 12:08 PM

Quote:

Seems like goofy, right-leaning forced patriotism to me
My thoughts exactly, which is why I don't think it should be something they should have to say or else they are made to feel like crap for it.

kurlykitty 03-24-2004 12:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Who Me?
Yep, GuardianB, that's what I meant. It doesn't seem to me that Jews or Muslims or Buddhists, etc. have much of a problem with mentioning "god" in the Pledge. It's the people who don't believe in ANY of those gods that have a problem.

Not quite true. Muslims don't call their god "God" - they call their god "Allah" and would have problems calling their god "God." Buddhists do not believe in transcendant, personal a god or goddess. There are many religious which believe in multiple gods and goddesses and would have a problem with pledging allegiance to a nation that under a "God" instead of all the gods. (And some adherents to the 3 Abrahamic religions believe that speaking the name of God, Jehovah, or Allah aloud is a blasphemy, anyway.)

The whole Under God thing really does reflect a Judeo-Christian bias - not just a bias against the nonreligious.

MeyerGirl 03-24-2004 12:16 PM

I don't think that anyone should have to this particular line of the "Pledge." If people do not want to say any of it that suits me fine. It is all just words.


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