Wash. appeal scourt says pit bull a deadly weapon - Page 13

mandyv · 06-14-2007, 05:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KCL

I guess the relevant questions are do pitt bulls attack humans a significantly higher percentage of times than GS or other breeds? Are these attacks more often serious or fatal with a pitt bull versus other breeds? Do these attacks come without provocation more often than with other breeds of dogs?

I posted the stats on that, which were ignored.

Koukla72 · 06-14-2007, 05:22 PM

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Originally Posted by Bailey422

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Originally Posted by Koukla72

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Originally Posted by Bailey422

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Originally Posted by Koukla72

Bailey, I didn't mean people who do take their pits out on walks without a muzzle are by default knowingly irresponsible and horrible. It certainly sounds as though you care about other people's feelings and it also sounds like your dog is, either through training or socialization or whatever, a lovely dog. But it's still true that most pit bulls, if they conform to the breed standard, have the ability to be animal-aggressive without warning. I do think you might want to think about the reality that on sidewalks and jogging trails that most people use to walk their dogs, people, children and other dogs are always "coming at you" and in close quarters, even if they don't want to be. A lead that's only a couple feet long is still plenty long on a sidewalk or trail only four feet wide or less, for example. And it's not their responsibility to make sure anything bad doesn't happen or even that we don't inadvertently scare them, it's ours as dog owners.

I'd also like to point out that these things also protect our dogs from people's fears of them.

In response to the bolded: if they fear my dog based on the way he looks, I would hope they make a small circle around us, not run straight at us and then get freaked out. My dog won't lunge or growl, so if merely coming into close proximity to him makes them afraid, it is their responsibility to go around. Surely you don't expect me to go two yards off the sidewalk every time I see someone. I'm not a mind reader, so I don't know if what makes them afraid. If I see someone who is obviously acting nervous (holds their child tighter for example), I will go to the side and stop until they pass. I do the same to people on bikes, in this case because bikes scare my dogs. But if somebody is coming towards us, my assumption is that they are ok being near a dog, and my only responsibility is to keep my dog from coming into physical contact with them, which I do. If I did scare someone (which in my 4 years of dog ownership has not happened), I can assure you it's because of their lack of common sense, not mine.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aries_jb

I for one consider myself to be responsible when it comes to my dog. I respect the fact that some people are scared by big dogs and that they might find them intimidating. If people coming towards me don't cross the street, then I do. If I see children playing in their yard, I cross the street. When I take my dog to the vet, I wait outside until we are called in. I don't try to bring him around little yappy dogs that might excite him because they're growling at him. If someone wants to pet my dog, I warn them that he jumps up. Then I proceed to have him sit and I hold him while they pet him. I don't take him to places that are frequented by other people walking their dogs, and it's not so much that I'm afraid he'll attack another dog, but that another dog will attack him. He's strong dog and if he decides to defend himself, he could potentially kill another dog. I don't want that hanging over my dog OR me. I don't care who caused it. To me that wouldn't be the point.

As far as what you're willing to do or not do while you're walking your dog, Bailey, I'm really sorry, but I think the difference in how you feel about what you think is acceptable and, just for example, Aries_jb's post a couple pages back about how she acts when she's out in public with her dog, kind of makes my point for me. Do you think she's misguided or foolish to take those measures to be considerate of other people, and to protect her own dog from others? Because I don't. People who hold up examples of their own wonderful dogs as anecdotal evidence that extra precautions needn't be taken in general are the ones that are misguided, IMO. I also don't think of the known history of a breed's breeding purposes as "fearful propaganda".

I think if you have a dog, especially a large dog of any breed (German Shepherds, too) but particularly a breed that's developed a bad reputation (unfounded or not), you have certain responsibilities to society and the dog itself. As aries_jb, and 2Happy, and I pointed out, it's just as much for the dogs' sakes as for the other person's. It's definitely a pain, it's definitely unjust, and it's definitely frustrating. Unfortunately that doesn't matter in the real world, and I still think that someone who doesn't acknowledge that and act accordingly is acting is some way very irresponsibly. And, come to think of it, rudely.

As my Dad sometimes says, if I have to choose, I'd rather do right, than be right.

Well, you confused me with that first long sentence, but I'll try to respond anyway. Aries is free to cross the street if she wishes. As she stated, her dog jumps on people. A big dog jumping on you us scary, I totally get that. But see, my dogs don't jump, they just keep walking. I don't think my dogs are angels and her dog is evil, but our dogs are different with different issues. Do I think she's misguided or foolish? Heck no! Her dog jumps on people! If I see people coming towards me and they don't act nervous, then I assume they're fine being near dogs. Like I've stated, my dogs don't jump, so we will pass each other and both go on our merry ways.

I live near several busy streets, and there is a sidewalk on only one side. I am not going to cross the street back and forth and risk getting one or some of us run over. I don't take my dogs near children's playgrounds, so that's not an issue. So I don't think it's right to tell me I'm very irresponsible and rude for not crossing the street (and endangering myself and my dogs), when I deal with the situations that Aries described by avoiding them altogether.

*sigh* Boy these quotes are getting long.

I really don't want to nit-pick, especially since it seems like we're arguing this issue from mostly the same point of view. I guess my main problem with what you've been saying is the implication, several times, that you think it isn't your problem if someone happens to be afraid of your dog. I think the reality that many people will always be afraid of your dog (and mine, when he still was alive) regardless of why or whether it's justified, must alter how you act. If someone's afraid of your dog, it doesn't matter that you know he's a sweetie and doesn't jump, they don't know that. And when someone with a "big, scary dog" drives someone else off a public sidewalk because they don't know if you're one of the responsible owners or not and because you're placing your comfort over someone else's fears, it does a disservice to all dogs and dog owners, because in that person's mind their opinion of many dog owners as arrogant and dangerous is now justified. And it happens over and over again.

I don't think the precautions Aries (for example - sorry for dragging you into it, Aries

) takes are "overkill", as she put it, I think they're pragmatic and respectful, whether she's walking her dog or taking him to the vet's. It's too bad that you live in an area where you can't feel comfortable taking the precautions Aries does, but often there's more to the question of, "Can I give this dog everything it needs?" than just the basic food/water/shots that people think of when they first want a dog. If someone lives in an apartment or house or something where they must walk a pit bull several times daily rather than give him a big yard to burn off energy, or lives in an area where there is no way they can safely avoid having the dog have close contact with small animals or children or fearful people, then I think they've chosen the wrong dog for their life, however much they may love it.

Kaia · 06-14-2007, 05:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Koukla72

I guess my main problem with what you've been saying is the implication, several times, that you think it isn't your problem if someone happens to be afraid of your dog. I think the reality that many people will always be afraid of your dog (and mine, when he still was alive) regardless of why or whether it's justified, must alter how you act. If someone's afraid of your dog, it doesn't matter that you know he's a sweetie and doesn't jump, they don't know that. And when someone with a "big, scary dog" drives someone else off a public sidewalk because they don't know if you're one of the responsible owners or not and because you're placing your comfort over someone else's fears, it does a disservice to all dogs and dog owners, because in that person's mind their opinion of many dog owners as arrogant and dangerous is now justified. And it happens over and over again.

Like I've already said multiple times, if the person seems afraid, I will move off the way until they pass. Where did I ever say I drive people off the sidewalk? If they are afraid but give no indication of that, no it's not my problem to figure this out. I do not possess mind-reading skills, for goodness sake! Some people are scared of cars, should I come to a full stop every time I see a pedestrian too?

mandyv · 06-14-2007, 05:39 PM

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Originally Posted by Bailey422

Some people are scared of cars, should I come to a full stop every time I see a pedestrian too?

This is what's known as a ridiculous nonsequitor.

Kaia · 06-14-2007, 05:41 PM

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Originally Posted by mandyv

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bailey422

Some people are scared of cars, should I come to a full stop every time I see a pedestrian too?

This is what's known as a ridiculous nonsequitor.

Oh, sorry. I forgot all your arguments are completely logical.

Koukla72 · 06-14-2007, 05:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bailey422

if they fear my dog based on the way he looks, I would hope they make a small circle around us, not run straight at us and then get freaked out. My dog won't lunge or growl, so if merely coming into close proximity to him makes them afraid, it is their responsibility to go around. Surely you don't expect me to go two yards off the sidewalk every time I see someone.

I'm sorry, I must have misunderstood this.

And, uh, I would hope you come to a complete stop if it looks like you're about to have an "encounter" with a pedestrian in your car.

(Sorry, just trying to lighten the mood a little.)

Cynaminbear · 06-14-2007, 06:16 PM

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Originally Posted by KCL

We could all find numerous references to house cats attacking that doesn't mean they are just as dangerous as pumas.

You have not had the pleasure of meeting our 2 yr old cat, Kitten. I believe he is part miniature puma (since he's probably only 5#).

06-14-2007, 06:22 PM

Well, guys, I had to go do something in Real Life, and I figured there would be fightin' words exchanged while I was gone. Guess I was right.

Three strikes you're out, time to lock this unproductive thread. Too bad, because I enjoyed the doggie pics.