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Old 08-29-2008, 08:43 AM   #41
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Please don't call me granny. That makes me feel so frumpy & old. My Mom is notorious about forwarding emails. I usually delete them without saying anything. She has been on a roll recently with anything concerning Obama, since she & her "clan" don't like him. I also have to listen to her rants on him when she calls on the weekends. I opened this email because I knew it was going to be another slam on him & I wanted to make a comment in hopes that she would "think." I guess I was wrong. I do believe that at 76 you can still change, but maybe not her. Thank God, I don't live near her.
Hey, it's a part of your name but I don't know you well enough yet to call you ladies underwear!!
I really need to change my user name. Wile still calls me Lotsa. I love her for that.

granny, g-string, bob...whatever you're called doesn't change the fact that you're hot. I was going to say the other day that you look much younger than the late 40's I thought you were but you posted your age and I was even more speechless...and that's hard to do.
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Old 08-29-2008, 08:52 AM   #42
 
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How do you view that as racist? Last time I checked, George W. Bush's photograph has been juxtaposed with a photograph of a chimpanzee for the last 8 years, as well. It's not racist in that situation, but it is when it happens to Michelle Obama?

I will agree that it is rather tacky, though.


ETA: I have a feeling I'm going to get flamed for saying this, but the double standard just drives me nuts.
I'm not going to flame you. Just going to point out that there is absolutely no double standard at all. Not even close to one. Not even a whiff or scent.

There is another thread going right now entitled Michelle Obama that has digressed in a way that sheds light on precisely why the image of Michelle Obama next to an ape has racist undertones, overtones and directly smacks of racism. Maybe you don't personally hold the racist views that would equate dark (or darker relative to european) skinned people as subhuman, primitive, violent, lesser developed and apelike. But there are people who think that way now, and historically there are many people who have thought it before and acted on it to justify slavery, lynching, etc.. etc.. etc..

George Bush being compared to an ape is a commentary on his underdeveloped intelligence and possibly his features, I'm not sure if his features are simian or not. But there is no skin color baggage (present or historical) to accompany those images in stark contrast to Michelle Obama.

I'm not making any of this up or even stretching much to make a fairly obvious point. I'm not sure why it isn't obvious to you either. Just because you may not hold racist views shouldn't mean that you can't spot or realize obvious racism. (ditto for others forms of identity based hatred and abuse against gays, the disabled, women, other minorities, the elderly, etc.. etc.. etc..)
I'm not sure why you assume that I am not aware of why this could be seen as racist by some people. I understand all of the history that you mentioned and am not ignorant of the fact that the intent of the image was possibly a racist jab at Michelle Obama. However, I am just curious why someone automatically viewed this image as racist, whereas for GWB it is to point out his "underdeveloped intelligence" and "features." How do we know that the image's intent wasn't to say that Michelle Obama isn't smart and makes funny faces?

Again, I understand the history and "skin color baggage" that goes along with the juxtaposition of the Michelle Obama image, but I really think it's unfair to say there is absolutely no double standard coming into play here.
Several other people responded with great insights, so I don't need to reply also. But of course I will anyway!

I was going to say, like CoH, that there is no double standard. But actually there is – and it benefits White people. The term implies that one group gets some sort of privileges that other groups don’t get…In this case that, when we, Blacks, are compared to simians, it’s meant as a racial slur.

Um, that’s no sort of privilege. It’s widely known that calling Blacks apes is a racial slur. Honestly, that really shouldn’t even be in question. It’s a way of saying we are less than human, again a common insult against Blacks.

Not to guano too much, but that attitude helped pave the way for the slavery and perpetuated it. As long as we weren’t even considered human, there wasn’t much incentive to treat us humanely. Eventually we were considered 3/5 of a person. Sweet! Eye roll…

On a related note, I have a friend from Africa (a chemist who’s applying to med school) who still gets asked if she lived in trees when she lived there. But of course! Don’t most animals live in trees? (No, actually, but you see my point…)

Whites have the privilege of not having to even think that someone is being racist to them for the most part. We don’t have that luxury.

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Old 08-29-2008, 08:58 AM   #43
 
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Hey, it's a part of your name but I don't know you well enough yet to call you ladies underwear!!
I really need to change my user name. Wile still calls me Lotsa. I love her for that.

granny, g-string, bob...whatever you're called doesn't change the fact that you're hot. I was going to say the other day that you look much younger than the late 40's I thought you were but you posted your age and I was even more speechless...and that's hard to do.
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Old 08-29-2008, 09:07 AM   #44
 
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I'm not going to flame you. Just going to point out that there is absolutely no double standard at all. Not even close to one. Not even a whiff or scent.

There is another thread going right now entitled Michelle Obama that has digressed in a way that sheds light on precisely why the image of Michelle Obama next to an ape has racist undertones, overtones and directly smacks of racism. Maybe you don't personally hold the racist views that would equate dark (or darker relative to european) skinned people as subhuman, primitive, violent, lesser developed and apelike. But there are people who think that way now, and historically there are many people who have thought it before and acted on it to justify slavery, lynching, etc.. etc.. etc..

George Bush being compared to an ape is a commentary on his underdeveloped intelligence and possibly his features, I'm not sure if his features are simian or not. But there is no skin color baggage (present or historical) to accompany those images in stark contrast to Michelle Obama.

I'm not making any of this up or even stretching much to make a fairly obvious point. I'm not sure why it isn't obvious to you either. Just because you may not hold racist views shouldn't mean that you can't spot or realize obvious racism. (ditto for others forms of identity based hatred and abuse against gays, the disabled, women, other minorities, the elderly, etc.. etc.. etc..)
I'm not sure why you assume that I am not aware of why this could be seen as racist by some people. I understand all of the history that you mentioned and am not ignorant of the fact that the intent of the image was possibly a racist jab at Michelle Obama. However, I am just curious why someone automatically viewed this image as racist, whereas for GWB it is to point out his "underdeveloped intelligence" and "features." How do we know that the image's intent wasn't to say that Michelle Obama isn't smart and makes funny faces?

Again, I understand the history and "skin color baggage" that goes along with the juxtaposition of the Michelle Obama image, but I really think it's unfair to say there is absolutely no double standard coming into play here.
Several other people responded with great insights, so I don't need to reply also. But of course I will anyway!

I was going to say, like CoH, that there is no double standard. But actually there is Ė and it benefits White people. The term implies that one group gets some sort of privileges that other groups donít getÖIn this case that, when we, Blacks, are compared to simians, itís meant as a racial slur.

Um, thatís no sort of privilege. Itís widely known that calling Blacks apes is a racial slur. Honestly, that really shouldnít even be in question. Itís a way of saying we are less than human, again a common insult against Blacks.

Not to guano too much, but that attitude helped pave the way for the slavery and perpetuated it. As long as we werenít even considered human, there wasnít much incentive to treat us humanely. Eventually we were considered 3/5 of a person. Sweet! Eye rollÖ

On a related note, I have a friend from Africa (a chemist whoís applying to med school) who still gets asked if she lived in trees when she lived there. But of course! Donít most animals live in trees? (No, actually, but you see my pointÖ)

Whites have the privilege of not having to even think that someone if being racist to them for the most part. We donít have that luxury.
I so agree to the bolded part. If I'm being compared to an ape I would think it is because I'm not very intelligent. It is so different for a black person.
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Old 08-29-2008, 09:26 AM   #45
 
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Does she know how racist that is?
How do you view that as racist? Last time I checked, George W. Bush's photograph has been juxtaposed with a photograph of a chimpanzee for the last 8 years, as well. It's not racist in that situation, but it is when it happens to Michelle Obama?

I will agree that it is rather tacky, though.


ETA: I have a feeling I'm going to get flamed for saying this, but the double standard just drives me nuts.
It's not a double standard. Not to be snarky, but are you not at all aware that black people have been compared to apes, gorillas, and monkeys by knuckledraggers who equate black people with these animals? It's completely racist, and there's no justifying it. While I'm bothered by the comparison of GWB to a chimp, it's not the same. It's just not.

I don't mean this as an attack on you, but I just can't believe that it has to even be explained that it's not right to compare a black person to a monkey. I don't like MO, but none of her facial expressions, mannerisms, anything warrant this comparison. It's totally based on her color, and that's disgusting.
I am aware. In fact, I mentioned that in my first post.

I'm also not sure where you ascertained that I condoned comparing a black person to a monkey.



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In context, where would you put the odds of that image being racist? Just curious.
I mentioned in my first post that I understand this image can and is being viewed by many people as racist, becaue it very possibly was meant to be racist. I never said it wasn't, I was purely trying to find out why it is ok for one person to be compared to apes because of their skin color and why it's NOT ok to compare another person to apes because of their skin color. For a third time, I acknowledge the comparison is not perfectly equal because of the "skin color baggage" in the history, but I think the question still stands.

Please understand I am not trying to debate the racist history behind the possible intent of the photograph.



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I was going to say, like CoH, that there is no double standard. But actually there is Ė and it benefits White people. The term implies that one group gets some sort of privileges that other groups donít getÖIn this case that, when we, Blacks, are compared to simians, itís meant as a racial slur.

Um, thatís no sort of privilege. Itís widely known that calling Blacks apes is a racial slur. Honestly, that really shouldnít even be in question. Itís a way of saying we are less than human, again a common insult against Blacks.
Phoenix, I'm not sure I agree that a double standard always implies that one group gets benefits that another doesn't... I never meant for it to be taken that way.


Unfortunately I don't think the point I was trying to make is being taken in the right way at all... I suppose I just cannot find the words to voice it correctly. Please understand I don't condone racism and I think it's unfortunate that anybody has to be compared to an ape for the purpose of showing their "underdeveloped intelligence" or "features," whether it be Michelle Obama or GWB.

I think I'll bow out of this one now...
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Old 08-29-2008, 09:47 AM   #46
 
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It's not a double standard. Not to be snarky, but are you not at all aware that black people have been compared to apes, gorillas, and monkeys by knuckledraggers who equate black people with these animals? It's completely racist, and there's no justifying it. While I'm bothered by the comparison of GWB to a chimp, it's not the same. It's just not.

I don't mean this as an attack on you, but I just can't believe that it has to even be explained that it's not right to compare a black person to a monkey. I don't like MO, but none of her facial expressions, mannerisms, anything warrant this comparison. It's totally based on her color, and that's disgusting.
yes.

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Whites have the privilege of not having to even think that someone is being racist to them for the most part. We don’t have that luxury.
exactly.
Further, the Michelle Obama thread. It's crap like that...If that were a "Cindy McCain" thread, I seriously doubt that the color of her skin would have even been brought up, much less a bunch of idiotic race-related/racist remarks from a bunch of pea-brains.
Wait, that's offensive to peas.
I like peas.
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Old 08-29-2008, 09:52 AM   #47
 
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It's not a double standard. Not to be snarky, but are you not at all aware that black people have been compared to apes, gorillas, and monkeys by knuckledraggers who equate black people with these animals? It's completely racist, and there's no justifying it. While I'm bothered by the comparison of GWB to a chimp, it's not the same. It's just not.

I don't mean this as an attack on you, but I just can't believe that it has to even be explained that it's not right to compare a black person to a monkey. I don't like MO, but none of her facial expressions, mannerisms, anything warrant this comparison. It's totally based on her color, and that's disgusting.
yes.

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Whites have the privilege of not having to even think that someone is being racist to them for the most part. We donít have that luxury.
exactly.
Further, the Michelle Obama thread. It's crap like that...If that were a "Cindy McCain" thread, I seriously doubt that the color of her skin would have even been brought up, much less a bunch of idiotic race-related/racist remarks from a bunch of pea-brains.
Wait, that's offensive to peas.
I like peas.
PEAS?! What is that, some sort of green slur? Are you a green racist or something?!

Ha....
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Old 08-29-2008, 10:00 AM   #48
 
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Visualize Whirled Peas.
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Old 08-29-2008, 11:39 AM   #49
 
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Visualize Whirled Peas.
Now you want to hurt the peas too?
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Old 08-29-2008, 11:45 AM   #50
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Visualize Whirled Peas.
Now you want to hurt the peas too?
They must be covered in butter and salt and sit on the end of my fork!
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Old 08-29-2008, 12:04 PM   #51
 
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I mentioned in my first post that I understand this image can and is being viewed by many people as racist, becaue it very possibly was meant to be racist. I never said it wasn't, I was purely trying to find out why it is ok for one person to be compared to apes because of their skin color and why it's NOT ok to compare another person to apes because of their skin color. For a third time, I acknowledge the comparison is not perfectly equal because of the "skin color baggage" in the history, but I think the question still stands.
Heres my take on it. It's never ok to be racist. (Agreed).
It's perfectly ok to make fun of the President of the United States in any way, shape, or form. Jr. High kids who do it to each other are bullies. Jr. High kids who would do it to a teacher are disrespectful. Adults doing it to the POTUS is funny. Oh, and it's ok and accepted.
ETA: Oops. This will NOT be ok or accepted when Obama is President. It will then be racist and not funny. (Not being sarcastic. Stating a fact).
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Old 08-29-2008, 01:06 PM   #52
 
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ETA: Oops. This will NOT be ok or accepted when Obama is President. It will then be racist and not funny. (Not being sarcastic. Stating a fact).
Actually, you are wrong. Caricature and comic jabs at Obama THAT HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH RACE will certainly be ok. Already we've seen plenty of this in the press. Obama the slender, intellectual, aesthete who can't relate to the everyday man. Obama the supporter of the green movement in his campaign, further branding him as more rarified than the average, working person. Etc..etc...etc.. There is such a thing as race-nuetral comedy or satire as opposed to race-loaded comedy or satire. (Contrast most SNL skits with most MAD TV skits for one illustration, or the humour of Penn&Teller v. Chris Rock). I think that most people paying attention can tell the difference.
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Old 08-29-2008, 01:17 PM   #53
 
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ETA: Oops. This will NOT be ok or accepted when Obama is President. It will then be racist and not funny. (Not being sarcastic. Stating a fact).
Actually, you are wrong. Caricature and comic jabs at Obama THAT HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH RACE will certainly be ok. Already we've seen plenty of this in the press. Obama the slender, intellectual, aesthete who can't relate to the everyday man. Obama the supporter of the green movement in his campaign, further branding him as more rarified than the average, working person. Etc..etc...etc.. There is such a thing as race-nuetral comedy or satire as opposed to race-loaded comedy or satire. (Contrast most SNL skits with most MAD TV skits for one illustration, or the humour of Penn&Teller v. Chris Rock). I think that most people paying attention can tell the difference.
Agreed. I was talking about comparing him to a monkey (ears sticking out, etc).
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Old 08-29-2008, 01:32 PM   #54
 
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ETA: Oops. This will NOT be ok or accepted when Obama is President. It will then be racist and not funny. (Not being sarcastic. Stating a fact).
Actually, you are wrong. Caricature and comic jabs at Obama THAT HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH RACE will certainly be ok. Already we've seen plenty of this in the press. Obama the slender, intellectual, aesthete who can't relate to the everyday man. Obama the supporter of the green movement in his campaign, further branding him as more rarified than the average, working person. Etc..etc...etc.. There is such a thing as race-nuetral comedy or satire as opposed to race-loaded comedy or satire. (Contrast most SNL skits with most MAD TV skits for one illustration, or the humour of Penn&Teller v. Chris Rock). I think that most people paying attention can tell the difference.
Agreed. I was talking about comparing him to a monkey (ears sticking out, etc).
Got it. I think that's right.
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