Not again. Please-not again


If one prays to Mary (as I interpet a hail Mary as a prayer to her) how is that not worship?
Originally Posted by redcelticcurls
The hail mary is actually a very biblical prayer...

"Hail Mary full of grace Blessed are you among women and blessed is the fruit of your womb" stated by the angel Gabriel at the anunciation...it's in the bible, should n't be a problem there, is there?

Holy mary mother of God (well, Jesus is God, she's his mom, no problem there, is there?)

Pray for us sinners (you can pray for me, right? Why can't she?)

Now and at the hour of our death (seems reasonable...pray for me now, and when I'm dying...)

Worship is what you do for God.
Prayer and worship are different on many levels...prayer means to ask (I pray thee) whereas worship...that's a whole different game.

Clear as mud?
Originally Posted by MaybeWavy
Lol, yes, clear as mud.

It's not something that bothers or offends me. I'm a Unitarian, so praying to womever or whatever you like is not a big deal to us. I actually think that such reverence or perhaps even worship of Mary is sort of interesting as it does place some femine aspect back into Divnity, along with those who call the Holy Spirit Sophia.

I just see a blurred line between prayer/reverence/worship.
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What is their terrible lot in life?

In the USA, nuns live a nice life. They have their room and board and education taken care of by the church during their active adult years, and when they get very old, they retire to private nursing homes run by the RC church, but which the US Gov't pays for, because every single one of them is on Medicaid. That's right...the RC church's nuns are on the taxpayer dole. Sweet deal for the RC church and the nuns are treated better than the average Medicaid nursing home resident.
Originally Posted by RedCatWaves
Where are these private nursing homes? I'm curious because I'm sure some of the ladies at St. G's (the local convent) would be quite interested in them. (The ones taking care of the retired and elderly nuns in the convent, I mean...) Its interesting how they ALL do this but its such a secret that the nuns themselves know nothing about it.

Smells alot like a bull has been here.
Originally Posted by MaybeWavy
I used to work as a quality control nurse for a laboratory that had nursing homes exclusively for their clients. My territory was northern and central NJ, and I visted each of my nursing homes monthly. There were at least 3 such private RC nursing homes in my territory. I know the nuns were all on Medicaid because I was privy to their medical charts. I don't know about other states, but I assume if the RC church is getting away with this in NJ, they are getting away with it elsewhere.
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If one prays to Mary (as I interpet a hail Mary as a prayer to her) how is that not worship?
Originally Posted by redcelticcurls
The hail mary is actually a very biblical prayer...

"Hail Mary full of grace Blessed are you among women and blessed is the fruit of your womb" stated by the angel Gabriel at the anunciation...it's in the bible, should n't be a problem there, is there?

Holy mary mother of God (well, Jesus is God, she's his mom, no problem there, is there?)

Pray for us sinners (you can pray for me, right? Why can't she?)

Now and at the hour of our death (seems reasonable...pray for me now, and when I'm dying...)

Worship is what you do for God.
Prayer and worship are different on many levels...prayer means to ask (I pray thee) whereas worship...that's a whole different game.

Clear as mud?
Originally Posted by MaybeWavy
Wanted to add onto this that with the saints, you ask them to pray for you, you don't pray to them.
I did find myself feeling really angry about the lot in life for the nuns in Rome though! GRRRRR......
Originally Posted by ajane


What is their terrible lot in life?

In the USA, nuns live a nice life. They have their room and board and education taken care of by the church during their active adult years, and when they get very old, they retire to private nursing homes run by the RC church, but which the US Gov't pays for, because every single one of them is on Medicaid. That's right...the RC church's nuns are on the taxpayer dole. Sweet deal for the RC church and the nuns are treated better than the average Medicaid nursing home resident.
Originally Posted by RedCatWaves
Yep. Especially when they don't pay taxes.
Originally Posted by legends

Nope, they never pay a drop of taxes. Not the church, nor the nuns. Then they get a free ride at retirement time courtesy of our Uncle Sam.
We venerate Mary, or respect her, ask for her guidance or prayer.

Where are these private nursing homes? I'm curious because I'm sure some of the ladies at St. G's (the local convent) would be quite interested in them. (The ones taking care of the retired and elderly nuns in the convent, I mean...) Its interesting how they ALL do this but its such a secret that the nuns themselves know nothing about it.

Smells alot like a bull has been here.
Originally Posted by MaybeWavy
I think that's what she means by private nursing homes. My high school had the convent and the nursing home on the same grounds, and while the nh isn't luxuriously by any means (I visited a few months back to see a former teacher, and I'd been there as a student), it's run by the church/convent(i.e. it's private), and all their needs are taken care of. Much better than many nursing homes I've seen.
Originally Posted by legends

Yes, they were large diocese, and the ones that I saw had nursing homes on the same grounds as the high school and convent.
So by that same logic, a baptist pastors on medicaid is a horrible thing as well, I suppose. Or maybe just priests? Whatever.

Christian attitude there (I know that Universalists have a similar thought, just not sure what to call it....not very familiar with that...)


It must be a diocesan thing, because we don't have them here.

I just find it interesting that whats ok for some isn't ok for others, just because they're connected to the church...
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It is not appropriate for your boss or anyone else in the workplace to force their religious beliefs or lack thereof onto the employees. IT makes for a hostile work environment. It is not an appropriate subject unless you work for a religions organization and even then there are limits. Tell him in a professional way to knock it the hell off. If he continues tell him to knock it off in writing. If he does not stop go to Hr.

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So by that same logic, a baptist pastors on medicaid is a horrible thing as well, I suppose. Or maybe just priests? Whatever.

Christian attitude there (I know that Universalists have a similar thought, just not sure what to call it....not very familiar with that...)


It must be a diocesan thing, because we don't have them here.

I just find it interesting that whats ok for some isn't ok for others, just because they're connected to the church...
Originally Posted by MaybeWavy
On which part, perhaps I can try to clarify.
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So by that same logic, a baptist pastors on medicaid is a horrible thing as well, I suppose. Or maybe just priests? Whatever.

Christian attitude there (I know that Universalists have a similar thought, just not sure what to call it....not very familiar with that...)


It must be a diocesan thing, because we don't have them here.

I just find it interesting that whats ok for some isn't ok for others, just because they're connected to the church...
Originally Posted by MaybeWavy

Yup...pretty much any religion that is exempt from paying taxes and then collects gov't welfare would be the same in my mind...evil and crooked.

I think the RC's are a bit different than most mainstream religions though, because RC nuns and priests don't pay personal taxes like many religious leaders do...they get away with that because the RC church doesn't pay them a salary, and they aren't allowed to "own" anything. The RC church is supposed to provide for them for life...but they obviously don't, since once they hit the nursing home stage, they go on Medicaid.
HA! Trust me, I'm not any kind of christian (and neither is RCW). I think it's appalling that churches of any faith don't pay taxes when they can well afford to do so and yet get the full benefits of tax-paying citizens.
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I thought about becoming a lay sister (not chaste enough to be a nun). I would go to one of the convents in California (CA has the best convents). It sounds like a pretty good deal, except you have to give your life to the Church - teach, help the needy, whatever they want you to do. I doubt they'd let me lay out on the beach in my bikini, and what is the point of living in CA if you can't do that? I gave up on that idea pretty fast.

Maybewavy, my boss likes to talk about politics, more like rant about politics. He only likes to talk politics with men, however. I guess he thinks that women are all liberals or that he doesn't feel women are fit to discuss politics. He hates Obama and goes on about how he's a Muslim extremist in disguise. Oh and he rants about how Rev. Wright thinks blacks are a master race (I'm ? on that one). Like I said, he's never discussed them with me. He usually has some young guy in a corner that he's ranting to. He also likes to talk about the "plight of the white male." He thinks affirmative action is a liberal plot to destroy the white male. Really fun fellow. If I hear him start to get fired up, I go to the opposite end of the building. I would caution you to just keep quiet. Work is not a place for politics or religion - especially people in authority should know better!
Mistress, you're exactly right.

And since this is getting to be nothing more than the same-

I'm out.

Thanks for the vent, all.

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If one prays to Mary (as I interpet a hail Mary as a prayer to her) how is that not worship?
Originally Posted by redcelticcurls
The hail mary is actually a very biblical prayer...

"Hail Mary full of grace Blessed are you among women and blessed is the fruit of your womb" stated by the angel Gabriel at the anunciation...it's in the bible, should n't be a problem there, is there?

Holy mary mother of God (well, Jesus is God, she's his mom, no problem there, is there?)

Pray for us sinners (you can pray for me, right? Why can't she? She's in heaven, Christians believe in life after death, so not necromancy or anything like that, so no problem there, right?)

Now and at the hour of our death (seems reasonable...pray for me now, and when I'm dying...)

Worship is what you do for God.
Prayer and worship are different on many levels...prayer means to ask (I pray thee) whereas worship...that's a whole different game.

Clear as mud?

Ok, from about.com...not my fave but it'll do in a pinch

Many non-Catholic Christians believe that it is wrong to pray to the saints, claiming that our prayers should be directed to God alone. Some Catholics, responding to this criticism, have argued that we do not pray to the saints but with them.
Both groups, however, are confusing prayer with worship. True worship (as opposed to veneration or honor) does indeed belong to God alone, and we should never worship man or any other creature as we worship God. But while worship may take the form of prayer, as in the Mass and other liturgies of the Church, not all prayer is worship. When we pray to the saints, we’re simply asking them to help us, by praying to God on our behalf, or thanking them for having already done so.
Sort of like asking your mom to ask your dad if you can borrow the car, because your dads a little grouchy...
Originally Posted by MaybeWavy
Just one protestant perspective... I don't believe in praying to (or with) the saints such as Mary because I believe they are dead. I do believe in life after death in the sense that saints (believers in Christ) who have passed away are now with God. Their souls are with God but they are not aware of what's going on here.
Is 57 too old to become a nun? I haven't had sex in a couple of years. I love their retirement. I'm going to look into this.
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So by that same logic, a baptist pastors on medicaid is a horrible thing as well, I suppose. Or maybe just priests? Whatever.

Christian attitude there (I know that Universalists have a similar thought, just not sure what to call it....not very familiar with that...)


It must be a diocesan thing, because we don't have them here.

I just find it interesting that whats ok for some isn't ok for others, just because they're connected to the church...
Originally Posted by MaybeWavy

Yup...pretty much any religion that is exempt from paying taxes and then collects gov't welfare would be the same in my mind...evil and crooked.

I think the RC's are a bit different than most mainstream religions though, because RC nuns and priests don't pay personal taxes like many religious leaders do...they get away with that because the RC church doesn't pay them a salary, and they aren't allowed to "own" anything. The RC church is supposed to provide for them for life...but they obviously don't, since once they hit the nursing home stage, they go on Medicaid.
Originally Posted by RedCatWaves
While churches themselves don't pay taxes, you are incorrect when you say that priests and nuns don't pay taxes. They most definitely do get salaries and they pay taxes (both federal and state, if applicable) on both their salaries and room and board. The IRS has a formula for them to calculate how much said room and board is worth. I know this for a fact since my best friend and former roommate is an ex-priest. I'm not sure where you got your information about this, unless you just assumed they wouldn't pay taxes.

I cannot speak to what you're saying about nuns in nursing homes, except to say that this is not what happened to the ones I know personally. Their care was paid for by the church in that their diocese was self insured and their healthcare was paid for by the diocese.
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What a dolt
Originally Posted by meryn
thats such a weird word
According to the nuns I knew, they didn't pay any sales tax. They had some kind of card they'd show when shopping. And I know they mentioned being exempt from some other taxes, but I'm blanking on which ones.

Mrs. Poppers, was your friend a religious or diocesan priest? I'm wondering if that makes a difference.
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Is 57 too old to become a nun? I haven't had sex in a couple of years. I love their retirement. I'm going to look into this.
Originally Posted by g-stringranny
Lol, but all kidding aside. I have totally wished there were secular monasteries. There are some parts of the life that really appeal to me.

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