My friend has become indoctrinated! - Page 6

Amneris · 02-17-2009, 12:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phoenix

Quote:

Originally Posted by afrosheenqueen

Then you shouldn't speak or counsel people on religious matters. Leave it to people who can operate in the spirit and not the flesh.

Are you talking to me? If so, who is that person who never operates in the flesh? Even if you weren't talking to me, who's that person?

To say never to speak on religious matters is insane.

She didn't say never to do it, but not to do it if you can't control your temper and emotions enough to respond appropriately if the person you are speaking to and trying to convert responds in a way you don't like. I understand you have your breaking point too, so if you notice you are there, then it's probably time to step back from the conversation or the topic.

The New Black · 02-17-2009, 12:09 PM

Sounds like she's saying never to me. She did not specify.

WurlyLox · 02-17-2009, 12:15 PM

Wow, I've been away from a computer for a few days and just came back to check up on this thread - I almost wish I hadn't, LOL!

Anyway, I just wanted to add my two cents to a couple of things . . . When we pray to God, He answers prayer, just not always in the way we wanted and expected. Sometimes His answer is "No." Why, I don't know, being only human. As the Bible says, things aren't necessarily meant to be clear to us now - we see "through a glass darkly". But all too soon, we'll see Him "face to face", and then God's reasons will become clear to us (1 Corinthians 13:12). So, I try to remember that and just ask that "this cup pass from me" or from whomever I'm praying about if possible but, nevertheless, that His will be done.

I've questioned God's existence just about every day that I can remember since I was about 9 or 10, especially when someone I love dies or when I see tsunamis and hurricanes or, even worse, the atrocities we just keep committing against each other, often in the name of Christianity or some other religion. But "faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things unseen" (Hebrews 11:1). I just keep hoping and believing that this isn't all there is and that one day I'll see His face and finally understand what it's all been about.

Yes, Christian's can be hypocritical just like any other people. And since we are only human, even though we should know to, we don't always take the high road, as with Phoenix's "back atcha". We aren't perfect any more than anyone else (Romans 3:23) and will never be perfect, amen and amen, LOL. We know we should be seeking God's will and trying to do it, but all too often We. Just. Fail. But we believe that Jesus came and died for our sins and that we can be forgiven for our sins and shortcomings if we state that belief - Thank goodness, because, try as we might, we'll continue to sin until the day we die, whenever that may be. But it will be, whether too soon, by our measure, from cancer or much later from old age.

All of our days are numbered. When someone I cared about dies, if I know they were a Christian, I selfishly weep for myself because I'll miss them, not for them because they truly are in a better place. And by "Christian", I don't mean that they were raised in a household that went to church or that was good and moral and leaned more toward Christianity than to, say, Buddhism or Islam. I mean that they themselves, individually, had personally asked for forgiveness of their sins and professed to believing in God and that He had sent His Son Jesus to die for those sins.

If I hadn't known them to have professed that belief, I weep because I may not see them in heaven (John 14:16) and for my failing in getting across the importance of being "saved". That's why Christian's sometimes come across as pushy, but unfortunately, we don't always find the right words or manner to communicate the one thing we believe is the most important thing in the world - Christ's "great commission" that we go out into the world and teach everyone what He's commanded (Matthew 28:19-20), foremost being that one must be "born again" to see the kingdom of God (John 3:1-21).

OK, enough evangelizing - just trying to get across why it's so important to Christians to try to get others to believe, too - We care for you. But unfortunately, our own belief doesn't usually give us any more eloquence than we ever had!

As Ben Franklin's old adage says, God helps those who helps themselves - Although God said to pray without ceasing, we shouldn't just sit and pray and wait for blessings to fall out of the sky. We should get off our fannies and do - you can pray anytime, anywhere while doing anything. Too many of us get caught up in church and religion instead of in doing the things Jesus taught. We should show we care by our actions and by just lending a listening ear if that's what's needed, not just by saying we'll pray for you.

The New Black · 02-17-2009, 12:19 PM

good post

LisaF1163 · 02-17-2009, 01:03 PM

Hey, Amneris - thanks very much.

Suburbanbushbabe · 02-17-2009, 01:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sairis

That's why it's kind of hard to talk to her, because I honestly am not trying to argue with her. I get that she's happy and she's coming from a good place. It's just that she feels I'm way too stuck in my way of thinking and don't want to take advice, but I simply don't think religion is the answer to my problems. She made some points which are probably true about me, but I can do without the sermon.
And it makes me cringe to hear that atheists aren't truly happy, and that it's an act. When she first told me about her sudden beliefs, I did not sense that she would get to such a point.

Maybe a reminder to her that no one forced her to the religion fountain. She found it when she needed it. She shouldn't try to force it on others.

Sleigh · 02-17-2009, 01:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amneris

Quote:

Originally Posted by LisaF1163

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phoenix

Lisa - Is saying "Give yourself over to God and it'll all be okay" really shoving religion down someone's throat? You might say it's a pat answer, but it doesn't sound forceful at all.

To me, yes, it is. That's just treating God as an all-purpose problem solver, when - really, don't you think it's better, for people who purport to love God so much, to try and help a friend by giving some advice they really can use? Let's say, for example, a person loses their job, and goes to another friend for help and advice. Not a hand-out, just anything helpful. Not knowing if God exists or not - believing it, yes, but not being able to prove that - what do you think is going to be the best advice? "Pray to God for help" and that's all, OR "Are you on LinkedIn.com? What about the job sites - Hot Jobs is better than Monster. Let me help you research the names of recruiters in the area. Hey, I'm really good at sentence structure - let me proof-read your resume so it's the best it can be." THAT's helping your fellow man, which to my understanding is what "Love thy neighbor" and "Do unto others" is all about. You can also throw in, "I'll pray for you, and you pray hard too" - it can't hurt. But don't make that the only thing you try to do for that person, no.

I don't think it has to be an either-or situation. You can offer practical help or suggestions AND listen to a person vent AND pray for them. I generally only suggest people pray if I know it is something they do or are open to, but I DO tell people I am praying for them because that is one of the ways I offer support. I ALSO listen and give practical help if I am able to do so. It sounds like Sairis' friend did all three.

you said that better than i did in my ranting

mad scientist · 02-17-2009, 02:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amneris

I don't think it has to be an either-or situation. You can offer practical help or suggestions AND listen to a person vent AND pray for them. I generally only suggest people pray if I know it is something they do or are open to, but I DO tell people I am praying for them because that is one of the ways I offer support. I ALSO listen and give practical help if I am able to do so. It sounds like Sairis' friend did all three.

I'm not religious, but I agree with you.

In the same way that I would listen, offer suggestions and then ultimately end up saying "You've done all you can, now you just have to sit back and hope for the best", my MIL who is religious would listen, offer suggestions and then probably end by saying "You've done all you can, now trust in God's plan for you" or something like that. The (good) intentions are the same in both cases, I think.

Nappy_curly_crown · 02-17-2009, 02:54 PM

Just my two cents...

I was always taught (at home, church, and church school) that you lead people to Christ by your actions...not your words. People will tune you out when you get all preachy on them, start quoting scripture, and telling them to pray/offering to pray for them. Almost every culture and religion on this earth has a saying that amounts to "actions speak louder than words". If people see you living a life that is truly Christ like (volunteering, community activism, mentoring, helping thy fellow man, giving back to those that are less fortunate, ect.) and see that not only are you happy, but that you have found a type of peace and are prospering (and I don't just mean money-wise) then they are MUCH more likely to be open to the teachings of Christ.

I personally despise when all people can offer in someone’s time of need is a "pray for strength" or a "I'll be praying for you". I agree that its the easy way out and quite honestly, I don't want a bunch of folks that don't truly understand the principles of Christianity and how to apply them in today’s world praying for me. If all you can do is go around quoting a few bible verses and can't apply that verse in the modern world or can't make it relevant, don't even bother. Christians are to not only tell people to pray and have faith, but also charged with helping those people so that they can see what the results of having that faith can yield. Sitting around and praying to God to help ease your/their problems and not doing a dayum thing to help here in the earthly plane will result in not a darn thing happening!

And for the record, I grew up a Christian and I still consider myself a Christine. However, I have little use for the man made blasphemy that is most religions/churches.

M2LRToo · 02-17-2009, 04:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amneris

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phoenix

Quote:

Originally Posted by afrosheenqueen

Then you shouldn't speak or counsel people on religious matters. Leave it to people who can operate in the spirit and not the flesh.

Are you talking to me? If so, who is that person who never operates in the flesh? Even if you weren't talking to me, who's that person?

To say never to speak on religious matters is insane.

She didn't say never to do it, but not to do it if you can't control your temper and emotions enough to respond appropriately if the person you are speaking to and trying to convert responds in a way you don't like. I understand you have your breaking point too, so if you notice you are there, then it's probably time to step back from the conversation or the topic.

I completely agree...also, great posts in this thread, Amneris.

Amandacurls · 02-17-2009, 04:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M2LRToo

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amneris

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phoenix

Are you talking to me? If so, who is that person who never operates in the flesh? Even if you weren't talking to me, who's that person?

To say never to speak on religious matters is insane.

She didn't say never to do it, but not to do it if you can't control your temper and emotions enough to respond appropriately if the person you are speaking to and trying to convert responds in a way you don't like. I understand you have your breaking point too, so if you notice you are there, then it's probably time to step back from the conversation or the topic.

I completely agree...also, great posts in this thread, Amneris.

Just sat through a sermon about this Sunday. About how you have to be completely in the spirit and in tune with God, prayerful, etc before you even approach someone to try and witness or help them. Very good points Amneris.

Scarlet · 02-17-2009, 05:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M2LRToo

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amneris

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phoenix

Are you talking to me? If so, who is that person who never operates in the flesh? Even if you weren't talking to me, who's that person?

To say never to speak on religious matters is insane.

She didn't say never to do it, but not to do it if you can't control your temper and emotions enough to respond appropriately if the person you are speaking to and trying to convert responds in a way you don't like. I understand you have your breaking point too, so if you notice you are there, then it's probably time to step back from the conversation or the topic.

I completely agree...also, great posts in this thread, Amneris.

+1

Suburbanbushbabe · 02-17-2009, 07:30 PM

Quote:

Christians are to not only tell people to pray and have faith, but also charged with helping those people so that they can see what the results of having that faith can yield. Sitting around and praying to God to help ease your/their problems and not doing a dayum thing to help here in the earthly plane will result in not a darn thing happening!

+1 Faith without works....

Amneris · 02-17-2009, 08:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nappy_curly_crown

Just my two cents...

I was always taught (at home, church, and church school) that you lead people to Christ by your actions...not your words. People will tune you out when you get all preachy on them, start quoting scripture, and telling them to pray/offering to pray for them. Almost every culture and religion on this earth has a saying that amounts to "actions speak louder than words". If people see you living a life that is truly Christ like (volunteering, community activism, mentoring, helping thy fellow man, giving back to those that are less fortunate, ect.) and see that not only are you happy, but that you have found a type of peace and are prospering (and I don't just mean money-wise) then they are MUCH more likely to be open to the teachings of Christ.

I personally despise when all people can offer in someone’s time of need is a "pray for strength" or a "I'll be praying for you". I agree that its the easy way out and quite honestly, I don't want a bunch of folks that don't truly understand the principles of Christianity and how to apply them in today’s world praying for me. If all you can do is go around quoting a few bible verses and can't apply that verse in the modern world or can't make it relevant, don't even bother. Christians are to not only tell people to pray and have faith, but also charged with helping those people so that they can see what the results of having that faith can yield. Sitting around and praying to God to help ease your/their problems and not doing a dayum thing to help here in the earthly plane will result in not a darn thing happening!

And for the record, I grew up a Christian and I still consider myself a Christine. However, I have little use for the man made blasphemy that is most religions/churches.

EXCELLENT POST. I totally agree, and that's what I was taught too (I grew up with a St. Augustine quote - "preach the gospel at all times, and when necessary, use words.") Very well put.

M2LR - thanks

fig jam · 02-17-2009, 09:44 PM

Wow, really great, thoughtful, and compassionate posts in this thread, Amneris. This had turned so ugly last night, I wanted to respond to some of it, but just didn't have it in me to try. I'm glad you did.

And I LOVE the St. Augustine quote. I'd never heard it, but you better believe I've made a note of it now.

WurlyLox · 02-18-2009, 09:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amneris

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nappy_curly_crown

Just my two cents...

I was always taught (at home, church, and church school) that you lead people to Christ by your actions...not your words. People will tune you out when you get all preachy on them, start quoting scripture, and telling them to pray/offering to pray for them. Almost every culture and religion on this earth has a saying that amounts to "actions speak louder than words". If people see you living a life that is truly Christ like (volunteering, community activism, mentoring, helping thy fellow man, giving back to those that are less fortunate, ect.) and see that not only are you happy, but that you have found a type of peace and are prospering (and I don't just mean money-wise) then they are MUCH more likely to be open to the teachings of Christ.

I personally despise when all people can offer in someone’s time of need is a "pray for strength" or a "I'll be praying for you". I agree that its the easy way out and quite honestly, I don't want a bunch of folks that don't truly understand the principles of Christianity and how to apply them in today’s world praying for me. If all you can do is go around quoting a few bible verses and can't apply that verse in the modern world or can't make it relevant, don't even bother. Christians are to not only tell people to pray and have faith, but also charged with helping those people so that they can see what the results of having that faith can yield. Sitting around and praying to God to help ease your/their problems and not doing a dayum thing to help here in the earthly plane will result in not a darn thing happening!

And for the record, I grew up a Christian and I still consider myself a Christine. However, I have little use for the man made blasphemy that is most religions/churches.

EXCELLENT POST. I totally agree, and that's what I was taught too (I grew up with a St. Augustine quote - "preach the gospel at all times, and when necessary, use words.") Very well put.

M2LR - thanks

ITA with you both. Have heard the St. Augustine quote but had forgotten it. Thanks! It pretty much says it all, doesn't it?

Boomygrrl · 02-18-2009, 11:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nappy_curly_crown

Just my two cents...

I was always taught (at home, church, and church school) that you lead people to Christ by your actions...not your words. People will tune you out when you get all preachy on them, start quoting scripture, and telling them to pray/offering to pray for them. Almost every culture and religion on this earth has a saying that amounts to "actions speak louder than words". If people see you living a life that is truly Christ like (volunteering, community activism, mentoring, helping thy fellow man, giving back to those that are less fortunate, ect.) and see that not only are you happy, but that you have found a type of peace and are prospering (and I don't just mean money-wise) then they are MUCH more likely to be open to the teachings of Christ.

I personally despise when all people can offer in someone’s time of need is a "pray for strength" or a "I'll be praying for you". I agree that its the easy way out and quite honestly, I don't want a bunch of folks that don't truly understand the principles of Christianity and how to apply them in today’s world praying for me. If all you can do is go around quoting a few bible verses and can't apply that verse in the modern world or can't make it relevant, don't even bother. Christians are to not only tell people to pray and have faith, but also charged with helping those people so that they can see what the results of having that faith can yield. Sitting around and praying to God to help ease your/their problems and not doing a dayum thing to help here in the earthly plane will result in not a darn thing happening!

And for the record, I grew up a Christian and I still consider myself a Christine. However, I have little use for the man made blasphemy that is most religions/churches.

Good post.
I was thinking about that today. I was raised in a Christian home, but now...I'm agnostic. However, I sometimes want to be a Christian...I know, that sounds strange. Anyways, I was thinking, if I were to ever be a Christian again, it would be a "Christ-like" christianity and not the fundamentalism I was raised in. Actions definitely speak louder than words.
I'd rather honor God by actions and by believing in a doctrine of "life" (living now, using principles now) than a doctrine of "death" (all about Christ's death, what God can do for me me me, avoiding hell, etc.). It really should be how to connect with others (God's creation) rather than just believing some things and saying bible verses. But that's just me.

Lotsawaves · 02-18-2009, 07:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amneris

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lotsawaves

Quote:

Originally Posted by RedCatWaves

A lot of religous folks seem to use religion as a cop out for offering real friendship, empathy, and advice. It's so much easier to say "pray about it, ask jesus for help" than to be a real friend.

When my nephew died, my SIL was so put off by most condolence comments being religous based. She felt like people just said their stock religious lines and felt like they had done their part in comforting her. It was all so trite and unhelpful.

I tend to unload ultra-religous types from my life. They get so boring.

My niece talked to her "religious" Mom about getting her tubes tied. She was 40 & really didn't want children. Her Mom told her to pray about it. My niece then called me. We had a good talk & she made her decision based on what she truly wanted to do. She told me she felt her Mom copped out on being a Mom. She didn't understand why her Mom couldn't talk to her about this. I told her it was probably because it went against her religious beliefs. My niece told me she needed her Mom, not some religious belief.

But whether or not religion was an issue, can someone else really tell another person what to do in that situation or make such a decision for them? Especially a person who may have something invested in the decision, such as getting grandchildren? Would it be different if her mother said "give it some really good thought and really think about what you want" instead of "pray about it?" I mean, at 40, in such a situation, you can't really expect your mother to make such a personal decision for you about your own body, and you can't expect them to love something that may go against their own beliefs or wishes, so all you can do is make a decision as to what is best for you. I guess I'm not sure what else she could realistically expect her mother to say or do when it sounds like she had already made a decision for herself. I don't think religion was the only issue here.

My neice needed someone to talk to. Her 1st option was her Mother, who you would think she could talk to, no matter what her age is. When she called me I talked with her about the pros & cons. Her Mother didn't. She just said to pray about it. My neice isn't religious, as her Mother knows, so this advice wasn't the best for her. I think it's sad that she had to go to someone else to talk this out with. I do think it has to do with religion. Before my Sister got religious she would talk to her children. Now she has alienated both of them thru the years. They are no longer close today.

wild~hair · 02-18-2009, 09:52 PM

When I'm down and asking for help, I want the other person to be the bigger person.

That means thinking of what I might need in that moment, not focusing on their own needs. That includes their own beliefs and religion.

With friends like that, who needs friends?

Seriously, this is why a lot of non-religious and religious people don't hang out. My religious friends don't preach. That's why we're friends. I learn more about them and their religion by watching how they live it. If they told me about it all the time, I would distance myself.

Same approach works for a friend who has similar religion as yours [gy] but expresses herself differently, or someone of a different religion than yours [gy].

It all comes down to basic mutual respect, imo.