Abortion thread: 9yo victim pregnant

The words might, but it's one of those things where I knew what she meant.
Originally Posted by Phoenix
Same here. That one sentence alone makes it sound like the woman doesn't matter. reading the entire post clarified it for me.
Originally Posted by YolyC
zactly...but agreed better safe than sorry, per Trenell's post.
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i grew up catholic and am no longer catholic or christian for a myriad of reasons, particularly the catholic church's retrograde treatment of women. and i agree that americans, in general, and christians in particular, can be incredibly smug and condescending when it comes to islam.

but i've been to afghanistan, right after the fall of the taliban. i've spent a lot of time talking to afghani women. trust me when i tell you that the taliban is far, far worse than the RCC. for starters, under the taliban, it was illegal for women to be educated. a woman unaccompanied by a male relative would be beaten, etc., etc.
Originally Posted by journotraveler


It's just a matter of degree. Oppression is oppression is oppression. Western women have fought against many of the more flagrant treatments. It wasn't so long ago that American women couldn't be educated or own property or vote. I never lose sight of the fact that if we weren't constantly fighting to keep those rights, religious-minded folks would try to take those rights away from women, and oppress them to the point of Afghani women.
Originally Posted by RedCatWaves
First you say the Catholic Church is just like the Taliban, now it's a matter of degree (and the post I just quoted really seems to contradict your initial comments). But anyway, your dislike for anything having to do with Christianity is pathological. Whether you like religion or not is your prerogative, but any rational, well-thought out arguments you make go right out the window when this sort of stuff comes in.
Originally Posted by Scarlet


It's fine with me if you feel that way. With a few rare sect exceptions, I think all of the "big 3" religions are oppressive for women. I'll go even further and say that women who participate in these religions are participating in the worldwide oppression of other women. There, I said it. If women are ever to be truly equal to men, religion will have to be eliminated from our governments, and even from our societies. I hope I live to see the day. Until then, some of us will continue the good fight against religion in government, and to fight to retain the rights that women do have, and to try to gain more that we don't have.

Last edited by RedCatWaves; 03-05-2009 at 12:11 PM.
It's fine with me if you feel that way. With a few rare sect exceptions, I think all of the "big 3" religions are oppressive for women. I'll go even further and say that women who participate in these religions are participating in the worldwide oppression of other women...If women are ever to be truly equal to men, religion will have to be eliminated from our governments, and even from our societies.
Originally Posted by RedCatWaves
How do you feel about something like Reform Judaism? The TaNaKh is not taken literally at all. They do the thing where women do male things but men [i]don't[i] do female things. However, Reform Judaism is focused on assimilating to modern society. So when that double standard starts changing throughout modern society, Reform Judaism will change to keep up with it.

So would that be ok? Or are the Abrahamic religions irredeemably suffused with misogyny?
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I guess they don't have RU 486 in Brazil. And the girl probably didn't tell the moms and the moms didn't find out until she was preggo so she would have been too late for an RU486.

Normally I would say let the girl decide if she wanted to deliver the babies or not, but being that's she's so young.....


I think they came to the right decision. Either way - deliver or abortion they both would have been traumatizing for her. She's definitely gonna need therapy for the rape and the abortion. If she's poor and living in Brazil, she is probably not gonna get it. Well there's an emotionally f'ed up kid.
I think the abortion will traumatize her also.

And I'm wondering how much the mother knew about the stepfather's tendencies before the girl got pregnant. It's hard not to notice that.
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I think the abortion will traumatize her also.

And I'm wondering how much the mother knew about the stepfather's tendencies before the girl got pregnant. It's hard not to notice that.
Originally Posted by Phoenix
Oh, I think men like that are VERY good at hiding that particular predilection.


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I think the abortion will traumatize her also.

And I'm wondering how much the mother knew about the stepfather's tendencies before the girl got pregnant. It's hard not to notice that.
Originally Posted by Phoenix

If her stepfather is having sex with her, she is already traumatized.
I think the abortion will traumatize her also.

And I'm wondering how much the mother knew about the stepfather's tendencies before the girl got pregnant. It's hard not to notice that.
Originally Posted by Phoenix
Oh, I think men like that are VERY good at hiding that particular predilection.
Originally Posted by Springcurl
Hmmm...See, I don't. I think you can feel it in a home, especially mothers.

I think the abortion will traumatize her also.

And I'm wondering how much the mother knew about the stepfather's tendencies before the girl got pregnant. It's hard not to notice that.
Originally Posted by Phoenix

If her stepfather is having sex with her, she is already traumatized.
Originally Posted by babywavy
There are multiple reasons for this girl to be traumatized. But I don't see the abortion as helping, at least not as much as others might see. It's compounding her troubles by just adding another kind of trauma into her life.

Women who've had abortions often suffer a lot of guilt afterward. Not always. And given the attention this case is getting and the power that the Catholic church holds in Brazil, she might feel particularly affected.
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I think the abortion will traumatize her also.

And I'm wondering how much the mother knew about the stepfather's tendencies before the girl got pregnant. It's hard not to notice that.
Originally Posted by Phoenix

If her stepfather is having sex with her, she is already traumatized.
Originally Posted by babywavy
seriously.

they will probably knock her out. the abortion would be the least of her worries... i know people who were raped by their fathers/stepfathers at an early age... they never recovered. the ones that i know have struggled with addiction/alcoholism all their lives.
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I think the abortion will traumatize her also.

And I'm wondering how much the mother knew about the stepfather's tendencies before the girl got pregnant. It's hard not to notice that.
Originally Posted by Phoenix
Oh, I think men like that are VERY good at hiding that particular predilection.
Originally Posted by Springcurl
Naw, I agree with Phoenix. I think the momma knew and tried to play it like it wasn't happening. There are always some 'off' things when stuff like that starts to go down, especially with the children themselves. Their behavior changes even if it's slight. For some women tho, men are so important that they are willing to look over some things if it isn't square in their face - and that includes infidelity and rape pedophilia.

I'm willing to bet money that if you asked the moms if things looked or appeared a little wrong or off about her daughter or the guy - she couldn't give you an affirmative 'no' answer.

Sounds like something for the Steve Wilkos show.
I think the abortion will traumatize her also.

And I'm wondering how much the mother knew about the stepfather's tendencies before the girl got pregnant. It's hard not to notice that.
Originally Posted by Phoenix
Oh, I think men like that are VERY good at hiding that particular predilection.
Originally Posted by Springcurl
Hmmm...See, I don't. I think you can feel it in a home, especially mothers.

I think the abortion will traumatize her also.

And I'm wondering how much the mother knew about the stepfather's tendencies before the girl got pregnant. It's hard not to notice that.
Originally Posted by Phoenix

If her stepfather is having sex with her, she is already traumatized.
Originally Posted by babywavy
There are multiple reasons for this girl to be traumatized. But I don't see the abortion as helping, at least not as much as others might see. It's compounding her troubles by just adding another kind of trauma into her life.

Women who've had abortions often suffer a lot of guilt afterward. Not always. And given the attention this case is getting and the power that the Catholic church holds in Brazil, she might feel particularly affected.
Originally Posted by Phoenix

You can not possibly think this. I mean, in what world would a 9 year old girl be 'better off' from anything by carrying and birthing a baby?
I can't? And where did I say she'd be "better off?" I specifically said:

It's compounding her troubles by just adding another kind of trauma into her life.
It's a case of choosing the lesser of two evils, so to speak. Hard choice.
No MAS.

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"Hope the Mail are saving space tomorrow for Samantha Brick's reaction piece on the reactions to her piece about the reactions to her piece." ~ Tweet reposted by Rou.

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I can't? And where did I say she'd be "better off?" I specifically said:

It's compounding her troubles by just adding another kind of trauma into her life.
It's a case of choosing the lesser of two evils, so to speak. Hard choice.
Originally Posted by Phoenix
You didn't say better off, but do you honestly think that going through L&D and then having to raise babies which she was forced to have would be less traumatizing then to have an abortion?

Hard choices yes. But, with the abortion she'd be sedated. While she may never forget, having and raising them kids would be a constant reminder of being raped.
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Last edited by YolyC; 03-05-2009 at 02:02 PM.
I can't? And where did I say she'd be "better off?" I specifically said:

It's compounding her troubles by just adding another kind of trauma into her life.
It's a case of choosing the lesser of two evils, so to speak. Hard choice.
Originally Posted by Phoenix
for me, there would be no choice. forcing a 9-year-old with an immature body and mind to carry a pregnancy to term and give birth is not an option. would never be an option.

and with the abortion, guilt and trauma would be all in how the adults in her life handle it. she's a child. responsible adults should be there to help her process it. she'll feel guilt and shame if they make her feel guilty and ashamed.
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It's no secret that having an abortion is traumatic - whether forced to have one or whether having one electively. You know that you have a living entity inside you (yes, just about all-choicers know that), and that the process is the virtual equilvalent to getting a vaccuum stuck inside your cootch and having the contents sucked out. It's a very painful process during the procedure and it's a painful process afterward physically.

Emotionally, you could be depressed. You could be manic. You often seek solace from relatives, or sex, or drugs and alcohol. Many people often think about their would-be babies for weeks and even years afterwards, especially on what would have been the birthday. And a lot of women do suffer guilt, lethargy, and a host of other emotional and physical feelings or ailments.

That's just the plain truth of abortion that even I, a pro-choicer can see and understand. That does not mean I think she should have had the babies.

Whether she should have had the babies or not is relative. Who can tell if a 9 year old would have been happy in choosing life for the babies over aborting them? If she would have had them she still could have been upset and traumatize and confused.

And I don't mention about the rape traumatizing her because I thought that was pretty much a given. It wasn't like I forgot or thought that rape wasn't traumauting to anyone, especially to such a young victim.
I can't? And where did I say she'd be "better off?" I specifically said:

It's compounding her troubles by just adding another kind of trauma into her life.
It's a case of choosing the lesser of two evils, so to speak. Hard choice.
Originally Posted by Phoenix
for me, there would be no choice. forcing a 9-year-old with an immature body and mind to carry a pregnancy to term and give birth is not an option. would never be an option.

and with the abortion, guilt and trauma would be all in how the adults in her life handle it. she's a child. responsible adults should be there to help her process it. she'll feel guilt and shame if they make her feel guilty and ashamed.
Originally Posted by journotraveler
Yes. Yes. Yes.

Pregnancy and Birth is no walk in the park. Delivery for a 9 year old. That would be scary as hell for her.


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I said...


It's compounding her troubles by just adding another kind of trauma into her life.

It's a case of choosing the lesser of two evils, so to speak. Hard choice.
Originally Posted by Phoenix
Don't misrepresent what I said. Carrying a child one was forced to conceive would be more awful than I can imagine.

But the solution isn't to just kill it. "It" is still a life that's every bit as valuable as any other. I do believe abortion is murder. And I don't think murdering an innocent is ever the answer. I just don't.
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Despite this, the Roman Catholic church has threatened to charge the mother of the girl with murder. A lawyer for the archdiocese of Olinda and Recife, which lies in the northeast of the country, says the child should have brought the twins into the world.
That's just sick and twisted. This definitely goes back to what the pro-choicers were saying on that other thread... why are the fetus' rights SO much more important than this innocent child's???

I'll admit, there are area of the abortion issue that are gray for me. But this is pretty black and white. It makes me sick to think that this girl's mother, who was only looking out for her child by approving the abortion could be charged with murder. Was she just supposed to sit back and watch her child die otherwise???
Originally Posted by MimsTX
Co-sign. Nothing more for me to add, you said it all, Mims, and I completely agree.
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I think the abortion will traumatize her also.

And I'm wondering how much the mother knew about the stepfather's tendencies before the girl got pregnant. It's hard not to notice that.
Originally Posted by Phoenix
Oh, I think men like that are VERY good at hiding that particular predilection.
Originally Posted by Springcurl
Hmmm...See, I don't. I think you can feel it in a home, especially mothers.

I think the abortion will traumatize her also.

And I'm wondering how much the mother knew about the stepfather's tendencies before the girl got pregnant. It's hard not to notice that.
Originally Posted by Phoenix

If her stepfather is having sex with her, she is already traumatized.
Originally Posted by babywavy
There are multiple reasons for this girl to be traumatized. But I don't see the abortion as helping, at least not as much as others might see. It's compounding her troubles by just adding another kind of trauma into her life.

Women who've had abortions often suffer a lot of guilt afterward. Not always. And given the attention this case is getting and the power that the Catholic church holds in Brazil, she might feel particularly affected.
Originally Posted by Phoenix
You don't think being forced to be a NINE YEAR OLD MOTHER would be traumatizing???

Honestly I think this is just a no-win kind of situation.

ETA: I guess we both agree on that last point... but we might not agree on what the lesser of two evils is. Given the fact that she might not even have survived the pregnancy, IMO it's pretty clear-cut.

It's a case of choosing the lesser of two evils, so to speak. Hard choice.
Originally Posted by Phoenix
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Oh, I think men like that are VERY good at hiding that particular predilection.
Originally Posted by Springcurl
Hmmm...See, I don't. I think you can feel it in a home, especially mothers.



There are multiple reasons for this girl to be traumatized. But I don't see the abortion as helping, at least not as much as others might see. It's compounding her troubles by just adding another kind of trauma into her life.

Women who've had abortions often suffer a lot of guilt afterward. Not always. And given the attention this case is getting and the power that the Catholic church holds in Brazil, she might feel particularly affected.
Originally Posted by Phoenix
You don't think being forced to be a NINE YEAR OLD MOTHER would be traumatizing???

Honestly I think this is just a no-win kind of situation.

ETA: I guess we both agree on that last point... but we might not agree on what the lesser of two evils is. Given the fact that she might not even have survived the pregnancy, IMO it's pretty clear-cut.

It's a case of choosing the lesser of two evils, so to speak. Hard choice.
Originally Posted by Phoenix
Originally Posted by Gemini13
Please tell me WHERE you got that. Even if I hadn't explicitly said,

There are multiple reasons for this girl to be traumatized.
you still could not have gotten that from my posts. Anywhere. At all.

And saying it's a no-win situation isn't much different than saying it's a choice b/t the lesser of two evils. So how can you say we disagree on that point?
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