Queer As Rights - No Religion Allowed

I actually do have a, I can't call it a reason, thing I'm wondering about...If gay marriage becomes legalized...But I'm afraid to post about it here because people will bite my head off if I do, or if I compare it to the thing I want to.


Ahhh, freedom of speech they say....
Originally Posted by sarasara
Is someone preventing you from speaking your mind and/or giving your opinion?
I actually do have a, I can't call it a reason, thing I'm wondering about...If gay marriage becomes legalized...But I'm afraid to post about it here because people will bite my head off if I do, or if I compare it to the thing I want to.


Ahhh, freedom of speech they say....
Originally Posted by sarasara
Is someone preventing you from speaking your mind and/or giving your opinion?
Originally Posted by M2LR
No, but hostile enviornment doesn't help.
[quote=iara;900900]
How I see it, there is never a good enough reason to take away someone's civil right. I see marriage between two human beings a civil right.
Originally Posted by Misses_Jai
agreed.....what i was trying to say, and i guess i didn't say it right, even though i thought i did, is that regardless of what side of the issue you're on, the other side's argument's either for or against won't be sound enough to convince you to change your mind.

for the record - i'm for LEGALIZING IT. i voted NO on prop 8 and fully intend to support overturning the passage of prop 8 as much as i possibly can.....nobody should be denied their basic civil rights.....
common sense is not common.....
CG since Jan 2009.....
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Everyone has the freedom to say whatever they choose, just like everyone has the freedom to disagree with what others say. If you're not interested in posting, that's one thing, but please, the idea that you're being barred from expressing your opinion is ludicrous.
"And politically correct is the worst term, not just because it’s dismissive, but because it narrows down the whole social justice spectrum to this idea that it’s about being polite instead of about dismantling the oppressive social structure of power.
Fun Fact: When you actively avoid being “PC,” you’re not being forward-thinking or unique. You’re buying into systems of oppression that have existed since before you were even born, and you’re keeping those systems in place."
Stolen.
I actually do have a, I can't call it a reason, thing I'm wondering about...If gay marriage becomes legalized...But I'm afraid to post about it here because people will bite my head off if I do, or if I compare it to the thing I want to.


Ahhh, freedom of speech they say....
Originally Posted by sarasara
Is someone preventing you from speaking your mind and/or giving your opinion?
Originally Posted by M2LR
No, but hostile enviornment doesn't help.
Originally Posted by sarasara
its a pretty heated topic, no doubt....i say post it....but that's just me.....it's not a reason, right? it's just a question so why not? again, that's just me.....

although you have peaked my curiosity....
common sense is not common.....
CG since Jan 2009.....
No hair color since 2007..i've stopped fighting the greys....they always win....
3a/some 2c
clarify - ACV rinse
co-wash - NGTT calming conditioner or suave naturals tropical coconut
rinse-out - sally's GVP cond. balm
dt - sally's GVP k-pak or lustrasilk
leave in & styling - KCKT, KCCC, HESMU mousse
styling loves - DIFFUSING!!! & plopping
Again, is there is any reason - religious or not - that will be acceptable to those who support gay marriage? My thinking is no.
Originally Posted by Myradella3
These are my thoughts exactly.

The very wording of the thread title is a good indicator that nothing short of getting on board with gay marriage will be accepted. All nay-sayers will be ridiculed regardless of their reasoning.

What a crock!
Originally Posted by misspam
No, the crock is those beliefs are being used to deny people their civil rights.

It's not like it's going to have any effect on you (gy).
Everyone has the freedom to say whatever they choose, just like everyone has the freedom to disagree with what others say. If you're not interested in posting, that's one thing, but please, the idea that you're being barred from expressing your opinion is ludicrous.
Originally Posted by MichelleBFT

I'm not barred. I was just stating that although people think they have something, because they have it legally or in some other form, that doesn't mean they really have it.

Examples, just random ones, no one in particular, and not even anyone from this board.

an aetheist very against religion trying to convince others that God does not exist, and mocking them when they do. They say they hate religious people because they try to shove religion down their throats, when they themselves are trying to shove "their religion" (no religion) down people's throats.

People thinking that they have freedom of speech because their country legalizes it, but in reality they don't because their society or groups of their society condones it.

Whatever it is. I'm not even talking about the US here, just in case someone else wants to jump down my throat.

But, in this specific situation, when people act hysterical and attack anyone who opposes them (attack as in tell them what they are saying is crap, bs...etc) then less people will want to give their opinion. That limits freedom of speech. You can speak, but you wouldn't want to anymore.

Is someone preventing you from speaking your mind and/or giving your opinion?
Originally Posted by M2LR
No, but hostile enviornment doesn't help.
Originally Posted by sarasara
its a pretty heated topic, no doubt....i say post it....but that's just me.....it's not a reason, right? it's just a question so why not? again, that's just me.....

although you have peaked my curiosity....
Originally Posted by Misses_Jai

I'm kind od bored, so I guess now is a good time for people to get hysterical. Will be entertaining.

I think, 200 years ago (or maybe more, I don't have a specific date, just saying) people viewed homosexuals as extreemely unnatural. So unnatural it would be the way some people might view brothers and sisters getting married now. (I think) people view siblings marrying as disgusting and unnatural. Maybe that's how people 200 years ago viewed people from the same sex who wanted to marry.

There are still some people who think that way. Just like you, if the way you are now, are placed in 2200 (assuming that you oppose brother/sister marriage) would oppose brother/sister marriage in that decade, even if others don't and just see it as a right or that its "none of their business."

No, but hostile enviornment doesn't help.
Originally Posted by sarasara
its a pretty heated topic, no doubt....i say post it....but that's just me.....it's not a reason, right? it's just a question so why not? again, that's just me.....

although you have peaked my curiosity....
Originally Posted by Misses_Jai

I'm kind od bored, so I guess now is a good time for people to get hysterical. Will be entertaining.

I think, 200 years ago (or maybe more, I don't have a specific date, just saying) people viewed homosexuals as extreemely unnatural. So unnatural it would be the way some people might view brothers and sisters getting married now. (I think) people view siblings marrying as disgusting and unnatural. Maybe that's how people 200 years ago viewed people from the same sex who wanted to marry.

There are still some people who think that way. Just like you, if the way you are now, are placed in 2200 (assuming that you oppose brother/sister marriage) would oppose brother/sister marriage in that decade, even if others don't and just see it as a right or that its "none of their business."
Originally Posted by sarasara
There are actually some societies that also embraced homosexuality, or were certainly more tolerant of it. And many royal family members intermarried to keep the blood "pure" or whatever. So, I don't think that your comment that "200 years ago" is necessarily correct.


As to your "hostile environment" comment...that isn't preventing your "free speech" as your initial comment illudes to. You still have your free speech, it's up to you how to censor yourself, or edit your post before others see it. No one is preventing you from speaking your mind or giving your opinion. If you are concerned that your comments might upset people, again, that really has nothing to do with someone actually preventing you from saying them. JMO.
Here's something I don't get.

You (no one in particular, okay?) believe gays are an abomination, etc., etc., because that's what Christianity says. Fine. You use that belief to deny other people who have nothing to do with you the right to marry each other. Thus, gay marriage is illegal.

Now I'm pretty sure premarital sex is also an abomination to Christians, yet no one is clamoring to make nonvirgin marriage illegal. Why is one sexual sin so much worse than the other?

If it's truly religious reasons (and not bigotry), that are enough to affect our country's laws, why the double standard? It's inconsistent at best.
The best revenge is living well. The second best revenge is fire ants.
Here's something I don't get.

You (no one in particular, okay?) believe gays are an abomination, etc., etc., because that's what Christianity says. Fine. You use that belief to deny other people who have nothing to do with you the right to marry each other. Thus, gay marriage is illegal.

Now I'm pretty sure premarital sex is also an abomination to Christians, yet no one is clamoring to make nonvirgin marriage illegal. Why is one sexual sin so much worse than the other?

If it's truly religious reasons (and not bigotry), that are enough to affect our country's laws, why the double standard? It's inconsistent at best.
Originally Posted by MoppyT
That's a big reason why I am for gay marriage - we tolerate premarital sex and cohabitation, adultery, divorce and all kinds of sexual and relational conduct that fall short of the ideal, so why would this be different?
Get used to me. Black, confident, cocky; my name, not yours; my religion, not yours; my goals, my own; get used to me. -Muhammad Ali











nm, I missed a post.
There are still some people who think that way. Just like you, if the way you are now, are placed in 2200 (assuming that you oppose brother/sister marriage) would oppose brother/sister marriage in that decade, even if others don't and just see it as a right or that its "none of their business."
Originally Posted by sarasara
The slippery slope argument (what's next? incest? marrying a goat?) just doesn't hold water. There's no reason to assume that things will be carried to their (il)logical extreme.

I really don't predict incest becoming less taboo. There are strong social reasons to oppose it, since it's typically coerced. Once in a while, two siblings separated as young children and adopted by different families wind up falling in love. Countries have different ways of dealing with that situation.

Anyway, 200 years ago it was considered unnatural for a woman to be educated. It was claimed that it would destroy her reproductive organs. It was also considered natural in the USA and other places for Black people to be slaves, and for non-whites in general to be subjugated. All I can say is, that's progress for you. It's not a slippery slope. It's people fighting very, very hard for the rights that we value today.

And it's also true that male homosexual relationships have been encouraged in many societies, that some societies traditionally have three genders, etc. Plus, lots of animals form homosexual relationships. And bonobos are typically bisexual. So homosexuality and bisexuality are definitely natural in many species, and that includes humans.

Last edited by Eilonwy; 03-10-2009 at 06:31 PM.
There is no logical reason. If it's not fear, then what is it? What was the reason for not allowing interracial marriage?
Originally Posted by Josephine
my sister doesnt agree with interracial relationships, so it would be pretty far to say that if she were alive before interracial marriage were legal then she would be opposed to it. shes thinks that there are too many differences between races to have a functioning relationship. she also believes in the preservation of black families. is she afraid of my white SO? no. she even said something to me about whow we needed to get married before we had another kid. thats not fear. you can not agree with something without being afraid of it.
Here's something I don't get.

You (no one in particular, okay?) believe gays are an abomination, etc., etc., because that's what Christianity says. Fine. You use that belief to deny other people who have nothing to do with you the right to marry each other. Thus, gay marriage is illegal.

Now I'm pretty sure premarital sex is also an abomination to Christians, yet no one is clamoring to make nonvirgin marriage illegal. Why is one sexual sin so much worse than the other?

If it's truly religious reasons (and not bigotry), that are enough to affect our country's laws, why the double standard? It's inconsistent at best.
Originally Posted by MoppyT
good question. maybe its because its harder to prove that youre a virgin? i dont know. but just playing devils advocate, there are plenty of extremist christians, for lack of a better term, that wont marry couples who cohabitate or those who do not recognize second marriages and the like.

eta: for those of you who are married, do you have to swear on a bible or take some sort of an oath that uses the name "God" in it when you do the legal portion of a marriage?

Last edited by subbrock; 03-11-2009 at 01:47 AM.
eta: for those of you who are married, do you have to swear on a bible or take some sort of an oath that uses the name "God" in it when you do the legal portion of a marriage?
Originally Posted by subbrock
No. There's no religious aspect whatsoever to legal marriage (in the US, anyhow). I'm an atheist, my husband is as well, and my wedding ceremony was 100% secular. My brother got ordained on the internet and officiated. The legal part of it was pretty much my brother signing the marriage certificate. I'm pretty sure he could have just signed the marriage certificate for us and mailed it in without there being any words of any kind.
"And politically correct is the worst term, not just because it’s dismissive, but because it narrows down the whole social justice spectrum to this idea that it’s about being polite instead of about dismantling the oppressive social structure of power.
Fun Fact: When you actively avoid being “PC,” you’re not being forward-thinking or unique. You’re buying into systems of oppression that have existed since before you were even born, and you’re keeping those systems in place."
Stolen.

good question. maybe its because its harder to prove that youre a virgin? i dont know. but just playing devils advocate, there are plenty of extremist christians, for lack of a better term, that wont marry couples who cohabitate or those who do not recognize second marriages and the like.

eta: for those of you who are married, do you have to swear on a bible or take some sort of an oath that uses the name "God" in it when you do the legal portion of a marriage?
Originally Posted by subbrock
That's their right. They don't have to recognize anything they don't want to or marry anyone they disapprove of. Any religion can have any rules it wants. Poof, I just invented a religion where you have to get married in clown shoes. I can do that and no one can stop me, that's my right.

What I'm asking is why is it law for the rest of us? And why are some sins dragged through this lawmaking process and not others?

(I know you have already said you are not religous, subbrock, so I'm not singling you out, this is for the room.)
The best revenge is living well. The second best revenge is fire ants.
eta: for those of you who are married, do you have to swear on a bible or take some sort of an oath that uses the name "God" in it when you do the legal portion of a marriage?
Originally Posted by subbrock


Nope. Even folks who are married in a church do no have to do any swearing. Religious preachers do not have the power to marry someone. When they perform a marriage ceremony, they are acting as a "witness" for the state.
I actually do have a, I can't call it a reason, thing I'm wondering about...If gay marriage becomes legalized...But I'm afraid to post about it here because people will bite my head off if I do, or if I compare it to the thing I want to.


Ahhh, freedom of speech they say....
Originally Posted by sarasara
Freedom of Speech does not mean you say something and no one opposes it.

There is no fear of being shots for speaking your mind.

I will say that with said freedom comes responsibility.


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There is no logical reason. If it's not fear, then what is it? What was the reason for not allowing interracial marriage?
Originally Posted by Josephine
my sister doesnt agree with interracial relationships, so it would be pretty far to say that if she were alive before interracial marriage were legal then she would be opposed to it. shes thinks that there are too many differences between races to have a functioning relationship. she also believes in the preservation of black families. is she afraid of my white SO? no. she even said something to me about whow we needed to get married before we had another kid. thats not fear. you can not agree with something without being afraid of it.
Originally Posted by subbrock
I don't know - I think you can disagree with interracial marriage but still think it should be legal so that people can make their own choice.

I'm like your sister - I believe in the preservation of Black families and interracial marriage is not my personal preference, BUT that is my opinion and I made my own choice for myself. I have many family and friends who chose differently and while their choices initially made me a little sad I would NEVER want anyone to tell them they could not choose it (yes, like "defending to the death your right to say something even though I disagree.") And I would also never treat an interracial couple badly or harass them about their choice... but yes, internally I do feel that all too often, (not always but most of the time) interracial marriage takes the power away from the person of colour and gives too much of it to the white person, and all this "biracial" stuff regarding the kids gets on my LAST nerve - but that's another thread.

The original reasons for being against interracial marriage came from white people and I believe it was because they a) wanted the races separate in all areas - if they couldn't use the same drinking fountain they darn sure couldn't marry and b) they were terrified of miscegenation because they feared the person who looked white but was "one-quarter" or "one-eighth" Black walking free among them. Interracial SEX and sex by force was not a problem - it created more babies to be slaves - but it was legal marriage that was frowned upon because that would imply an equal partnership sanctioned by the state. So, that is a little different from the homosexual marriage issue because most people who are against homosexual marriage I would assume are not OK with homosexual sexual acts in general, and there is also no procreation issue.
Get used to me. Black, confident, cocky; my name, not yours; my religion, not yours; my goals, my own; get used to me. -Muhammad Ali











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