Queer As Rights - No Religion Allowed

eta: for those of you who are married, do you have to swear on a bible or take some sort of an oath that uses the name "God" in it when you do the legal portion of a marriage?
Originally Posted by subbrock


Nope. Even folks who are married in a church do no have to do any swearing. Religious preachers do not have the power to marry someone. When they perform a marriage ceremony, they are acting as a "witness" for the state.
Originally Posted by RedCatWaves
Pretty much. In our Church wedding we didn't "swear" because it isn't an oath - it's a covenant with God. We took vows which we said holding hands in front of witnesses, and the symbol of them was the wedding rings.
Get used to me. Black, confident, cocky; my name, not yours; my religion, not yours; my goals, my own; get used to me. -Muhammad Ali











There is no logical reason. If it's not fear, then what is it? What was the reason for not allowing interracial marriage?
Originally Posted by Josephine
my sister doesnt agree with interracial relationships, so it would be pretty far to say that if she were alive before interracial marriage were legal then she would be opposed to it. shes thinks that there are too many differences between races to have a functioning relationship. she also believes in the preservation of black families. is she afraid of my white SO? no. she even said something to me about whow we needed to get married before we had another kid. thats not fear. you can not agree with something without being afraid of it.
Originally Posted by subbrock
Yes, I know there are people against interracial marriage(now) and I was honestly wondering, what is it then if it's not fear? Isn't it some form of fear though? In this case your sister fears that black families will not be preserved. Fear doesn't have to be being scared of a tangible thing or person.
But there is no relationship between the interracial marriage and gay marriage. The issues that gay people feel they have are not the same as the issues that racial minorities have experienced since the founding of this country.
But there is no relationship between the interracial marriage and gay marriage. The issues that gay people feel they have are not the same as the issues that racial minorities have experienced since the founding of this country.
Originally Posted by Myradella3

I wasn't implying that it's exactly the same(or on the same level) but it is a comparison. And it's only comparing the marriage aspect of it, not the overall individual discrimination aspect. Those are still comparable to me. Just because it's far less worse and not the same issues doesn't mean that they are still not issues.
Banned
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 156
Haven't read all the comments, but here is something I posted on another board about the same topic....

I think it is 'natural' for a man and women to be together. That's how it was suppose to go, that's why one has a peach and another has a banana. Peaches and bananas go together.

but every now and then, as we all know, things get thrown off. Peaches wanna be with peaches, and bananas wanna be with bananas. Sometimes, one person has a peach AND and a banana. Some people have peaches, and think they are bananas. Some people have bananas and think they are peaches. Sh*t happens.

But OVERALL, a peach should be with a banana.

Now since I'm definitely heathen and an atheist-identified pagan, I can't stand on 'god' or 'jesus' to tell what to think about this. So that means I have to think with.. OHBEGARSH!... my friggin BRAIN!

Marriage is a legal contract to let you do certain stuff here in America - claim 'relative' for somebody in the hospital or the morgue, file taxes and get a lower tax rate, bigger refund or whatever, lets you share medical insurance when you work and... whatever other special things that marriage get you.

Now if gays want any that, I don't see a reason for not letting them have it. If you don't wanna call it a 'marriage' then call it something else ('civil union' was floating around a lot) but give 'em the same privileges that married people get. I don't see what the big deal on that is. How about we call it 'untraditional matrimony' or something like that.

As for the military, gays can fight and they wanna join. I don't get why they are banned, except for my own little reasons. One is that the military was once (before women joined) seen as a masculine, macho, kick @ss fighting machine. It was all about GUNS, and KICKING @ss, and GETTING @ss (either thru rape or prostitution - be offended but that's how it was and still is). And gayness was seen as anti-macho, anti masculine, punkish, sissified (whatever derogatory word you wanna use). Gays can fight, but they project the wrong masculine image.

And there was the fear of gays doing what they do in public. Heteros ain't suppose to sexin in public in the military, so the same rules would apply to gays/homos. But it make an (insecure) hetero's blood boil to see a gay kissin another gay before he/she goes off to fight in this macho/masculine/testosterone laden institution called the military. So the word is 'KEEP 'EM OUT!' But hey, if no one ask then no one has to tell.. right?

Give me a friggin break already. What part of the religion and scripture is that based on? I remember something about thou shall not kill (which the military does often and with impunity) but that other stuff aint in there.
Banned
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 156
Here's his overall argument. The gay rights movement has been focused on white middle/upper-class men (which is true). This means that gay marriage, like straight marriage, would be tainted by societal racism. Therefore, gay people should not be allowed to marry. He uses the "marriage is bad, so gay people shouldn't be allowed to marry" argument I wrote about above.
Originally Posted by Eilonwy
I agree with the part in bold and think that is part of the point he is trying to make. But I don't think the latter is a valid point he is making. The piece is very verbose so it may be easy to misconstrue a few points.

On the other hand, some queer rights activists believe that marriage perpetuates a number of oppressive systems, including the gender binary, misogyny, people as commodities, etc... They say that marriage should not be the main goal of the queer rights movement, because it represents everything that queer people have the opportunity to reject. However, I don't believe that most people who subscribe to this argument are against gay marriage, per se. They're just against the idea that the goal of the queer rights movement should be so bourgeois and traditional. They'd prefer something more revolutionary and less restrictive.
I'm primarily hetero and I feel this way about marriage, so I can totally understand this point of view in bold. But I don't know what something 'more revolutionary and restrictive' should be. But if would be interesting to to hear that discussion and see what's tossed around (not neccissarily here at this forum but in general).
Banned
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 156
eta: for those of you who are married, do you have to swear on a bible or take some sort of an oath that uses the name "God" in it when you do the legal portion of a marriage?
Originally Posted by subbrock
i got married in a penticostal church and I didn't know I had options. 'God' was used in the ceremony and a bible.

Now I know better and that won't happen again.
Banned
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 156
I don't know - I think you can disagree with interracial marriage but still think it should be legal so that people can make their own choice.

I'm like your sister - I believe in the preservation of Black families and interracial marriage is not my personal preference, BUT that is my opinion and I made my own choice for myself. I have many family and friends who chose differently and while their choices initially made me a little sad I would NEVER want anyone to tell them they could not choose it (yes, like "defending to the death your right to say something even though I disagree.") And I would also never treat an interracial couple badly or harass them about their choice... but yes, internally I do feel that all too often, (not always but most of the time) interracial marriage takes the power away from the person of colour and gives too much of it to the white person, and all this "biracial" stuff regarding the kids gets on my LAST nerve - but that's another thread.

The original reasons for being against interracial marriage came from white people and I believe it was because they a) wanted the races separate in all areas - if they couldn't use the same drinking fountain they darn sure couldn't marry and b) they were terrified of miscegenation because they feared the person who looked white but was "one-quarter" or "one-eighth" Black walking free among them. Interracial SEX and sex by force was not a problem - it created more babies to be slaves - but it was legal marriage that was frowned upon because that would imply an equal partnership sanctioned by the state. So, that is a little different from the homosexual marriage issue because most people who are against homosexual marriage I would assume are not OK with homosexual sexual acts in general, and there is also no procreation issue.
Originally Posted by Amneris
I agree with this WHOLE post and think you summed it up very well (I have all of the same feelings on IR marriage but with maybe one difference on my part), and the part in bold would sum up the thing about homosexual marriage - I don't agree but I support your right to do it. Those who oppose it hide behind religion when they can just state something like 'I oppose it because homo sex is gross and unnatural' - but that is probably crude and the religious argument makes it sound more sane.

Last edited by Vagabond Davotchka; 03-11-2009 at 03:39 PM.
If you don't wanna call it a 'marriage' then call it something else ('civil union' was floating around a lot) but give 'em the same privileges that married people get.
Originally Posted by Vagabond Davotchka
If it's called "civil union," then gay people don't get the same privileges as married people. Marriage has a lot of social significance. Two unmarried people can be loving and respectful, and two married people can abuse each other. But the married couple's relationship is more socially acceptable and gives them higher social status.
There is no logical reason. If it's not fear, then what is it? What was the reason for not allowing interracial marriage?
Originally Posted by Josephine
my sister doesnt agree with interracial relationships, so it would be pretty far to say that if she were alive before interracial marriage were legal then she would be opposed to it. shes thinks that there are too many differences between races to have a functioning relationship. she also believes in the preservation of black families. is she afraid of my white SO? no. she even said something to me about whow we needed to get married before we had another kid. thats not fear. you can not agree with something without being afraid of it.
Originally Posted by subbrock
I think your sister has changed, or is beginning to change her mind. She is no longer as fearful of interracial relationships, because she sees you and your SO happy together and realizes, or is beginning to realize how silly she was being before. This continuation of that talk is just her being very stubborn or trying to save face.

Obviously I've never met your sister and don't know her. But I have seen this dynamic play out before when people overcome previously held prejudices, some in my own family.

JMO
I think your sister has changed, or is beginning to change her mind. She is no longer as fearful of interracial relationships, because she sees you and your SO happy together and realizes, or is beginning to realize how silly she was being before. This continuation of that talk is just her being very stubborn or trying to save face.

Obviously I've never met your sister and don't know her. But I have seen this dynamic play out before when people overcome previously held prejudices, some in my own family.

JMO
Originally Posted by wild~hair
oh no, shes still quite the racist unfortunately.
[quote=Amneris;902119
I'm like your sister - I believe in the preservation of Black families and interracial marriage is not my personal preference, BUT that is my opinion and I made my own choice for myself. I have many family and friends who chose differently and while their choices initially made me a little sad I would NEVER want anyone to tell them they could not choose it (yes, like "defending to the death your right to say something even though I disagree.") And I would also never treat an interracial couple badly or harass them about their choice... but yes, internally I do feel that all too often, (not always but most of the time) interracial marriage takes the power away from the person of colour and gives too much of it to the white person, and all this "biracial" stuff regarding the kids gets on my LAST nerve - but that's another thread.[/quote]

Please explain this paragraph.
[quote=FieryCurls;902768]

Please explain this paragraph.
Originally Posted by Amneris;902119
I'm like your sister - I believe in the preservation of Black families and interracial marriage is not my personal preference, BUT that is my opinion and I made my own choice for myself. I have many family and friends who chose differently and while their choices initially made me a little sad I would NEVER want anyone to tell them they could not choose it (yes, like "defending to the death your right to say something even though I disagree.") And I would also never treat an interracial couple badly or harass them about their choice... but yes, internally I do feel that all too often, (not always but most of the time) interracial marriage takes the power away from the person of colour and gives too much of it to the white person, and all this "biracial" stuff regarding the kids gets on my LAST nerve - but that's another thread.[/quote
What specifically do you want explained? I'm basically saying that I'm not a huge fan of interracial marriage but I support peoples' freedom to marry who they want.
Get used to me. Black, confident, cocky; my name, not yours; my religion, not yours; my goals, my own; get used to me. -Muhammad Ali











[quote=Amneris;902852]

Please explain this paragraph.
Originally Posted by Amneris;902119
I'm like your sister - I believe in the preservation of Black families and interracial marriage is not my personal preference, BUT that is my opinion and I made my own choice for myself. I have many family and friends who chose differently and while their choices initially made me a little sad I would NEVER want anyone to tell them they could not choose it (yes, like "defending to the death your right to say something even though I disagree.") And I would also never treat an interracial couple badly or harass them about their choice... but yes, internally I do feel that all too often, (not always but most of the time) interracial marriage takes the power away from the person of colour and gives too much of it to the white person, and all this "biracial" stuff regarding the kids gets on my LAST nerve - but that's another thread.[/quote
What specifically do you want explained? I'm basically saying that I'm not a huge fan of interracial marriage but I support peoples' freedom to marry who they want.
Originally Posted by FieryCurls
How is an interracial relationship taking the power away from the person of color and giving more to the white person?

What biracial stuff regarding kids gets on your LAST nerve?

Honestly I wanted these explained before I wrote something that could have gotten me banned from this site. I have been away from the computer for several hours now and I still can't articulate how I want to respond to this without being banned. Maybe I can come back tomorrow after I have had some much needed sleep and say what I want to say and read your explanation.


How is an interracial relationship taking the power away from the person of color and giving more to the white person?
Originally Posted by FieryCurls
I was sorta wondering this too. Sounds racist to me.


How is an interracial relationship taking the power away from the person of color and giving more to the white person?
Originally Posted by FieryCurls
I was sorta wondering this too. Sounds racist to me.
Originally Posted by Josephine
Yes, it really does.


How is an interracial relationship taking the power away from the person of color and giving more to the white person?
Originally Posted by FieryCurls
I was sorta wondering this too. Sounds racist to me.
Originally Posted by Josephine
Amen to that. I married a man who is half Peurto Rican and a quater Spanish and I'm Irish. There's never been any kind of power struggle. In fact we qualify for more things because my husband and children are Hispanic, so honestly my being white is a disadvantage. We've gotten better student grants, better loan deals, etc. The entire don't mix the races thing is stupid and out dated. I would have married which ever man I loved, I don't care about color. Your post contradicts itself your either ok with it or not you can't be both. No one has ever said or done anything to us to make us feel like I'm better or have more power because I'm white. I know several people who have married outside their own race and have never felt this way. If that's your belief that's fine, but you shouldn't try to paint interracial relationships with such a broad brush.

Just to hit my point home a little more my best friend was born (as were her parents) in South Africa. Her mother is a wonderful woman, but her father is the most racist SOB ever. He doesn't even think Italian people are white. You have to be pasty and pale to be "white enough" for him. He went nuts when she started dating a Hispanic man. They haven't spoken in years because of it. He can't give you any real reasons for hating or discriminating against anyone whom he doesn't consider white enough. It really makes me sad when I hear people say things like what Amneris said. Just making things worse. I mean its people like you who guilt people of different races into not marrying.

Last edited by curlygirlyme; 03-12-2009 at 12:37 AM.
On the other hand, some queer rights activists believe that marriage perpetuates a number of oppressive systems, including the gender binary, misogyny, people as commodities, etc...

They're just against the idea that the goal of the queer rights movement should be so bourgeois and traditional. They'd prefer something more revolutionary and less restrictive.
I'm primarily hetero and I feel this way about marriage, so I can totally understand this point of view in bold. But I don't know what something 'more revolutionary and restrictive' should be. But if would be interesting to to hear that discussion and see what's tossed around (not neccissarily here at this forum but in general).
Originally Posted by Vagabond Davotchka
To my knowledge, it's not a very widespread or coherent movement, so goals vary from person to person. And, while I find the subject really interesting, I'm not particularly knowledgeable.

I think generally the idea is that marriage shouldn't hold the societal significance that it currently enjoys, and that it shouldn't be the societal ideal. Some people prefer to cohabitate without marriage, or are in monogamous threesomes (three people who share a single exclusive relationship), or are very happy with open relationships, or aren't very interested in long-term relationships. The vast majority of people who are in a less-traditional relationship don't believe that marriage is generally a not-so-great institution. But among people who do feel that way, I think the point is that having marriage ingrained as the ideal relationship can limit people's expression of their sexuality and gender.

I may be getting it completely wrong, but that's what I've gathered. I haven't been able to google up more information.

Last edited by Eilonwy; 03-12-2009 at 04:39 AM.


How is an interracial relationship taking the power away from the person of color and giving more to the white person?
Originally Posted by FieryCurls
I was sorta wondering this too. Sounds racist to me.
Originally Posted by Josephine
Amen to that. I married a man who is half Peurto Rican and a quater Spanish and I'm Irish. There's never been any kind of power struggle. In fact we qualify for more things because my husband and children are Hispanic, so honestly my being white is a disadvantage. We've gotten better student grants, better loan deals, etc. The entire don't mix the races thing is stupid and out dated. I would have married which ever man I loved, I don't care about color. Your post contradicts itself your either ok with it or not you can't be both. No one has ever said or done anything to us to make us feel like I'm better or have more power because I'm white. I know several people who have married outside their own race and have never felt this way. If that's your belief that's fine, but you shouldn't try to paint interracial relationships with such a broad brush.

Just to hit my point home a little more my best friend was born (as were her parents) in South Africa. Her mother is a wonderful woman, but her father is the most racist SOB ever. He doesn't even think Italian people are white. You have to be pasty and pale to be "white enough" for him. He went nuts when she started dating a Hispanic man. They haven't spoken in years because of it. He can't give you any real reasons for hating or discriminating against anyone whom he doesn't consider white enough. It really makes me sad when I hear people say things like what Amneris said. Just making things worse. I mean its people like you who guilt people of different races into not marrying.
Originally Posted by curlygirlyme
To address your points:

1) I'm not OK with it in terms of my beliefs but I am OK with people making their own choices.

2) Italians traditionally weren't white. A lot of them have non-white blood. A lot of people don't think they are white. That in itself isn't racist as long as you don't treat them badly because of it, which is what it sounds like that guy is doing.

3) That isn't anything like the way I feel. I wouldn't and haven't gone nuts over who someone married or not speak to them over it and I don't hate anybody. Also, you're talking about a white person with colour prejudice. I'm a person of colour coming from the standpoint that my community needs to be built up, not that people aren't good enough and should be excluded.

4) I have never guilted anyone into not marrying anyone. Like I said, I support people to do what they want but I don't have to love it on the inside do I? I wouldn't tell them that unless they press me point-blank on the issue and even then it depends.
Get used to me. Black, confident, cocky; my name, not yours; my religion, not yours; my goals, my own; get used to me. -Muhammad Ali












Please explain this paragraph.
Originally Posted by FieryCurls
What specifically do you want explained? I'm basically saying that I'm not a huge fan of interracial marriage but I support peoples' freedom to marry who they want.
Originally Posted by Amneris
How is an interracial relationship taking the power away from the person of color and giving more to the white person?

What biracial stuff regarding kids gets on your LAST nerve?

Honestly I wanted these explained before I wrote something that could have gotten me banned from this site. I have been away from the computer for several hours now and I still can't articulate how I want to respond to this without being banned. Maybe I can come back tomorrow after I have had some much needed sleep and say what I want to say and read your explanation.
Originally Posted by FieryCurls

In general, people of colour have less power than white people in society and when they enter into a marriage, those distinctions are USUALLY maintained (and usually unconsciously.) When I said my comments were about interracial marriages, it's actually more narrowly about Black-white marriages.

I don't like the designation "biracial." I think it is nonsensical, meaningless and designed to weaken the Black community. It goes completely against history and reality. HOWEVER, I also strongly support peoples' right to self-identification and if that is what they want to call themselves, fine - BUT I think sometimes people who do so have been conditioned to do so out of less than great motives they may not be aware of.

These things have been discussed a lot on this site, maybe before you joined. I didn't think it was a great secret that I or other people feel that way.

I think Black-white unions COULD be a great thing, if there were not so many distinctions between the socio-economic standing of different groups. But right now I see the Black community as broken and in need of building up and when Black people marry white people, all too often it takes some of their focus and efforts out of the community. People say silly things like "interracial marriages will end racism" or "biracial people get the beauty of both worlds" but there's no evidence for any of that.
Get used to me. Black, confident, cocky; my name, not yours; my religion, not yours; my goals, my own; get used to me. -Muhammad Ali











Trending Topics


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 12:36 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright 2011 NaturallyCurly.com