Queer As Rights - No Religion Allowed


What specifically do you want explained? I'm basically saying that I'm not a huge fan of interracial marriage but I support peoples' freedom to marry who they want.
Originally Posted by Amneris
How is an interracial relationship taking the power away from the person of color and giving more to the white person?

What biracial stuff regarding kids gets on your LAST nerve?

Honestly I wanted these explained before I wrote something that could have gotten me banned from this site. I have been away from the computer for several hours now and I still can't articulate how I want to respond to this without being banned. Maybe I can come back tomorrow after I have had some much needed sleep and say what I want to say and read your explanation.
Originally Posted by FieryCurls

In general, people of colour have less power than white people in society and when they enter into a marriage, those distinctions are USUALLY maintained (and usually unconsciously.) When I said my comments were about interracial marriages, it's actually more narrowly about Black-white marriages.

I don't like the designation "biracial." I think it is nonsensical, meaningless and designed to weaken the Black community. It goes completely against history and reality. HOWEVER, I also strongly support peoples' right to self-identification and if that is what they want to call themselves, fine - BUT I think sometimes people who do so have been conditioned to do so out of less than great motives they may not be aware of.

These things have been discussed a lot on this site, maybe before you joined. I didn't think it was a great secret that I or other people feel that way.

I think Black-white unions COULD be a great thing, if there were not so many distinctions between the socio-economic standing of different groups. But right now I see the Black community as broken and in need of building up and when Black people marry white people, all too often it takes some of their focus and efforts out of the community. People say silly things like "interracial marriages will end racism" or "biracial people get the beauty of both worlds" but there's no evidence for any of that.
Originally Posted by Amneris
You are certainly entitled to your opinion and I totally respect it. I, for one, am not offended by it. But I am curious how your views factor into how you view your parents marriage, though. Many would consider them an interracial couple, simply based on their skin color and not knowing anything about their mixed heritage.

How is an interracial relationship taking the power away from the person of color and giving more to the white person?

What biracial stuff regarding kids gets on your LAST nerve?

Honestly I wanted these explained before I wrote something that could have gotten me banned from this site. I have been away from the computer for several hours now and I still can't articulate how I want to respond to this without being banned. Maybe I can come back tomorrow after I have had some much needed sleep and say what I want to say and read your explanation.
Originally Posted by FieryCurls

In general, people of colour have less power than white people in society and when they enter into a marriage, those distinctions are USUALLY maintained (and usually unconsciously.) When I said my comments were about interracial marriages, it's actually more narrowly about Black-white marriages.

I don't like the designation "biracial." I think it is nonsensical, meaningless and designed to weaken the Black community. It goes completely against history and reality. HOWEVER, I also strongly support peoples' right to self-identification and if that is what they want to call themselves, fine - BUT I think sometimes people who do so have been conditioned to do so out of less than great motives they may not be aware of.

These things have been discussed a lot on this site, maybe before you joined. I didn't think it was a great secret that I or other people feel that way.

I think Black-white unions COULD be a great thing, if there were not so many distinctions between the socio-economic standing of different groups. But right now I see the Black community as broken and in need of building up and when Black people marry white people, all too often it takes some of their focus and efforts out of the community. People say silly things like "interracial marriages will end racism" or "biracial people get the beauty of both worlds" but there's no evidence for any of that.
Originally Posted by Amneris
You are certainly entitled to your opinion and I totally respect it. I, for one, am not offended by it. But I am curious how your views factor into how you view your parents marriage, though. Many would consider them an interracial couple, simply based on their skin color and not knowing anything about their mixed heritage.
Originally Posted by medussa

Thanks, medussa - my intention isn't to offend you or anyone and thanks for understanding. I didn't really intend to go here but I couldn't help but respond to subbrock's comments.

That's a good question about my parents and I think that's partly WHY I feel the way I do... because I've had the opportunity to hear peoples' comments and see their reactions all my life and to experience first-hand the various misconceptions people have.

I do think that there are some equal partnerships between white and Black people where there is no power imbalance, definitely. But I think as the Black person getting into an interracial marriage, you're (gy) the one taking the risk that it may not be one of those.
Get used to me. Black, confident, cocky; my name, not yours; my religion, not yours; my goals, my own; get used to me. -Muhammad Ali











Thanks, medussa - my intention isn't to offend you or anyone and thanks for understanding. I didn't really intend to go here but I couldn't help but respond to subbrock's comments.

That's a good question about my parents and I think that's partly WHY I feel the way I do... because I've had the opportunity to hear peoples' comments and see their reactions all my life and to experience first-hand the various misconceptions people have.

I do think that there are some equal partnerships between white and Black people where there is no power imbalance, definitely. But I think as the Black person getting into an interracial marriage, you're (gy) the one taking the risk that it may not be one of those.
Originally Posted by Amneris
You've made some good points and your views on IR marriage are no less valid than anyone else's. Based on what you've written, I don't consider your stance to be racist.

Although I do realize that everyone will have their own opinion on this.


How is an interracial relationship taking the power away from the person of color and giving more to the white person?
Originally Posted by FieryCurls
I was sorta wondering this too. Sounds racist to me.
Originally Posted by Josephine
Yes, it really does.
Originally Posted by FieryCurls
It would only sound racist to me, if someone is against interracial relationships coming from a place of hate and bigotry. Amneris sounds like she is doing what she thinks is best for her and her family. It is a personal preference for her and she is not telling others who are in one it is wrong.

I think she mentioned her siblings have white partners, which I personally would not call interracial since their father is white.


Besides, there are quite a few people who say they prefer to date someone from their culture or religion because it makes it easier or whatnot. How is that any different from what Amneris is saying above? Just because she used race and not culture or religion?




Subbrock, does your sister really mean too many differences between races to have a functioning relationship?? It is not like each race is a different specie. LOL I think there are differences between ethnic groups that sometimes can make it difficult (e.g., having to explain things that comes is second nature in your culture. But, that does not have to be an issue, if you do not make it one. I personally prefer someone who thinks similar to me, which more often than not, he does not come from the same culture as me.




Back to the OP, what I do not get about the ban against gay marriages is it does not infringe on other people's rights to get married. Keep your personal preferences (in this case bigotry) out of laws. If you do not like same-sex marriages, then do not get one. Stop trying to deny other people rights.
You cannot invite someone to your house in the Hamptons and when she arrives, not let her stay. Tacky. Very Tacky. ~ East Village hipster.

People in Ward Three disdain three things: cleavage, hunting and dumb people who are richer than they are. ~ David Brooks


Once the number three, being the third number, be reached, then lobbest thou thy Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch towards thy foe, who, being naughty in my sight, shall snuff it. ~Armaments 2:9-21

What reason would be acceptable? For example, if I said I was against it because biologically men and women were made to go together or that original laws in this country were intended for only women and men to marry or anything else along that line, won't there be an argument against that logic? Isn't this one of those issues for which there will be no answer that supporters will understand or accept as valid?
Originally Posted by Myradella3
You are correct so don't even bother with this, girl. No answer is ever good enough to those who are against what you believe.


As has been said, there certainly ARE non-religious arguments against gay marriage, but what difference does it make whether the arguments are religious or not? Someone for gay marriage isn't going to accept any argument against it. And why is religion any less valid grounds for holding a position than anything else?

There are also religious arguments FOR gay marriage and gay rights - so would those be also unacceptable?

To compare Blacks and gays is just silly and betrays a complete lack of understanding of history. Why would gays need to piggyback on Black struggles? Just make your case without trying to attach it to something that's not relevant.
Originally Posted by Amneris

NM



Last edited by Jaguar Paw; 03-12-2009 at 11:23 AM.
What reason would be acceptable? For example, if I said I was against it because biologically men and women were made to go together or that original laws in this country were intended for only women and men to marry or anything else along that line, won't there be an argument against that logic? Isn't this one of those issues for which there will be no answer that supporters will understand or accept as valid?
Originally Posted by Myradella3
You are correct so don't even bother with this, girl. No answer is ever good enough to those who are against what you believe.
Originally Posted by Jaguar Paw
See, I am OK with you believing what you want, but why would you want your (personal/religious) beliefs to be law?

Actually, I think I would reword the OP's question to ask, what reason would you give to deny another human being a human right?
You cannot invite someone to your house in the Hamptons and when she arrives, not let her stay. Tacky. Very Tacky. ~ East Village hipster.

People in Ward Three disdain three things: cleavage, hunting and dumb people who are richer than they are. ~ David Brooks


Once the number three, being the third number, be reached, then lobbest thou thy Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch towards thy foe, who, being naughty in my sight, shall snuff it. ~Armaments 2:9-21

What reason would be acceptable? For example, if I said I was against it because biologically men and women were made to go together or that original laws in this country were intended for only women and men to marry or anything else along that line, won't there be an argument against that logic? Isn't this one of those issues for which there will be no answer that supporters will understand or accept as valid?
Originally Posted by Myradella3
You are correct so don't even bother with this, girl. No answer is ever good enough to those who are against what you believe.
Originally Posted by Jaguar Paw
See, I am OK with you believing what you want, but why would you want your (personal/religious) beliefs to be law?

Actually, I think I would reword the OP's question to ask, what reason would you give to deny another human being a human right?
Originally Posted by iara

First off, I am not the one who placed the gay marriage law on the ballot, but since I have the right to vote on the issue, I surely will.

Aren't most laws based on personal/religious beliefs? Why would this be so different? Since the beginning of time, man and woman have been joined in marriage, why change it's definition? Why try to get me, someone who doesn't believe in gay marriage, to accept this? People want to constantly say that Jane and Janice getting married won't affect me personally, but that's a lie. I would be forced to recognize/acknowledge the marriage in some form or fashion eventually.



What specifically do you want explained? I'm basically saying that I'm not a huge fan of interracial marriage but I support peoples' freedom to marry who they want.
Originally Posted by Amneris
How is an interracial relationship taking the power away from the person of color and giving more to the white person?

What biracial stuff regarding kids gets on your LAST nerve?

Honestly I wanted these explained before I wrote something that could have gotten me banned from this site. I have been away from the computer for several hours now and I still can't articulate how I want to respond to this without being banned. Maybe I can come back tomorrow after I have had some much needed sleep and say what I want to say and read your explanation.
Originally Posted by FieryCurls

In general, people of colour have less power than white people in society and when they enter into a marriage, those distinctions are USUALLY maintained (and usually unconsciously.) When I said my comments were about interracial marriages, it's actually more narrowly about Black-white marriages.

I think Black-white unions COULD be a great thing, if there were not so many distinctions between the socio-economic standing of different groups. But right now I see the Black community as broken and in need of building up and when Black people marry white people, all too often it takes some of their focus and efforts out of the community. People say silly things like "interracial marriages will end racism" or "biracial people get the beauty of both worlds" but there's no evidence for any of that.
Originally Posted by Amneris

That makes sense to me but saying that it takes away power from the person of color can be quite offensive and untrue in many cases but in general, I see your point.
It would only sound racist to me, if someone is against interracial relationships coming from a place of hate and bigotry. Amneris sounds like she is doing what she thinks is best for her and her family. It is a personal preference for her and she is not telling others who are in one it is wrong.

Besides, there are quite a few people who say they prefer to date someone from their culture or religion because it makes it easier or whatnot. How is that any different from what Amneris is saying above? Just because she used race and not culture or religion?
Originally Posted by iara
Yea, that's why I said sorta. Preference is fine but the part about taking away power is what made me wonder, that's all.
I would be forced to recognize/acknowledge the marriage in some form or fashion eventually.
I don't like that the KKK exists, but I recognize and (begrudgingly) accept their right to assemble.

It's not okay to impede on someone else's rights just because you feel icky about making it into a law.

You are correct so don't even bother with this, girl. No answer is ever good enough to those who are against what you believe.
Originally Posted by Jaguar Paw
See, I am OK with you believing what you want, but why would you want your (personal/religious) beliefs to be law?

Actually, I think I would reword the OP's question to ask, what reason would you give to deny another human being a human right?
Originally Posted by iara

First off, I am not the one who placed the gay marriage law on the ballot, but since I have the right to vote on the issue, I surely will.

Aren't most laws based on personal/religious beliefs? Why would this be so different? Since the beginning of time, man and woman have been joined in marriage, why change it's definition? Why try to get me, someone who doesn't believe in gay marriage, to accept this? People want to constantly say that Jane and Janice getting married won't affect me personally, but that's a lie. I would be forced to recognize/acknowledge the marriage in some form or fashion eventually.
Originally Posted by Jaguar Paw

That's not an infringement of rights. Nothing is being taken away from you. Your right to get married be it in a church or not is still protected. Just being uncomfortable with it isn't a reason not to allow it. I'm uncomfortable with fundamental Christianity but I sure as hell think people have a right to practice it.
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Since we're (sort of) back on topic, I'd like to respectfully re-submit my question. I'm not looking to pick a fight with anyone, just trying to understand the difference:

Here's something I don't get.

You (no one in particular, okay?) believe gays are an abomination, etc., etc., because that's what Christianity says. Fine. You use that belief to deny other people who have nothing to do with you the right to marry each other. Thus, gay marriage is illegal.

Now I'm pretty sure premarital sex is also an abomination to Christians, yet no one is clamoring to make nonvirgin marriage illegal. Why is one sexual sin so much worse than the other?

If it's truly religious reasons (and not bigotry), that are enough to affect our country's laws, why the double standard? It's inconsistent at best.
Originally Posted by MoppyT
The best revenge is living well. The second best revenge is fire ants.

Aren't most laws based on personal/religious beliefs? Why would this be so different? Since the beginning of time, man and woman have been joined in marriage, why change it's definition? Why try to get me, someone who doesn't believe in gay marriage, to accept this? People want to constantly say that Jane and Janice getting married won't affect me personally, but that's a lie. I would be forced to recognize/acknowledge the marriage in some form or fashion eventually.
Originally Posted by Jaguar Paw
Probably but they are not supposed to be here. It makes sense if it's done in an Islamic state or somewhere where govt is based on religion but not here. It makes us hypocrites when we criticize others.

I was sorta wondering this too. Sounds racist to me.
Originally Posted by Josephine
Yes, it really does.
Originally Posted by FieryCurls
It would only sound racist to me, if someone is against interracial relationships coming from a place of hate and bigotry. Amneris sounds like she is doing what she thinks is best for her and her family. It is a personal preference for her and she is not telling others who are in one it is wrong.

I think she mentioned her siblings have white partners, which I personally would not call interracial since their father is white.


Besides, there are quite a few people who say they prefer to date someone from their culture or religion because it makes it easier or whatnot. How is that any different from what Amneris is saying above? Just because she used race and not culture or religion?




Subbrock, does your sister really mean too many differences between races to have a functioning relationship?? It is not like each race is a different specie. LOL I think there are differences between ethnic groups that sometimes can make it difficult (e.g., having to explain things that comes is second nature in your culture. But, that does not have to be an issue, if you do not make it one. I personally prefer someone who thinks similar to me, which more often than not, he does not come from the same culture as me.




Back to the OP, what I do not get about the ban against gay marriages is it does not infringe on other people's rights to get married. Keep your personal preferences (in this case bigotry) out of laws. If you do not like same-sex marriages, then do not get one. Stop trying to deny other people rights.
Originally Posted by iara
LOL... he isn't white, but people tend to think so so it functions as if he is in terms of peoples' reactions etc.

Re: the OP - I think there are a lot of things that people may consider immoral for various reasons, but does that mean those things should automatically be illegal?

Don't you acknowledge a lot of things that may be immoral to you?

ie. If two unwed people have a child, don't you acknowledge that that is their child and those are the parents and the child deserves to have a good life, and the parents deserve support, even if you may not agree with the parents' choices?

So how is gay marriage or partnership different?
Get used to me. Black, confident, cocky; my name, not yours; my religion, not yours; my goals, my own; get used to me. -Muhammad Ali











I would be forced to recognize/acknowledge the marriage in some form or fashion eventually.
I don't like that the KKK exists, but I recognize and (begrudgingly) accept their right to assemble.

It's not okay to impede on someone else's rights just because you feel icky about making it into a law.
Originally Posted by gemini

Like I said, if it's up for me to vote on it, I will with no hesitation, which ofcourse is my right.


A vote against gay marriages is a vote FOR discrimination and inequality. I wish people would just own up to it. That they believe denying certain people certains rights, in a country who boast freedom for all, is a ok with them.


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I would be forced to recognize/acknowledge the marriage in some form or fashion eventually.
I don't like that the KKK exists, but I recognize and (begrudgingly) accept their right to assemble.

It's not okay to impede on someone else's rights just because you feel icky about making it into a law.
Originally Posted by gemini

Like I said, if it's up for me to vote on it, I will with no hesitation, which ofcourse is my right.
Originally Posted by Jaguar Paw
Yeah, but it is people like you who got it on the ballot in the first place.

IMO, human rights should never be voted on because some people think other people should not have rights to begin with.
You cannot invite someone to your house in the Hamptons and when she arrives, not let her stay. Tacky. Very Tacky. ~ East Village hipster.

People in Ward Three disdain three things: cleavage, hunting and dumb people who are richer than they are. ~ David Brooks


Once the number three, being the third number, be reached, then lobbest thou thy Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch towards thy foe, who, being naughty in my sight, shall snuff it. ~Armaments 2:9-21

A vote against gay marriages is a vote FOR discrimination and inequality. I wish people would just own up to it. That they believe denying certain people certains rights, in a country who boast freedom for all, is a ok with them.
Originally Posted by Trenell
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People want to constantly say that Jane and Janice getting married won't affect me personally, but that's a lie. I would be forced to recognize/acknowledge the marriage in some form or fashion eventually.
Originally Posted by Jaguar Paw
I hate to tell you this, but people will engage in gay relationships, short term, long term or non-legal marriages whether you acknowledge them or not.

And how exactly does acknowledging something effect your life negatively? And really do you have to? I mean, if you don't like it so much it's not like there's going to be a law that you have to have gay friends. You can choose to not be around it. People are just asking for the same right to choose like you whom you marry.

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