Queer As Rights - No Religion Allowed

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You are certainly entitled to your opinion and I totally respect it. I, for one, am not offended by it. But I am curious how your views factor into how you view your parents marriage, though. Many would consider them an interracial couple, simply based on their skin color and not knowing anything about their mixed heritage.
Originally Posted by medussa
That's a good question about my parents and I think that's partly WHY I feel the way I do... because I've had the opportunity to hear peoples' comments and see their reactions all my life and to experience first-hand the various misconceptions people have.

I do think that there are some equal partnerships between white and Black people where there is no power imbalance, definitely. But I think as the Black person getting into an interracial marriage, you're (gy) the one taking the risk that it may not be one of those.
Originally Posted by Amneris
I didn't know your parents were intrarracial. And although I respect and mostly agree with everything you said, I was wondering a little about your background as well. I wouldn't have exactly pegged you as black or completely black.

But it's all good.
You are certainly entitled to your opinion and I totally respect it. I, for one, am not offended by it. But I am curious how your views factor into how you view your parents marriage, though. Many would consider them an interracial couple, simply based on their skin color and not knowing anything about their mixed heritage.
Originally Posted by medussa
That's a good question about my parents and I think that's partly WHY I feel the way I do... because I've had the opportunity to hear peoples' comments and see their reactions all my life and to experience first-hand the various misconceptions people have.

I do think that there are some equal partnerships between white and Black people where there is no power imbalance, definitely. But I think as the Black person getting into an interracial marriage, you're (gy) the one taking the risk that it may not be one of those.
Originally Posted by Amneris
I didn't know your parents were intrarracial. And although I respect and mostly agree with everything you said, I was wondering a little about your background as well. I wouldn't have exactly pegged you as black or completely black.

But it's all good.
Originally Posted by Vagabond Davotchka

They are both mixed but Mama is predominantly Black and Papi is predominantly of European descent... and I am Black.
Get used to me. Black, confident, cocky; my name, not yours; my religion, not yours; my goals, my own; get used to me. -Muhammad Ali











[QUOTE=Amneris;903363]
I think she mentioned her siblings have white partners, which I personally would not call interracial since their father is white.


LOL... he isn't white, but people tend to think so so it functions as if he is in terms of peoples' reactions etc.
Originally Posted by iara
Hey, I am from South America where skin color determines race (all about what is on the outside). LOL

Your dad is primarily Cuban, right?
You cannot invite someone to your house in the Hamptons and when she arrives, not let her stay. Tacky. Very Tacky. ~ East Village hipster.

People in Ward Three disdain three things: cleavage, hunting and dumb people who are richer than they are. ~ David Brooks


Once the number three, being the third number, be reached, then lobbest thou thy Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch towards thy foe, who, being naughty in my sight, shall snuff it. ~Armaments 2:9-21

[quote=iara;903546]
I think she mentioned her siblings have white partners, which I personally would not call interracial since their father is white.


LOL... he isn't white, but people tend to think so so it functions as if he is in terms of peoples' reactions etc.
Originally Posted by iara
Hey, I am from South America where skin color determines race (all about what is on the outside). LOL

Your dad is primarily Cuban, right?
Originally Posted by Amneris
yup and as far as looks go you're right, he's considered white because he looks white.
Get used to me. Black, confident, cocky; my name, not yours; my religion, not yours; my goals, my own; get used to me. -Muhammad Ali











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A vote against gay marriages is a vote FOR discrimination and inequality. I wish people would just own up to it. That they believe denying certain people certains rights, in a country who boast freedom for all, is a ok with them.
Originally Posted by Trenell
I agree with this. And I also agree that allowing gays to marry or engage in all civil rights due to everyone will not affect me personally – so I would vote for it if it was put up to ballot.

I also want to address another argument I’ve heard about – the ‘slippery slope’ argument.

All gays males are not pedophiles and should not be lumped into a pedophile category. ANYONE who abuses a child should be punished. That does not mean everyone who abuses a child will be gay. That does not mean anyone who is gay will abuse a child.

People still do not and should not have a right to marry their animals. Animals can’t speak for themselves to involve themselves in any type of relationship with humans. But yes – you can marry your parrot if you parrot can say ‘I do.’
Good luck with that.

Incest will continue to be against the law and taboo. You can’t marry your blood relatives (momma, daddy, daughter, son, uncle, aunt, niece, nephew, sister, brother.) You can marry your 2nd, 3rd, 4th 5h cousin however many times removed. 2nd cousin marriages are legal in 24 states and anything beyond that is legal is all states.

Does the whole ‘ick’ and ‘ewww’ factor of the last two paragraphs count as legitimate reasons against the ‘slippery slope’ argument when to gay rights and marriage?

There has to be and will continue to be a legal age of consent for EVERYONE because jack@ss perverts (pedophiles) will probably try to marry a 5 year old if they can. So no, you (male or female) can not marry your 14 year sweetheart just because homosexuals got the right to do so.
amneris- i think your "issues" with interracial relationships have more to do with socio economics than race. i know you did acknowledge that it has alot to do with it as well, but i think youre underestimating just how much socioeconomics has to do with those issues.

Subbrock, does your sister really mean too many differences between races to have a functioning relationship?? It is not like each race is a different specie. LOL I think there are differences between ethnic groups that sometimes can make it difficult (e.g., having to explain things that comes is second nature in your culture. But, that does not have to be an issue, if you do not make it one. I personally prefer someone who thinks similar to me, which more often than not, he does not come from the same culture as me.
Originally Posted by iara
yes. she goes so far into saying that she doesnt even want her children to marry light skinned blacks because theyre too different. she believes that there is a huge difference between "dark skinned women" and "light skinned girls." those are her exact words so you can obviously gain a sense of whatim dealig with.


And how exactly does acknowledging something effect your life negatively? And really do you have to? I mean, if you don't like it so much it's not like there's going to be a law that you have to have gay friends. You can choose to not be around it. People are just asking for the same right to choose like you whom you marry.
i think the logic behind that train of thought (what others do in their personal lives does indeed effect others) is if the behavior is something that you dont agree with, and it can be seen as demeaning. this is a weak and very far-fetched example but say children were allowed to marry. i think it would effect the adults who have legitimate relationships if their marriages were considered equal to two 6 yr olds. once again, i know this is an absolutely ludicrous scenario but i was just using it for the purpose of explanation.
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Amneris, if you don't like the term "biracial," what are mixed raced people to you? Black, white, whatever race they look like? I've seen biracial children (1/2 black, 1/2 white) look dead-on white. I've seen people with one black grandparent (1/4 black) look white, black, or an obvious mix of both.

I have one black great grandparent. Black people will often tell me on first sight I appeared white or that sometimes they had some suspicions I was not white, but as they were around me more they knew so and figured I had black family much closer in my family tree. I don't feel I'm considered black though. I've always identified as white. I never was around a group of non-white people at any given time until I interned a large company in college. Even then there was just a handful of black people that stayed mostly to themselves. They brought me into certain conversations and approached me in a different way than they would white people, but I felt in a way that since there are so few minorities in this area, they were sort of reaching for anyone with a touch of blackness, if that makes any sense. So, I felt almost challenged, that my white identity was questioned or denied but I was still not fully accepted by them as black. My point is I know what it feels like to be in the middle, and don't like the idea that everything is or should be black or white so to speak. I'm mixed up at any rate and hope what I said makes some sense since it's been a really strange day and I'm tired.

I also hope your disdain of interracial relationships doesn't trickle down to the products of these relationships. No one can help who they are or what they look like.
yes. she goes so far into saying that she doesnt even want her children to marry light skinned blacks because theyre too different. she believes that there is a huge difference between "dark skinned women" and "light skinned girls." those are her exact words so you can obviously gain a sense of whatim dealig with.
Originally Posted by subbrock
Oh Boy! I know she is your sister and all, but I thought we were dealing with someone rational. LOL
You cannot invite someone to your house in the Hamptons and when she arrives, not let her stay. Tacky. Very Tacky. ~ East Village hipster.

People in Ward Three disdain three things: cleavage, hunting and dumb people who are richer than they are. ~ David Brooks


Once the number three, being the third number, be reached, then lobbest thou thy Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch towards thy foe, who, being naughty in my sight, shall snuff it. ~Armaments 2:9-21

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Last edited by Vagabond Davotchka; 03-12-2009 at 03:01 PM.
Amneris, if you don't like the term "biracial," what are mixed raced people to you? Black, white, whatever race they look like? I've seen biracial children (1/2 black, 1/2 white) look dead-on white. I've seen people with one black grandparent (1/4 black) look white, black, or an obvious mix of both.

I have one black great grandparent. Black people will often tell me on first sight I appeared white or that sometimes they had some suspicions I was not white, but as they were around me more they knew so and figured I had black family much closer in my family tree. I don't feel I'm considered black though. I've always identified as white. I never was around a group of non-white people at any given time until I interned a large company in college. Even then there was just a handful of black people that stayed mostly to themselves. They brought me into certain conversations and approached me in a different way than they would white people, but I felt in a way that since there are so few minorities in this area, they were sort of reaching for anyone with a touch of blackness, if that makes any sense. So, I felt almost challenged, that my white identity was questioned or denied but I was still not fully accepted by them as black. My point is I know what it feels like to be in the middle, and don't like the idea that everything is or should be black or white so to speak. I'm mixed up at any rate and hope what I said makes some sense since it's been a really strange day and I'm tired.

I also hope your disdain of interracial relationships doesn't trickle down to the products of these relationships. No one can help who they are or what they look like.
Originally Posted by Adrina

FYI: I don't have "disdain" for them and I am the "product" of race mixing myself.

People can identify as whatever they want, but when the term biracial is used for a person with a white and a Black parent, I personally don't care for it. In my opinion, they are Black, (and they are also mixed race) and the term "biracial" is just a way of trying to get away from being Black.
ie. Barack Obama identifies as Black, the Black community identifies him as being Black, he's worked in the Black community for years, and yet people persist in calling him biracial because maybe they are uncomfortable with a Black president or they want to "take credit" for him all of a sudden now he's President.

With one Black great grandparent, I don't think it is a big deal to call yourself white, or if you want to call yourself mixed race that's up to you.
Get used to me. Black, confident, cocky; my name, not yours; my religion, not yours; my goals, my own; get used to me. -Muhammad Ali











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yes. she goes so far into saying that she doesnt even want her children to marry light skinned blacks because theyre too different. she believes that there is a huge difference between "dark skinned women" and "light skinned girls." those are her exact words so you can obviously gain a sense of whatim dealig with.
Originally Posted by subbrock
Your sister is dark skinned? Sounds like she has issues with insecurity, black colorism, and a few others. That explains a few things. That’s a common issue and common response in the BC.



And how exactly does acknowledging something effect your life negatively? And really do you have to? I mean, if you don't like it so much it's not like there's going to be a law that you have to have gay friends. You can choose to not be around it. People are just asking for the same right to choose like you whom you marry.
i think the logic behind that train of thought (what others do in their personal lives does indeed effect others) is if the behavior is something that you dont agree with, and it can be seen as demeaning. this is a weak and very far-fetched example but say children were allowed to marry. i think it would effect the adults who have legitimate relationships if their marriages were considered equal to two 6 yr olds. once again, i know this is an absolutely ludicrous scenario but i was just using it for the purpose of explanation.
I get it. Thanks for the analogy that explains a lot. So heteros see their relationship and the norm, the stardard (or above standard), above level, and unique. If homos got that right, then it would be normalizing homo relationships to put them par with heteros – and they don’t want that. That explains a lot of other things as well, like the issue with IR relationships. Black marriages were once seen as less valid, less legitimate, and less important than white marriages. So if a white married a black, then a white person would be lowering their standards, importance and validity and bringing black people (and by extension, black marriages) on par to white marriages.

Last edited by Vagabond Davotchka; 03-12-2009 at 04:45 PM.
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FYI: I don't have "disdain" for them and I am the "product" of race mixing myself.

People can identify as whatever they want, but when the term biracial is used for a person with a white and a Black parent, I personally don't care for it. In my opinion, they are Black, (and they are also mixed race) and the term "biracial" is just a way of trying to get away from being Black.
ie. Barack Obama identifies as Black, the Black community identifies him as being Black, he's worked in the Black community for years, and yet people persist in calling him biracial because maybe they are uncomfortable with a Black president or they want to "take credit" for him all of a sudden now he's President.

With one Black great grandparent, I don't think it is a big deal to call yourself white, or if you want to call yourself mixed race that's up to you.
Originally Posted by Amneris
Oh ok, I understand that. Thanks.
FYI: I don't have "disdain" for them and I am the "product" of race mixing myself.

People can identify as whatever they want, but when the term biracial is used for a person with a white and a Black parent, I personally don't care for it. In my opinion, they are Black, (and they are also mixed race) and the term "biracial" is just a way of trying to get away from being Black.
ie. Barack Obama identifies as Black, the Black community identifies him as being Black, he's worked in the Black community for years, and yet people persist in calling him biracial because maybe they are uncomfortable with a Black president or they want to "take credit" for him all of a sudden now he's President.

With one Black great grandparent, I don't think it is a big deal to call yourself white, or if you want to call yourself mixed race that's up to you.
Originally Posted by Amneris
i dont see that at all (to the bolded). ive seen biracial people that have been shunned by a lot of a black and white communities so they call themselves biracial so they can identify with SOMEONE. oftentimes i dont hear them talk about their race at all...
FYI: I don't have "disdain" for them and I am the "product" of race mixing myself.

People can identify as whatever they want, but when the term biracial is used for a person with a white and a Black parent, I personally don't care for it. In my opinion, they are Black, (and they are also mixed race) and the term "biracial" is just a way of trying to get away from being Black.
ie. Barack Obama identifies as Black, the Black community identifies him as being Black, he's worked in the Black community for years, and yet people persist in calling him biracial because maybe they are uncomfortable with a Black president or they want to "take credit" for him all of a sudden now he's President.

With one Black great grandparent, I don't think it is a big deal to call yourself white, or if you want to call yourself mixed race that's up to you.
Originally Posted by Amneris
i dont see that at all (to the bolded). ive seen biracial people that have been shunned by a lot of a black and white communities so they call themselves biracial so they can identify with SOMEONE. oftentimes i dont hear them talk about their race at all...
Originally Posted by Sleigh

It's unlikely that the Black community would shun a mixed race person because they are mixed and not allow their participation in the community. USUALLY that is a misconception, often because those people have been fed effed-up ideas by their parents or others. The Black community has ALWAYS been inclusive and had plenty of people who are "mixed." Some of the greatest figures in Black history had a white parent or were generally mixed. If anything, mixed/light-skinned people have been privileged in the Black community - there's no history of exclusion as there is with white people excluding Blacks and including "biracials" in that. But I have actually seen some "biracial" activists want to re-classify people like Frederick Douglass and W. E. B. DuBois and Langston Hughes as "mixed-race heroes" which is an insult to those people and to the Black community as a whole.

I think people who say they have to be "biracial" because Blacks don't accept them are USUALLY (not always but usually) the ones who are uncomfortable in the Black community. Sometimes they didn't grow up with their Black parent and don't know the history or the group dynamics. Sometimes they've been taught since birth that they are "different."

Anyway... this is now a race thread so I'm sorry for that - if people want to continue this, maybe it should be another thread.
Get used to me. Black, confident, cocky; my name, not yours; my religion, not yours; my goals, my own; get used to me. -Muhammad Ali











i dont see that at all (to the bolded). ive seen biracial people that have been shunned by a lot of a black and white communities so they call themselves biracial so they can identify with SOMEONE. oftentimes i dont hear them talk about their race at all...
Originally Posted by Sleigh
There is a biracial group at my university. 95% of the members are Asian and another race (usually white).

It is kind of annoying when people assume you mean black and some other race when you say you are biracial or mixed.
You cannot invite someone to your house in the Hamptons and when she arrives, not let her stay. Tacky. Very Tacky. ~ East Village hipster.

People in Ward Three disdain three things: cleavage, hunting and dumb people who are richer than they are. ~ David Brooks


Once the number three, being the third number, be reached, then lobbest thou thy Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch towards thy foe, who, being naughty in my sight, shall snuff it. ~Armaments 2:9-21

i dont see that at all (to the bolded). ive seen biracial people that have been shunned by a lot of a black and white communities so they call themselves biracial so they can identify with SOMEONE. oftentimes i dont hear them talk about their race at all...
Originally Posted by Sleigh
There is a biracial group at my university. 95% of the members are Asian and another race (usually white).

It is kind of annoying when people assume you mean black and some other race when you say you are biracial or mixed.
Originally Posted by iara

True. I think I said I was specifically referring to Black-white relationships.

I will say I am mixed and people assume I mean Black and white too... but I am not JUST Black and white (I am also Asian and aboriginal) and they also assume I have one Black parent and one white parent, which I don't, and that my mother is white and father is Black, which they are not.

I actually don't really like or believe in racial categories as a whole. I use them more in terms of culture, history, social status etc. than any inherent racial differences (I don't believe that those exist.) I'd like to see us not need them any more - but right now we do need them in order to name our social inequalities. I think that further messing things up by labelling people "biracial" does not help.
Get used to me. Black, confident, cocky; my name, not yours; my religion, not yours; my goals, my own; get used to me. -Muhammad Ali











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It's unlikely that the Black community would shun a mixed race person because they are mixed and not allow their participation in the community. USUALLY that is a misconception, often because those people have been fed effed-up ideas by their parents or others. The Black community has ALWAYS been inclusive and had plenty of people who are "mixed." Some of the greatest figures in Black history had a white parent or were generally mixed. If anything, mixed/light-skinned people have been privileged in the Black community - there's no history of exclusion as there is with white people excluding Blacks and including "biracials" in that. But I have actually seen some "biracial" activists want to re-classify people like Frederick Douglass and W. E. B. DuBois and Langston Hughes as "mixed-race heroes" which is an insult to those people and to the Black community as a whole.

I think people who say they have to be "biracial" because Blacks don't accept them are USUALLY (not always but usually) the ones who are uncomfortable in the Black community. Sometimes they didn't grow up with their Black parent and don't know the history or the group dynamics. Sometimes they've been taught since birth that they are "different."

.....I actually don't really like or believe in racial categories as a whole. I use them more in terms of culture, history, social status etc. than any inherent racial differences (I don't believe that those exist.) I'd like to see us not need them any more - but right now we do need them in order to name our social inequalities. I think that further messing things up by labelling people "biracial" does not help.
Understand. And I agree. But why a reclassification? Why not accept these people as 'black' heroes who are 'biracial'? That is what is being accepted about Barack Obama.

Starting another thread about this through is a losing battle in terms of discussion, believe me. In the 10 years I been netting and discussing, I've had tons of discussions about this and it always turns out the same way (the main diff between discussing this at predom black boards and predom white boards is that you are called 'racist' way less often at predom black boards).

As soon as you first mentioned that whole biracial and IR thing, it was like throwing a socket wrench into the discussion, and even tho I agree and have these discussions plenty of times before, you have stated your premise more precisely and elegantly than I. I just lose patience with the whole thing and continue to think what I wanna think while allowing others to define themselves however they see fit. To me if you look black - you're black. If you say you're black - you're black (no matter how you look).

but I am not JUST Black and white (I am also Asian and aboriginal) and they also assume I have one Black parent and one white parent, which I don't, and that my mother is white and father is Black, which they are not.
Originally Posted by Amneris
Aborginal as in 'australian?' I know what aboriginal means - it means the group that was there first or before - which can include Native Americans or the 'Indians' of South American, Mexico, and the Caribeans (like the Taino). But as a group classification, the Australian Aborigines are the only group I know to use that as term.

an aside to the OT - is it true that if you are black, and you can register with a NA tribe and decide to do that, you lose you racial status as black?

I know a black woman with an NA grandfather. I ask her why doesn't she register with that native tribe and she would be entitled to whatever benefits that might garner. And she told me that should she do that, she would lose her racial status as 'Black' and be 'Indian' - like losing your american status should you become a citizen of another country that doesn't offer dual citizenship (another thing I just recently learned about).
As long as the thread is leaving the topic....My grandmother was raised to consider herself black. Her mother was bi-racial (black/white) and her father was white. Back in the day, her mother was consider black and a black woman could only give birth to a black baby, no matter who the father was, so black (colored) was put on her birth certificate.
i think, what im trying to say is...

i had no idea so many people we still against interracial marriages.

you know that's what the kkk believes, right? that we're all different colors of the rainbow and that the rainbow colors shouldnt mix.

amneris, you said it nicely - and i see where you're coming from - just realize how it can come across to other people.
if someone wants to bring our race related guanos, i'll gladly follow. but until then, heres what i have to say:

oh yeah, my sister is crazy when it comes to race relations. and her thoughts are entirely shaped by the fact that she is a dark skinned black woman. and she resents me alot for being "light skinned" with "good hair."

as far as black/white children identifiying as biracial...i cant stand when someone doesnt get why there is a need to be categorized as biracial. and usually when someone says those things, they are not the product of black/white parents, so i can excuse the ignorance based on that. but i dont believe in the one drop rule. i see why it was enacted during slavery and how some people use it to be a devisve tool, so i get the essence of what youre saying amneris. but, being the mother of a black/white child i simply couldnt fathom identifying her only as black. and it not just based on her appearcne, which is a pretty good reason alone. but i would never disrespect her father by denying him. shes his child, with his white blood running through her veins. he has a family history that is hers as well. hell her name (first, middle, and last) are all family names from his side. hes been there everyday of her life and to say, "oh well mom is black so that trumps 50% of who you are" is crazy. i think the greatest part the 21st century is that you are allowed to be who you are. going back to the OP, crazy right?, that man identified as a gay black man in america. he doesnt have to choose just one of those categories to pacify others. you can fit in more than one box, and its okay.
as far as growing up and being told youre "different," i dont think there is anything wrong with that. but pretending like the kid is just black is kind of like sticking your head in the sand. im the product of two black parents and the majority of the time, i do get told by the black community that im different. im not a real or regular black person. big deal. i still know im black and identify as such, but there are different kinds of black and its okay to acknowledge that. to say that "the black community has ALWAYS been inclusive" when it comes to biracials or any other kind of "mixing' is a straight up lie. countless variations of black people can attest to the fact that they have been shunned or slighted in some way because they are a variation on black. i could go on but i realize that this rant is getting long, so i'll stop now.

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