View Poll Results: What do you think about conscientious objection?
Job abandonment and for good reason. 5 23.81%
Job abandonment and for no good reason. 4 19.05%
Traitor. 2 9.52%
Not sure. 2 9.52%
Not job abandonment at all regardless of the reason behind it. 8 38.10%
Voters: 21. You may not vote on this poll

Conscientious objection

I know of an instance where a military recruiter came on the high school campus, talked to a student and took that student off the campus. The student signed up and later informed his parents. Is this common in other places?
Maudie
If they are 18 they can sign up without parental permission.
Better everyone think your a fool, than to open your mouth and prove them right.

Perception is not reality.

http://public.fotki.com/hmiklos
Imagine if no one signed up for the military and everyone who was drafted fled the country or became a conscientious objector. War would either end, or the politicians and military leadership would have to fight it themselves. Or maybe they would try to enslave people from other nations to fight....
Originally Posted by Amneris
Thank you John Lennon.

Now - imagine someone invading your country and no one being there to defend you.

Originally Posted by three rivers curly
Whew! That was scary. Now I know how the people of Iraq must feel.

"In the depth of winter, I finally learned that within me there lay an invincible summer."

4a, mbl, low porosity, normal thickness, fine hair.
I think it's job abandonment but for a good reason.

"In the depth of winter, I finally learned that within me there lay an invincible summer."

4a, mbl, low porosity, normal thickness, fine hair.
Imagine if no one signed up for the military and everyone who was drafted fled the country or became a conscientious objector. War would either end, or the politicians and military leadership would have to fight it themselves. Or maybe they would try to enslave people from other nations to fight....
Originally Posted by Amneris
Thank you John Lennon.

Now - imagine someone invading your country and no one being there to defend you.

Originally Posted by three rivers curly
Whew! That was scary. Now I know how the people of Iraq must feel.
Originally Posted by curlyarca
So true, girl....
Get used to me. Black, confident, cocky; my name, not yours; my religion, not yours; my goals, my own; get used to me. -Muhammad Ali











Pssssstttt....Soldiers don't choose their orders....they just follow them....



it is in the job description...[/i]
Better everyone think your a fool, than to open your mouth and prove them right.

Perception is not reality.

http://public.fotki.com/hmiklos
Pssssstttt....Soldiers don't choose their orders....they just follow them....



it is in the job description...[/i]
Originally Posted by three rivers curly
A time-honoured excuse - "I was just following orders" - and not just in the army.

If someone believes the orders that they are being given are right and can agree with everything they are being asked to do, then by all means, do it and face the consequences, but if someone believes that the orders are wrong, good for them for thinking for themself and deciding not to do it. I don't think someone should ever do something they know is wrong because "they signed up for it" or "they are following orders."
Get used to me. Black, confident, cocky; my name, not yours; my religion, not yours; my goals, my own; get used to me. -Muhammad Ali











If they are 18 they can sign up without parental permission.
Originally Posted by three rivers curly
This is true.
Maudie
Yes, Amneris. But, again this brings us back around to our point. If you think you will be unable to fulfill the duties of your job as a soldier, then you should probably not voluntarily sign up for the job.

Are you seeing the pattern yet? The current military status in the US is voluntary.

Voluntary as defined by Word Reference.com

voluntary
of your own free will or design; not forced or compelled; "man is a voluntary agent"; "participation was voluntary"; "voluntary manslaughter"; "voluntary generosity in times of disaster"; "voluntary social workers"; "a voluntary confession"
Better everyone think your a fool, than to open your mouth and prove them right.

Perception is not reality.

http://public.fotki.com/hmiklos
Yes, Amneris. But, again this brings us back around to our point. If you think you will be unable to fulfill the duties of your job as a soldier, then you should probably not voluntarily sign up for the job.

Are you seeing the pattern yet? The current military status in the US is voluntary.

Voluntary as defined by Word Reference.com

voluntary
of your own free will or design; not forced or compelled; "man is a voluntary agent"; "participation was voluntary"; "voluntary manslaughter"; "voluntary generosity in times of disaster"; "voluntary social workers"; "a voluntary confession"
Originally Posted by three rivers curly

Perhaps someone signed up years ago not realizing that an ILLEGAL WAR would be waged. Or they signed up for the NATIONAL GUARD thinking they would be helping in natural disasters and stuff and then got deployed to the ILLEGAL WAR. Or they started out thinking they could be a soldier, they were patriotic etc. etc. and then realized they could not stomach invading other countries and KILLING CIVILIANS. Who knows? I think people are allowed to change their minds when they realize they made bad decisions.
Get used to me. Black, confident, cocky; my name, not yours; my religion, not yours; my goals, my own; get used to me. -Muhammad Ali











Perhaps someone signed up years ago not realizing that an ILLEGAL WAR would be waged. Or they signed up for the NATIONAL GUARD thinking they would be helping in natural disasters and stuff and then got deployed to the ILLEGAL WAR. Or they started out thinking they could be a soldier, they were patriotic etc. etc. and then realized they could not stomach invading other countries and KILLING CIVILIANS. Who knows? I think people are allowed to change their minds when they realize they made bad decisions.
Originally Posted by Amneris
Seriously, if you signed up for the National Guard or any other branch of the military without realizing you could be assigned to combat missions that were less than 100% perfect in rationale and execution, you're an idiot and probably too stupid to be in the military in the first place.
Perhaps someone signed up years ago not realizing that an ILLEGAL WAR would be waged. Or they signed up for the NATIONAL GUARD thinking they would be helping in natural disasters and stuff and then got deployed to the ILLEGAL WAR. Or they started out thinking they could be a soldier, they were patriotic etc. etc. and then realized they could not stomach invading other countries and KILLING CIVILIANS. Who knows? I think people are allowed to change their minds when they realize they made bad decisions.
Originally Posted by Amneris
Seriously, if you signed up for the National Guard or any other branch of the military without realizing you could be assigned to combat missions that were less than 100% perfect in rationale and execution, you're an idiot and probably too stupid to be in the military in the first place.
Originally Posted by Lucille
This is an interesting point. An 18 year old boy/man may not have all of his ducks in a row yet. 18 is not a magic age that guarantees instant maturity, foresight and decision making ability.
Maudie
This is an interesting point. An 18 year old boy/man may not have all of his ducks in a row yet. 18 is not a magic age that guarantees instant maturity, foresight and decision making ability.
Originally Posted by Maudie
No. But we do have minimum intelligence requirements in the military, and if by the age of 18 you haven't demonstrated such a very basic level of intelligence, you probably don't actually meet that requirement.
This is an interesting point. An 18 year old boy/man may not have all of his ducks in a row yet. 18 is not a magic age that guarantees instant maturity, foresight and decision making ability.
Originally Posted by Maudie
No. But we do have minimum intelligence requirements in the military, and if by the age of 18 you haven't demonstrated such a very basic level of intelligence, you probably don't actually meet that requirement.
Originally Posted by Lucille
OK, I'll give you that. Point taken. But I would submit that it's probably also a good idea to have maximum intelligence requirements, because if there were too many highly intelligent, free thinking people in the army, I doubt they WOULD be following orders "just because".
Get used to me. Black, confident, cocky; my name, not yours; my religion, not yours; my goals, my own; get used to me. -Muhammad Ali











Quick question: Do the recruiters go through some basic questions to make sure that signing up is not just an emotional blip on the screen? I would hope they would try to find out if the high school student was not only "basically intelligent", but truly had a conviction to join the military. Seeing the world, getting away from home, don't know what to do after I graduate, free college, etc. don't seem to be good trade-offs to sign up for possible maiming or death.
Maudie
What if it is just UNJUST wars you object to? A soldier may have joined the military having full faith in their gov't to do what is right. But what if the people in charge are mistaken? If you join the military believing that all war is wrong, your judgement is questionable. If you join the military, ready to defend your country, but object to fighting in unjust wars and in wars that do not directly defend your country, I don't have a problem with it.

ETA: I consider it job abandonment with good reason. I see it no differently from being asked by my boss to do something that technically fits into my job description, but that I have moral objections to. I don't expect to keep my job.
3c/4a

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