View Poll Results: What do you think about conscientious objection?
Job abandonment and for good reason. 5 23.81%
Job abandonment and for no good reason. 4 19.05%
Traitor. 2 9.52%
Not sure. 2 9.52%
Not job abandonment at all regardless of the reason behind it. 8 38.10%
Voters: 21. You may not vote on this poll

Conscientious objection

What do you think about Kevin Benderman and his wife Monica?

I just saw an anti-war group meeting on CSPAN. Monic Benderman spoke for herself and for her husband in front for a congressional panel or something on Thursday.Cynthia McKinney (that would be "the Tina Turner and the electric fence crack whore who needs more product in her hair" congresswoman ) was there as well as several former soldiers and of course the press.



eta links:
http://www.antiwar.com/orig/benderma...articleid=4455

http://www.topia.net/kevinbenderman.html

http://www.bendermantimeline.com/

"In the depth of winter, I finally learned that within me there lay an invincible summer."

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I couldn't imagine anyone having a problem with that. Some people don't believe that war is the answer and I'm one of them.
I can imagine why some people have a problem with it. This is the reason:

Enlisting in the military is a voluntary action. People join for any number of reasons. He admitted that he reenlisted after he faced loss with this subcontracting business in 2000. That is understandable. He probably had no idea that war was a possibility when he reentered. A lot of people had no clue what was going to happen after Sept 11.

I don't know the statistics but I think it is pretty safe to say that many of the people who are deployed to Iraq or Afghanistan are not eager to be there and wish they could be back home going to their regular military jobs again. In war, they see horrible things and have to deal with situations we can only imagine. I have no problem with him making an objection to the war but he should not expect to continue on in the military receiving the same pay, rank and privileges that others receive while he is refusing to do his duty.
I don't know what I think about this. I think I can understand conscientious objection in a situation with a draft, but not in a situation where you enlisted voluntarily. When you join the military you KNOW there is the possibility of war. It would be like taking a job then quitting when they actually ask you to do the whole job, not just the good parts; or quitting school because they tell you to do homework.
"I don't know! I don't know why I did it, I don't know why I enjoyed it, and I don't know why I'll do it again!" -BART SIMPSON
I don't know what I think about this. I think I can understand conscientious objection in a situation with a draft, but not in a situation where you enlisted voluntarily. When you join the military you KNOW there is the possibility of war. It would be like taking a job then quitting when they actually ask you to do the whole job, not just the good parts; or quitting school because they tell you to do homework.
Originally Posted by Who Me?
I completely disagree. People are allowed to change their minds.

Imagine what you are suggesting. Because someone voluntarily joined the military, they are not morally obligated (and should not be legally obligated) to participate in wars that they feel are unjust.

There are so many issues here. One is that, people are allowed to change their minds. If one came to believe that killing of any sort is wrong, then I for one cannot imagine forcing them to participate in killing other human beings because they happened to sign up to join the military some years earlier.

Secondly, when we are talking about this specific war which the country was duped into participating in....the idea of being a CO is greatly strengthened. What the government is currently asking of our enlisted men in regards to this specific war is above and beyond what any of them signed up for...they signed up to protect our country from foriegn and domestic enemies....they did not sign up to participate in preemptive strikes against soveriegn countries.
On Rush Limbaugh: Rather than engage in the admittedly difficult task of justifying GOP policies rationally, the key to Limbaugh’s success is attracting an audience that actually yearns to be lied to.

I have no problem with him making an objection to the war but he should not expect to continue on in the military receiving the same pay, rank and privileges that others receive while he is refusing to do his duty.
Originally Posted by sariroo
I totally agree with you!

What I'm wondering is why he chose to reenlist after he was in OIF1 w/ 4ID?? I didn't have time to read all the article as Bets has been a wild girl today.
Slinky's rule for NC.com:

I suppose I can't judge you because you married a serviceman and it is wartime. Boo hoo. You must be loney sitting at home with nothing else to do but pick on people. Why don't you go masterbate again?

Imagine what you are suggesting. Because someone voluntarily joined the military, they are not morally obligated (and should not be legally obligated) to participate in wars that they feel are unjust.
Originally Posted by *Ani*
Well, actually - it is sort of in the job description. They had a chance to consider their morals before they voluntarily signed up.

I agree that they have the right to object to the war that they are fighting. I agree that they have a right to disagree with what they are being sent to do. However - it is part of the job. The military fights wars. Just because there wasn't a war when they signed up, does not mean that one couldn't start at any time. We can't agree whether or not to wear pantyhose on this site - you seriously expect hundreds of thousands of soldiers to agree on the need to go to war?

My brother has been to Iraq. He will be going back. He disagrees with this war - but he is doing the job that he agreed to do. And yes - I understand the psychological problems that come with the job. He and many of his fellow soldiers started their counseling while they were still over there. He will be damaged for the rest of his life.
Better everyone think your a fool, than to open your mouth and prove them right.

Perception is not reality.

http://public.fotki.com/hmiklos

Imagine what you are suggesting. Because someone voluntarily joined the military, they are not morally obligated (and should not be legally obligated) to participate in wars that they feel are unjust.
Originally Posted by *Ani*
Well, actually - it is sort of in the job description. They had a chance to consider their morals before they voluntarily signed up.

I agree that they have the right to object to the war that they are fighting. I agree that they have a right to disagree with what they are being sent to do. However - it is part of the job. The military fights wars. Just because there wasn't a war when they signed up, does not mean that one couldn't start at any time. We can't agree whether or not to wear pantyhose on this site - you seriously expect hundreds of thousands of soldiers to agree on the need to go to war?

My brother has been to Iraq. He will be going back. He disagrees with this war - but he is doing the job that he agreed to do. And yes - I understand the psychological problems that come with the job. He and many of his fellow soldiers started their counseling while they were still over there. He will be damaged for the rest of his life.
Originally Posted by three rivers curly

You are talking about taking another human being's life. I dont care how many contracts were signed....in terms of self actualization and maturity, most people would have trouble following through with the ultimate immoral act (killing another human being) just because of some piece of paper.

Beyond all of that, this particular war is not what anyone signed up for. It is illegal and unprecedented and every person of conscience should be objecting to it. Once again, US military personell are charged with protecting us from foriegn and domestic enemy invaders and threats...Iraq was not a threat to us and the administration knew it when they led us into this illegal war. On that basis alone, the obligation of any individual enlisted to fight this war is questionable at best.

this issue is not quite a simple as some of you would like to make it when you consider all of the facts including the coercion that is involved in "recruiting" many young people for the military who rightfully feel that they have no other choice for a decent life than military service.

When we start seeing the sons and daughters of the richest Americans signing up for military service as enlisted persons...then we can talk about how voluntary it is.
On Rush Limbaugh: Rather than engage in the admittedly difficult task of justifying GOP policies rationally, the key to Limbaugh’s success is attracting an audience that actually yearns to be lied to.
I don't know what I think about this. I think I can understand conscientious objection in a situation with a draft, but not in a situation where you enlisted voluntarily. When you join the military you KNOW there is the possibility of war. It would be like taking a job then quitting when they actually ask you to do the whole job, not just the good parts; or quitting school because they tell you to do homework.
Originally Posted by Who Me?
I completely disagree. People are allowed to change their minds.

Imagine what you are suggesting. Because someone voluntarily joined the military, they are not morally obligated (and should not be legally obligated) to participate in wars that they feel are unjust.

There are so many issues here. One is that, people are allowed to change their minds. If one came to believe that killing of any sort is wrong, then I for one cannot imagine forcing them to participate in killing other human beings because they happened to sign up to join the military some years earlier.

Secondly, when we are talking about this specific war which the country was duped into participating in....the idea of being a CO is greatly strengthened. What the government is currently asking of our enlisted men in regards to this specific war is above and beyond what any of them signed up for...they signed up to protect our country from foriegn and domestic enemies....they did not sign up to participate in preemptive strikes against soveriegn countries.
Originally Posted by *Ani*
When you join the military you know that you may be called upon to go to war. That is part of it. You can hope and pray that it doesn't happen, but you have to accept that it is a possibility. By joining the military, I believe they they are agreeing to kill other human beings whom the government deems necessary. I really believe that it is part of the job description. So, going to war with Iraq, or any other nation, is EXACTLY what they signed up for.

I agree with basically everything you've said about the war. But I still believe it is the military's responsibility to do what the government tells them to do....it goes to the fundamentals of how a person can support the troops but not support the war. I also agree with you about recruiting practices being....immoral. This is why I can't just say "consciensious objection is wrong".

If I was in the military I don't believe I could fight the war in Iraq, and therefore I would be a conscientious objector.....but the fact is that I would never consider being in the military. So I expect other people who feel the same way I do would not be in the military either.
"I don't know! I don't know why I did it, I don't know why I enjoyed it, and I don't know why I'll do it again!" -BART SIMPSON
So I expect other people who feel the same way I do would not be in the military either.
Yes, but a lot of 18 year old kids dont know what sort of person they are at that early stage in their life.

If they are called upon years later to do something that they now know is immoral, I cant support forcing them to do it.
On Rush Limbaugh: Rather than engage in the admittedly difficult task of justifying GOP policies rationally, the key to Limbaugh’s success is attracting an audience that actually yearns to be lied to.
So I expect other people who feel the same way I do would not be in the military either.
Yes, but a lot of 18 year old kids dont know what sort of person they are at that early stage in their life.

If they are called upon years later to do something that they now know is immoral, I cant support forcing them to do it.
Originally Posted by *Ani*
Not all members of the military sign up at 18 - my brother was 32.

Do you honestly believe that every person in history who has been in a war, believed in what they were doing? Come on. Not to mention, with modern fighting (meaning non-hand to hand combat) casualties are considerably lower than they were even as recently as Vietnam.

Yes - every life has meaning. No - no one deserves to die in such a way. But - war is a reality of human existence, look at some of the neighborhoods in our own country. People get killed everyday for the wrong reasons.

At least they know what they are getting into when they sign up. If they aren't ready to die, then they shouldn't sign up. I know that sounds cold, and harsh - but this is the military not charm school. It isn't community service to look good on your resume. It isn't an after school job to get money for school.
Better everyone think your a fool, than to open your mouth and prove them right.

Perception is not reality.

http://public.fotki.com/hmiklos
Sometimes long held convictions change. For many reasons, we come to a point in our lives where we say, "I no longer believe that" or "I now believe this". I think this is part of growing up and developing maturity. Sgt. Benderman's convictions have changed since he has enlisted and he has given his reasons. However, a change of heart/conviction also sometimes demands that a price be paid.
Maudie
You are talking about taking another human being's life. I dont care how many contracts were signed....in terms of self actualization and maturity, most people would have trouble following through with the ultimate immoral act (killing another human being) just because of some piece of paper.
I have a close friend who was released from the navy as a CO during the first Gulf War. He'd been junior ROTC all through high school, was ROTC through his 4 years at Notre Dame, but after he'd been active duty for about a year, they decided to train him as a weapons officer. It was the decision, his ultimately realizing that he could not morally ever fire a weapon that could take a human life, that caused him to apply for CO. Before that, he knew he had moral issues with it, but wasn't ever in a situation where he would be personal responsible for such an action. He was already at sea, and all his shipmates knew about his CO application and he was completely ostracized and harrassed. Luckily he got out on the first try, which is unusual. He also paid back the 3 years' worth of tuition at Notre Dame (to the tune of over 40K) for each year of active duty that he ended up not serving. He went through hell to get out, but he knew it's what he had to do.
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Agree with everything Ani wrote.

Someone posted here a while back that military recruiters can and do lie to potential recruits, telling them they'll never have to go to war and so on. There are also all those cases of military recruiters signing up kids in inner city schools (mainly black and Latino kids from poor families) before they are even out of high school, promising college and a better life. How can you make a clear judgment about whether you are prepared to take the lives of other human beings under those circumstances?

If someone sits down and actually thinks for themself long and hard about what they are being asked to do and decides that it goes against their moral and/or religious convictions, then they should always have the right to be a conscientious objector, even if they weren't previously.

Imagine if no one signed up for the military and everyone who was drafted fled the country or became a conscientious objector. War would either end, or the politicians and military leadership would have to fight it themselves. Or maybe they would try to enslave people from other nations to fight....
Get used to me. Black, confident, cocky; my name, not yours; my religion, not yours; my goals, my own; get used to me. -Muhammad Ali











Imagine if no one signed up for the military and everyone who was drafted fled the country or became a conscientious objector. War would either end, or the politicians and military leadership would have to fight it themselves. Or maybe they would try to enslave people from other nations to fight....
Originally Posted by Amneris
Thank you John Lennon.

Now - imagine someone invading your country and no one being there to defend you.


No one like war. It hasn't stopped in 2000 years and it isn't going to stop today. You're really big on tradition Amneris - war is tradition - it's in the bible.
Better everyone think your a fool, than to open your mouth and prove them right.

Perception is not reality.

http://public.fotki.com/hmiklos
Imagine if no one signed up for the military and everyone who was drafted fled the country or became a conscientious objector. War would either end, or the politicians and military leadership would have to fight it themselves. Or maybe they would try to enslave people from other nations to fight....
Originally Posted by Amneris
Thank you John Lennon.

Now - imagine someone invading your country and no one being there to defend you.


No one like war. It hasn't stopped in 2000 years and it isn't going to stop today. You're really big on tradition Amneris - war is tradition - it's in the bible.
Originally Posted by three rivers curly
I am not big on traditions that are barbaric, cruel or immoral. Nor is everything in the Bible condoned by God. Rape, murder and adultery are also there, to name a few.

Jesus was a peaceful man who was against war in my opinion. The Bible speaks of turning swords to ploughshares, blessed are the peacemakers, etc. etc. etc. And to me, having a faith is about trying to do and be better.

I will not use my faith or tradition to justify something that is barbaric and immoral.

If someone were to prove that that in fact was the point of Christianity (to condone war) then I would no longer be a Christian.
Get used to me. Black, confident, cocky; my name, not yours; my religion, not yours; my goals, my own; get used to me. -Muhammad Ali












Thank you John Lennon.
Originally Posted by three rivers curly
I want that compliment.
Imagine if no one signed up for the military and everyone who was drafted fled the country or became a conscientious objector. War would either end, or the politicians and military leadership would have to fight it themselves. Or maybe they would try to enslave people from other nations to fight....
Originally Posted by Amneris
Thank you John Lennon.

Now - imagine someone invading your country and no one being there to defend you.


No one like war. It hasn't stopped in 2000 years and it isn't going to stop today. You're really big on tradition Amneris - war is tradition - it's in the bible.
Originally Posted by three rivers curly
I am not big on traditions that are barbaric, cruel or immoral. Nor is everything in the Bible condoned by God. Rape, murder and adultery are also there, to name a few.

Jesus was a peaceful man who was against war in my opinion. The Bible speaks of turning swords to ploughshares, blessed are the peacemakers, etc. etc. etc. And to me, having a faith is about trying to do and be better.

I will not use my faith or tradition to justify something that is barbaric and immoral.

If someone were to prove that that in fact was the point of Christianity (to condone war) then I would no longer be a Christian.
Originally Posted by Amneris
Oh. boy.

Well, since folks want to throw the Bible in this discussion, I think we must distinguish between Old Testament and New Testament. In the Old Testament, war is clearly condoned and directed by God--as much as many Christians would hate to admit it.

Based on the New Testament, it would be difficult for me to see how modern day wars would be condoned in the name of God. But, the New Testament does speak of wars that will happen in the end times. "There will be wars and rumors of war..." (Luke 21). I am not pro-war and in no way do I support this war. But, I also recognize that much of what is happening is part of God's sovereign will, whether I like it or not as a Christian.

Thank you John Lennon.
Originally Posted by three rivers curly
I want that compliment.
Originally Posted by Mip
Too bad! It is mine, MINE!

You can be Ringo though!
Get used to me. Black, confident, cocky; my name, not yours; my religion, not yours; my goals, my own; get used to me. -Muhammad Ali












Thank you John Lennon.
Originally Posted by three rivers curly
I want that compliment.
Originally Posted by Mip
Too bad! It is mine, MINE!

You can be Ringo though!
Originally Posted by Amneris

Ringo rocks!

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