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View Poll Results: How do you feel about abortion?
1. It's wrong/murder in any case 16 15.69%
2. Okay for rape/incest only 6 5.88%
3. A woman's legal right to choose 75 73.53%
4. Not sure; on the fence 5 4.90%
Voters: 102. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 06-23-2006, 06:17 PM   #61
 
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Everyone always seems to get bogged down in the argument of "When is the exact moment that life begins?" I think we're getting of on the wrong track.

I really believe there are two ways to bring an end to abortions. One is the easy way, overturn Roe v. Wade and ban all abortions. The other is the hard way. Educate women about how their bodies work and have access to birth control so unwanted pregnancies don't happen in the first place.
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Old 06-23-2006, 06:20 PM   #62
 
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To force a woman to carry another person inside her body against her will is unethical to me.
To me there is something fundamentally wrong when we women start viewing our own babies as merely "another person" growing "inside"' our own bodies.

The miracle that women have been blessed with to bring life into the world is not and should not be seen as a burden, a problem to be solved, or a dilemna of weighing rights.

I don't know, is it that we women have bought into the sexism of our society and now we too do not value ourselves, motherhood, or even our own children?
I think this is an oversimplification. Are you saying that pro-choice women do not value women, children or motherhood? If so, that is ridiculous and offensive. Even though I disagree with the pro-life view, I would not presume to say that those women do not value women's rights.

The problem is that is is a dilemma of weighing rights. From a legal point of view, (and laws regarding abortion are what everyone gets so worked up about), it is about rights. Does a woman have rights over a fetus? It's either yes or no.

It is a "problem to be solved," because so many women do wish to end a pregnancy, and so many around the world die trying to do so illegally. Should they have the right to legal, safe abortion or not? Do we want American women to die from unsafe abortions, or do we want them to have the same clean, modern medical care they would get any other time in their life?

I feel like pro-life and pro-choice advocates can find a common ground in helping women prevent unwanted pregnancies, but that does not seem to be happening.
[/b]
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Old 06-23-2006, 06:26 PM   #63
 
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I feel like pro-life and pro-choice advocates can find a common ground in helping women prevent unwanted pregnancies, but that does not seem to be happening. [/b]
like how?
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Old 06-23-2006, 06:32 PM   #64
 
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Originally Posted by iris427
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Originally Posted by ZzZoe
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To force a woman to carry another person inside her body against her will is unethical to me.
To me there is something fundamentally wrong when we women start viewing our own babies as merely "another person" growing "inside"' our own bodies.

The miracle that women have been blessed with to bring life into the world is not and should not be seen as a burden, a problem to be solved, or a dilemna of weighing rights.

I don't know, is it that we women have bought into the sexism of our society and now we too do not value ourselves, motherhood, or even our own children?
I think this is an oversimplification. Are you saying that pro-choice women do not value women, children or motherhood? If so, that is ridiculous and offensive. Even though I disagree with the pro-life view, I would not presume to say that those women do not value women's rights.

The problem is that is is a dilemma of weighing rights. From a legal point of view, (and laws regarding abortion are what everyone gets so worked up about), it is about rights. Does a woman have rights over a fetus? It's either yes or no.

It is a "problem to be solved," because so many women do wish to end a pregnancy, and so many around the world die trying to do so illegally. Should they have the right to legal, safe abortion or not? Do we want American women to die from unsafe abortions, or do we want them to have the same clean, modern medical care they would get any other time in their life?

I feel like pro-life and pro-choice advocates can find a common ground in helping women prevent unwanted pregnancies, but that does not seem to be happening.
[/b]
I agree with your last statement. I wouldn't call myself pro-life because if I had the opportunity to change the law and make abortion illegal, I would not do that. I am definitely against abortion and I think that we should be striving to make it as unneccesary a procedure as possible.

I think the arguments given to justify abortion are detrimental to women's rights...to indeed valuing women.

The argument you gave above, I recall, is similar to one from a famous essay (Thomas or Thompson is the author) regarding kidney transplants, baby seeds, and ultimately "a person occupying a woman's body."

To describe a baby as if it is some stranger who by some circumstances beyond a woman's control happens to occupy her body habitus is to me beyond absurd.

One it strips the woman of all responsibilty for her actions and her own body. In other words, women just don't wake up pregnant. In the vast majority of cases, they willingly engage in sex.

Secondly, for us to begin to think this way is another step in the devaluation of the role of women and indeed a devaluation of the miracle of life.
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Old 06-23-2006, 06:34 PM   #65
 
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Originally Posted by BlondieCurl
Everyone always seems to get bogged down in the argument of "When is the exact moment that life begins?" I think we're getting of on the wrong track.

I really believe there are two ways to bring an end to abortions. One is the easy way, overturn Roe v. Wade and ban all abortions. The other is the hard way. Educate women about how their bodies work and have access to birth control so unwanted pregnancies don't happen in the first place.
Yes, it is about empowering women.
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Old 06-23-2006, 06:38 PM   #66
 
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Everyone always seems to get bogged down in the argument of "When is the exact moment that life begins?" I think we're getting of on the wrong track.
I think that the timing issue (when does life begin) *is* important because there are plenty of women who don't particularly want their 2 year olds or 5 year olds or 15 year olds...and if they could somehow convince a judge that somehow those children weren't viable, they'd probably be offed, too.
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Old 06-23-2006, 06:43 PM   #67
 
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Educating women and teens about safe sex and abstinence and how our bodies work, and making sure sexually-active women have access to the birth control methods of their choice.
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Old 06-23-2006, 07:03 PM   #68
 
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It's so nice to see a rational discussion. I stand corrected ladies.
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Old 06-23-2006, 07:28 PM   #69
 
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It's so nice to see a rational discussion. I stand corrected ladies.
I'll try not to post after my lemon drop martini. You'll be disappointed all over again.
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Old 06-23-2006, 07:50 PM   #70
 
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One woman's miracle is another woman's burden. Not all woman are cut out for motherhood. I'm quite traditional and old-fashioned, I enjoy roles that are traditionally "women's work". I also feel like certain aspects of feminism HAS hurt us as women. OTOH, I am also childfree by choice. Just because I have a womb doesn't mean I need to use it.

I am adamantly pro-choice. I don't believe abortion should be used as primary birth control (yes, I've know people that have had 4-5), but I believe it should continue to be safe and legal alternative to an unwanted pregnancy.

edited for clarity
ITA! with your post

The thing that kills me about the pro-choice thing is not everyone is suitable to be a mother. Not everyone has the means to support a child, whether it be mentally, financially, etc...There are so many flawed individuals...I donít believe everyone with a uterus is fit to be a mother.

With governmental assistance becoming a thing of the past...adoption agencies making good on finding homes for infants, while the older kids rot in an orphanage and never feel a sense of love/family...not to mention the lack of support from fathers...

I mean what is a woman to do? Iíd rather she have an abortion than raise a child in a whirlwind of instability. What positivism can come from that? The world we live in proves none!

most people who are pro-choice have conservative views and usually donít support any of the things I mentioned above...so when the unfit women have babies they canít support, where do they go for help? You usually tell them to get a job!

So thatís the part of the pro-choice pie I canít swallow...you know these women are unstable...yet you want to abolish welfare, public housing, and adopt infants...

If you're advocating life...don't turn your back on it when it gets here.

After youíve told a woman she canít have an abortion, youíve opened yourself to helping her support the life she didnít want to care for.
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Old 06-23-2006, 08:07 PM   #71
 
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I'm 100% pro-choice. It's the woman's right to decide what she wants to do with HER body since she's the one that will have to bear the burden of giving birth.
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Old 06-23-2006, 08:09 PM   #72
 
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Originally Posted by meryn
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Originally Posted by LisaAnn
It's so nice to see a rational discussion. I stand corrected ladies.
I'll try not to post after my lemon drop martini. You'll be disappointed all over again.
Ha. Meryn don't make me pull out the drunk stories.
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Old 06-23-2006, 08:18 PM   #73
 
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Originally Posted by jazzijenni81
most people who are pro-choice have conservative views and usually donít support any of the things I mentioned above...so when the unfit women have babies they canít support, where do they go for help? You usually tell them to get a job!

So thatís the part of the pro-choice pie I canít swallow...you know these women are unstable...yet you want to abolish welfare, public housing, and adopt infants...

If you're advocating life...don't turn your back on it when it gets here.

After youíve told a woman she canít have an abortion, youíve opened yourself to helping her support the life she didnít want to care for.
On a personal level, yes, I (who am pro-life) am concerned with the welfare of mothers and children who are struggling to make ends meet and just maintain in whatever way. And on a personal level, yes, I want to adopt, and I plan to. But objectively speaking, why is it my responsibility to support these women and their children in any way?

Say I support a governor who has a strong anti-DWI stance. Does that mean if I vote for this governor and Bob Smith (who I don't know) gets pulled over drunk and loses his license, I have to drive Bob Smith to work for the rest of his life?

At what point are people expected to assume responsibility for their own lives?
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Old 06-23-2006, 08:33 PM   #74
 
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Well, those were my reasons why I could justify being pro-choice even when in my heart, I knew abortion is killing your own offspring. (Maybe other people have different reasons, though.)

Anyway, I decided eventually that I couldn't play both sides of the table like that. I was trying to support something I honestly could not justify and I knew was wrong, like the person who looks the other way when her husband cheats on the family taxes or something so they can have more money to go on vacation. No matter how you try to spin it and pretty it up, it just isn't right, imo.
I appreciate these reasons more than any other pro-life reasons I've ever heard. I think it's really honest and makes a lot of sense.
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Old 06-23-2006, 08:35 PM   #75
 
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Originally Posted by meryn
One woman's miracle is another woman's burden. Not all woman are cut out for motherhood. I'm quite traditional and old-fashioned, I enjoy roles that are traditionally "women's work". I also feel like certain aspects of feminism HAS hurt us as women. OTOH, I am also childfree by choice. Just because I have a womb doesn't mean I need to use it.

I am adamantly pro-choice. I don't believe abortion should be used as primary birth control (yes, I've know people that have had 4-5), but I believe it should continue to be safe and legal alternative to an unwanted pregnancy.

edited for clarity
Totally agree with all of this.
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Old 06-23-2006, 08:37 PM   #76
 
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Originally Posted by spiderlashes5000
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Originally Posted by jazzijenni81
most people who are pro-choice have conservative views and usually donít support any of the things I mentioned above...so when the unfit women have babies they canít support, where do they go for help? You usually tell them to get a job!

So thatís the part of the pro-choice pie I canít swallow...you know these women are unstable...yet you want to abolish welfare, public housing, and adopt infants...

If you're advocating life...don't turn your back on it when it gets here.

After youíve told a woman she canít have an abortion, youíve opened yourself to helping her support the life she didnít want to care for.
On a personal level, yes, I (who am pro-life) am concerned with the welfare of mothers and children who are struggling to make ends meet and just maintain in whatever way. And on a personal level, yes, I want to adopt, and I plan to. But objectively speaking, why is it my responsibility to support these women and their children in any way?
Say I support a governor who has a strong anti-DWI stance. Does that mean if I vote for this governor and Bob Smith (who I don't know) gets pulled over drunk and loses his license, I have to drive Bob Smith to work for the rest of his life?

At what point are people expected to assume responsibility for their own lives?
thats my whole point spider. when people try to assume responsibility, you tell them they can't...for selfish reasons.

woman A having an abortion has nothing to do w jenni...

if jenni fights so woman A can't have an abortion...jenni has assumed some form of responsibility and therefore should help woman A when she gives birth to the child I fought for her to have...

so don't abolish welfare, don't abolish public housing, don't make unavailable everything these women and their unwanted babies need!

thats my only point.

you cant say "no" to a woman's option, then turn your back on her when she does what you asked! this is exactly what governemnt and society does.

its like a drunken man. declaring laws, then making it unbearable once followed. its senseless.
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Old 06-23-2006, 08:43 PM   #77
 
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if jenni fights so woman A can't have an abortion...jenni has assumed some form of responsibility and therefore should help woman A when she gives birth to the child I fought for her to have...
I wholeheartedly agree with this. As a society, we need to take responsiblity for all of our children.
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Old 06-23-2006, 08:47 PM   #78
 
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Originally Posted by jazzijenni81
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Originally Posted by spiderlashes5000
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Originally Posted by jazzijenni81
most people who are pro-choice have conservative views and usually donít support any of the things I mentioned above...so when the unfit women have babies they canít support, where do they go for help? You usually tell them to get a job!

So thatís the part of the pro-choice pie I canít swallow...you know these women are unstable...yet you want to abolish welfare, public housing, and adopt infants...

If you're advocating life...don't turn your back on it when it gets here.

After youíve told a woman she canít have an abortion, youíve opened yourself to helping her support the life she didnít want to care for.
On a personal level, yes, I (who am pro-life) am concerned with the welfare of mothers and children who are struggling to make ends meet and just maintain in whatever way. And on a personal level, yes, I want to adopt, and I plan to. But objectively speaking, why is it my responsibility to support these women and their children in any way?
Say I support a governor who has a strong anti-DWI stance. Does that mean if I vote for this governor and Bob Smith (who I don't know) gets pulled over drunk and loses his license, I have to drive Bob Smith to work for the rest of his life?

At what point are people expected to assume responsibility for their own lives?
thats my whole point spider. when people try to assume responsibility, you tell them they can't...for selfish reasons.

woman A having an abortion has nothing to do w jenni...

if jenni fights so woman A can't have an abortion...jenni has assumed some form of responsibility and therefore should help woman A when she gives birth to the child I fought for her to have...

so don't abolish welfare, don't abolish public housing, don't make unavailable everything these women and their unwanted babies need!

thats my only point.

you cant say "no" to a woman's option, then turn your back on her when she does what you asked! this is exactly what governemnt and society does.

its like a drunken man. declaring laws, then making it unbearable once followed. its senseless.
But maybe I don't see it as a "woman's option" but another person's life. Maybe I see it as having lost the "option of remaining childfree" once you've had sex.

What if a woman tries to push her 4 year old off a bridge? I see it and grab the child and prevent the murder from happening. Am I now responsible for raising that child? Because to me, the fetus and the 4 year old are equal. And I'd no more allow a person to harm a fetus than I would a four year old. But I never asked for either the four year old or the fetus to be conceived...that was someone else's doing.
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Old 06-23-2006, 08:51 PM   #79
 
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[b]But objectively speaking, why is it my responsibility to support these women and their children in any way?

At what point are people expected to assume responsibility for their own lives?
These are some huge issues right here. Personally, I was taught that it's the responsibility of the strong to help the weak. That's the bottom line.

That's why I support social problems, am proud to pay annual taxes that you wouldn't believe, and will always contribute to charity. There are infinite ways that people can be weak. Some have low IQ, some have mental illness, some have weak spirits. When a child is brought into this world, it is all of our responsibilities.

I hate to say this, but what's up with pro-lifers being so religious and not understanding what I always took to be a fundamental christian teaching: Are you not your brother's keeper?
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Old 06-23-2006, 09:07 PM   #80
 
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Originally Posted by spiderlashes5000
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Originally Posted by jazzijenni81
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Originally Posted by spiderlashes5000
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzijenni81
most people who are pro-choice have conservative views and usually donít support any of the things I mentioned above...so when the unfit women have babies they canít support, where do they go for help? You usually tell them to get a job!

So thatís the part of the pro-choice pie I canít swallow...you know these women are unstable...yet you want to abolish welfare, public housing, and adopt infants...

If you're advocating life...don't turn your back on it when it gets here.

After youíve told a woman she canít have an abortion, youíve opened yourself to helping her support the life she didnít want to care for.
On a personal level, yes, I (who am pro-life) am concerned with the welfare of mothers and children who are struggling to make ends meet and just maintain in whatever way. And on a personal level, yes, I want to adopt, and I plan to. But objectively speaking, why is it my responsibility to support these women and their children in any way?
Say I support a governor who has a strong anti-DWI stance. Does that mean if I vote for this governor and Bob Smith (who I don't know) gets pulled over drunk and loses his license, I have to drive Bob Smith to work for the rest of his life?

At what point are people expected to assume responsibility for their own lives?
thats my whole point spider. when people try to assume responsibility, you tell them they can't...for selfish reasons.

woman A having an abortion has nothing to do w jenni...

if jenni fights so woman A can't have an abortion...jenni has assumed some form of responsibility and therefore should help woman A when she gives birth to the child I fought for her to have...

so don't abolish welfare, don't abolish public housing, don't make unavailable everything these women and their unwanted babies need!

thats my only point.

you cant say "no" to a woman's option, then turn your back on her when she does what you asked! this is exactly what governemnt and society does.

its like a drunken man. declaring laws, then making it unbearable once followed. its senseless.
But maybe I don't see it as a "woman's option" but another person's life. Maybe I see it as having lost the "option of remaining childfree" once you've had sex.
What if a woman tries to push her 4 year old off a bridge? I see it and grab the child and prevent the murder from happening. Am I now responsible for raising that child? Because to me, the fetus and the 4 year old are equal. And I'd no more allow a person to harm a fetus than I would a four year old. But I never asked for either the four year old or the fetus to be conceived...that was someone else's doing.
but spider, what if i dont see it that way? should i still follow the doctrine of your belief system?

if thats the case, the bill of rights is bolonga!

and you're right, you didnt ask for the fetus so you shouldnt have a say on what the woman does with it.

i hope im not coming off snarky spider, you're my buddy...im just trying to make a point.

i've never been in this situation...but i have many relatives that have been...and the way they've raised or are raising their kids...they would have been better off having abortions.

id rather women not bring children in the world than raise them f.cked up!

chocolate curls
ITA w your logic![/b]

Zoe
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