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View Poll Results: How do you feel about abortion?
1. It's wrong/murder in any case 16 15.69%
2. Okay for rape/incest only 6 5.88%
3. A woman's legal right to choose 75 73.53%
4. Not sure; on the fence 5 4.90%
Voters: 102. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 06-23-2006, 09:07 PM   #81
 
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Originally Posted by Chocolate Curls
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Originally Posted by spiderlashes5000
[b]But objectively speaking, why is it my responsibility to support these women and their children in any way?

At what point are people expected to assume responsibility for their own lives?
These are some huge issues right here. Personally, I was taught that it's the responsibility of the strong to help the weak. That's the bottom line.

That's why I support social problems, am proud to pay annual taxes that you wouldn't believe, and will always contribute to charity. There are infinite ways that people can be weak. Some have low IQ, some have mental illness, some have weak spirits. When a child is brought into this world, it is all of our responsibilities.

I hate to say this, but what's up with pro-lifers being so religious and not understanding what I always took to be a fundamental christian teaching: Are you not your brother's keeper?
What type of annual taxes do you mean?

Yeah, some people are just cold-hearted. That's another human character flaw...but it is their right to be that way, I suppose. The label "Christian" doesn't guarantee good behavior.

But I think what contributes to the cold-heartedness is that there are a lot of lazy whiners out there that sort of ruin in for people who are well-intentioned but just need some help. My best friend had a baby, quit her job to stay home with the baby while the baby's father lived wth them and supported them on a really good salary. They took trips to the Caribbean and Hawaii twice a year and they had lots of nice stuff. But she collected welfare and told the welfare office she didn't know who the father of her child is. Not *where* he is but *who* he is! Another good friend of mine was a welfare fruad investigator for the City of New York, and the stories she'd tell me would make me wanna puke. These sorts of stories sort of cloud a person's perception of the problem.

And another part I guess is that these 'religious' people do not want to condone bad behavior -- premarital sex, etc. Some see it as condoning it if they offer help.
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Old 06-23-2006, 09:21 PM   #82
 
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Originally Posted by jazzijenni81
but spider, what if i dont see it that way? should i still follow the doctrine of your belief system?
not until the majority feel this way. Then yes, you (they whoever) will have to comply.

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Originally Posted by jazzijenni81
if thats the case, the bill of rights is bolonga!
those who feel fetuses are human beings may feel it is...

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Originally Posted by jazzijenni81
and you're right, you didnt ask for the fetus so you shouldnt have a say on what the woman does with it.
Nor did I ask for the 4 year old (remember, the one being pushed off the bridge ) but should I condone someone harming it? I wouldn't even stand by and watch someone hurt a dog.

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i hope im not coming off snarky spider, you're my buddy...im just trying to make a point.
No, not at all. That's why I come here. It's a good discussion.

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Originally Posted by jazzijenni81
i've never been in this situation...but i have many relatives that have been...and the way they've raised or are raising their kids...they would have been better off having abortions.

id rather women not breing children in the world than raise them f.cked up!
That's the hard part. But for me, and this is just for me, I think when you ask God to soften your heart...he softens every part of it...the part that would want to have the abortion...and the part that would allow you to be a bad parent. God meets you more than halfway. For people who don't have God...I don't know. I feel badly for them. But I can't condone what I believe is murder. I do what I can to make the world better for these kids and put the rest in God's hands. But I couldn't sleep at night with the blood of an innocent child (fetus) on my hands.

And I actually participated in an abortion some years ago...drove my friend there and picked her up and lied to her boss and daughter about where she was. I wish I had done things differently. But that was a long time ago...
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Old 06-23-2006, 09:45 PM   #83
 
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What if a woman tries to push her 4 year old off a bridge? I see it and grab the child and prevent the murder from happening. Am I now responsible for raising that child? Because to me, the fetus and the 4 year old are equal. And I'd no more allow a person to harm a fetus than I would a four year old. But I never asked for either the four year old or the fetus to be conceived...that was someone else's doing.
The woman who does this is probably destitute, prostituting herself and on crack. I have a feeling that the same people picketing in front of planned parenthood would treat her like a leper. The only way she or that four year old are getting help is through the social programs, free housing and free healthcare promoted by the liberals. It's just...ironic.

I've come to understand something over the years. Some people are just weaklings. Some people are immoral. Some people are stupid. These are all part of what I refer to as "the weak". Are they like that because of poor constitutions, poor parenting, chemicals in their brain? I don't know. The strong just have to lump it. It's the way of things. As I've made peace with that, a whole new world perspective has opened up. It allows me to be generous with people who I feel are undeserving. Who am I to judge another, anyway? Who am I to decide who is deserving?

When is an adult "viable" and should be forced to stand on their own two feet? When they're intelligent? When they're mature? When you're smart and lucky, it's hard to remember that the average IQ is about 100. That means that there are a lot of 80's walking around out there and people like that can't be bullied into, shamed or guilted into being the kind of person that can hack it. Neither can people who were born into unusually bad circumstances or some people born with that gene that makes them drink until they die.

I can hack it. I am fortunate and that's something that I can recognize. My husband is here with me. I am strong and smart. I have a gifted will. I was born fortunate. How can I be so cold to someone not born with all of those things? How can I say that they took a path that I wouldn't, in their shoes?

The christian fundamentals (which although I'm not a christian anymore, I do believe are sound) weren't slapped together to produce a bunch of bean-counting supervisors looking over everyone else' shoulders. They're about each of us as individuals. What am I doing? Am I being good? Am I being generous? Am I full of love?

Ya know?
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Old 06-23-2006, 09:48 PM   #84
 
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i totally understand where you are coming from spider...but there are so many women that are just unfit...i mean LOTS...and while i know in my heart its wrong...i just think its a better choice for some women..especially considering the lack of help around here these days.

if i were to become pregnant, even though im not married and was raised to have children in wedlock...i would have my baby...

but i come from an ideal family and have total support...an overload of common sense...and will soon have a master's...so to have an abortion, for me, would be totally selfish b/c i have the means (mentally and financially) to care for a child.

but what about the woman that's in the exact opposite situation? why bring a child into a setting where everything is against him? mom has no money, no sense, no family, no values, no systems...what can she do other than make the kid a replica of her?

do we really need more losers in the world?

bush preaches "no abortion" then makes it impossible to survive once you have the child. thats just plain wrong and IMO...a conspiracy to make it impossible for certain people to live.

just like men have the right to step away from parentage, women should the same...and let them deal w the consequences on judgement day...the babies are already in heaven
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Old 06-23-2006, 10:31 PM   #85
 
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Sometimes the ones I'm worried about are not necessarily the ones from the poor, single mothers...

Yeah, I do believe they probably go to heaven, and that keeps me from getting really pissed off at those who choose to abort.

Oh yeah, I dated a guy who was raised by a heroin addict, later crack addict mother...this was after they left his physically abusive heroin addict father and moved in with the neighbor. This guy had a kid when he was 16 and served 2 years in prison when he was 22-24. At the time I dated him, he was making $6.00/hour, didn't have a phone and received food stamps because he had custody of his son. They lived in a one bedroom apartment and the exbf slept on a mattress on the floor and drove a car that was 15 years old. He'd also been in a rehab twice for alcoholism (and had to have a breast reduction when he was in high school from all the reefer his mother smoked while she was pregnant with him).

I actually had the nerve to ask him if he'd ever wished he'd not been born. And he said, in all seriousness, "No, have you? Why would you ask me that?"

So just because *I* may think someone grew up to have a suck life, doesn't mean *he/she* thinks so. This guy is someone we might have 'dismissed' as being better off aborted. But he was damn happy to be here!

Code:
No, I didn't marry him!
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Old 06-23-2006, 11:25 PM   #86
 
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Wow.. there has been a lot posted since I was last here, and I cannot POSSIBLY address it all.. There has been so many good points made from each side, and while I don't necessarily agree with everything everyone has said, I really do respect y'all's opinions because it's clear you're all smart and have really thought this out. I'm just excited we can have this convo now five pages without a war!! Everyone worried me at first saying it would be bad! Lets keep it that way.

I love this line from jazzi jen's post (for some reason I'm having trouble quoting. I'm not too savvy tonight!) : "just like men have the right to step away from parentage, women should the same...and let them deal w the consequences on judgement day...the babies are already in heaven "

I totally agree with that, especially the bold part. Very good point. I guess what it all comes down to in the end, is that at this moment, abortion IS legal, and whether you agree it should stay that way or not, I don't think anyone should really judge someone who has it. We are not supposed to judge, period. I don't think. There is so much gray... It's just like gay marriage to me. Even if I feel it's morally wrong, goes against my beliefs, I can see that homosexuals are people too, and if they live in America, they have the same rights I do, as an American. And people say, oh they're sinners... BUT I know lots of gay people who have ALWAYS been that way. They believe they were born that way. They didn't make a choice. So doesn't that mean that God made them like that? How could God punish them for being who they are, then? My friend says "oh, well they shouldn't act on it" and I say, "okay then, you become a lesbian. You are attracted to men, but that's wrong, so don't follow that anymore. Deny who you are". That's what it's like for them to "not act on it".... But I'm rambling

My point is, that I, as a Christian, believe abortion is murder/wrong/etc. I would never do it. I have thought about it long and hard and I wouldn't even do it if I were raped... it would be hard, yes, but I couldn't live with myself. Also as a Christian though, I believe God knows a hell of a lot more than I do and I cannot make decisions for other people or judge them for theirs. It's simply not my place. That applies to abortions, to any crimes, to gay marriage - whatever. That's just me though.

I do agree about the fact that lots of people *we* might think should have been aborted, don't feel that way. We have no way of knowing.. I guess to me it's kinda like playing God. Even if a doctor told me my child would probably die, I don't think I could abort it. What if he were wrong? Would that not torment me every day the rest of my life...?

I also agree that some feminist ideas are bad for women. For example, when I do have children, if at all possible, I will stay home and be a full time mom. I don't judge women who work, and I don't want to be judged for that decision... But some "feminists" think that you are doing wrong by feeling this way, that you are making yourself less than what you could be. To me, that's anti-feminist.. If I choose to do it and that's what I want to do, then aren't I exercising my rights as a woman?

But I digress

Love this conversation. Very interesting to see all the viewpoints. Sorry to ramble . It's 1:30 am here.. I need to go to bed
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Old 06-23-2006, 11:30 PM   #87
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spiderlashes5000
Sometimes the ones I'm worried about are not necessarily the ones from the poor, single mothers...

Yeah, I do believe they probably go to heaven, and that keeps me from getting really pissed off at those who choose to abort.

Oh yeah, I dated a guy who was raised by a heroin addict, later crack addict mother...this was after they left his physically abusive heroin addict father and moved in with the neighbor. This guy had a kid when he was 16 and served 2 years in prison when he was 22-24. At the time I dated him, he was making $6.00/hour, didn't have a phone and received food stamps because he had custody of his son. They lived in a one bedroom apartment and the exbf slept on a mattress on the floor and drove a car that was 15 years old. He'd also been in a rehab twice for alcoholism (and had to have a breast reduction when he was in high school from all the reefer his mother smoked while she was pregnant with him).

I actually had the nerve to ask him if he'd ever wished he'd not been born. And he said, in all seriousness, "No, have you? Why would you ask me that?"

So just because *I* may think someone grew up to have a suck life, doesn't mean *he/she* thinks so. This guy is someone we might have 'dismissed' as being better off aborted. But he was damn happy to be here!

Code:
No, I didn't marry him!
:P
I guess that sums up a lot of how I feel... Who are WE to decide who lives and who dies? To me this applies from birth on out. Despite the fact that I consider myself republican, I do have some more "liberal" views and this is one.. I'm against the death penalty for the same reason I'm against abortion. Not my choice to make. And I guess I've always kinda felt like a woman "chooses" when she chooses to have sex. Maybe I'm odd.. I have only been with one person and that's my husband. I was 18 and we had been together a couple years at that point (together 6 now) and it took me a long time to accept losing my virginity because I felt like at that point, I made the decision to have a child. I guess that sounds dumb, but I knew it became a possibility then and I've always said you should be prepared that anyone you sleep with be in your life in some way forever, i.e. a child together.

But that's just me too and I'm kinda old fashioned about that stuff...
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Old 06-24-2006, 01:36 AM   #88
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sweet Curly
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Originally Posted by Rheanna83
If you belief a fetus is a life from the get-go, then you can't really find abortion to be okay, but otherwise, it's almost like a non-issue.
Before this gets out of control, I just wanted to address this point. I believe life starts at conception and I *do* believe abortion is ok, so I've proved your point wrong.
All you proved was that your opinion is different than Rheanna's. Opinions cannot be proven right or wrong, which is why this particular topic always ends up being at least 10 pages, gets heated here and there, and no one ever changes their views.

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Originally Posted by Sweet Curly
Until it's able to live outside my body on its own, it's part of me and I can do with it what I please. Murder? Maybe, but still my right since it relies on my body for its survival. Once it no longer relies on my body for its survival, then I feel it's murder in the traditional sense.
My 9 year old still relies on my body for survival to the point that it's illegal for me to leave her at home alone, which by law is considered child endangerment. So according to your philosophy it would be my given right to "do her in" if the urge hits, if this is what I please?

I don't mean to come off as snarky, it's just that the tone of your post seems to take a very nonchalant/lighthearted attitude towards a very serious issue regardless of what side of the fence you are on.
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Old 06-24-2006, 01:40 AM   #89
 
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I did feel he was a sorta cute little parasite until he was born. Doesn't mean I love him any less now.
Even at 9, mine still feels like a parasite at times.
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Old 06-24-2006, 05:44 AM   #90
 
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I think it's a choice and that that the choice should be to carry the child unless it will kill the mother.
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Old 06-24-2006, 11:31 AM   #91
 
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OK someone explain this point: It's OK to have abortions as long as they're not being used as birth control.

I don't get it. Why not? If it's OK to have one or two, why is it wrong to have 15 or 20? Or do you mean as long as you were using a legitimate form of birth control when you conceived, then it's OK to have abortions...as many as you want? I don't get what the criteria of "birth control like usage of abortion procedures" is or what difference it makes.

To me, it's like saying, it's OK to break into someone's home to steal food but not clothing...or it's OK to rape someone three times but not more than that...or it's OK to kill someone because they called you a name but not because they stepped on your shoe. It's like some kind of arbitrary distinction is being made, but without any real paramaters. When does it become "like birth control?"

Either it's murder or it's not...the first time and the 20th time. And either we're OK with murder or we aren't.

Can someone clarify because maybe I'm missing the idea behind this viewpoint?
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Old 06-24-2006, 11:42 AM   #92
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im pro-choice
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Old 06-24-2006, 11:47 AM   #93
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spiderlashes5000
OK someone explain this point: It's OK to have abortions as long as they're not being used as birth control.

I don't get it. Why not? If it's OK to have one or two, why is it wrong to have 15 or 20? Or do you mean as long as you were using a legitimate form of birth control when you conceived, then it's OK to have abortions...as many as you want? I don't get what the criteria of "birth control like usage of abortion procedures" is or what difference it makes.

To me, it's like saying, it's OK to break into someone's home to steal food but not clothing...or it's OK to rape someone three times but not more than that...or it's OK to kill someone because they called you a name but not because they stepped on your shoe. It's like some kind of arbitrary distinction is being made, but without any real paramaters. When does it become "like birth control?"

Either it's murder or it's not...the first time and the 20th time. And either we're OK with murder or we aren't.

Can someone clarify because maybe I'm missing the idea behind this viewpoint?
Very good points. I'd have to say I agree with what you're saying...

I may be missing the idea too though, so I would love it if someone on the other side of the fence could share that with us.

I hadn't really thought about it either. I'm still a bit confused about how you can think it's murder but think it should be legal. Murder in the traditional sense is not legal, so why should that type of murder?

I'm slightly confused also... I get all the viewpoints, even those I don't agree with, but to me that part of it is more black and white. If you don't think it's murder, fine, you're pro-choice... If you do think it's murder, how can you think it should be legal?

NOT trying to be snarky or anything either, I just don't understand
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Old 06-24-2006, 03:13 PM   #94
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spiderlashes5000
OK someone explain this point: It's OK to have abortions as long as they're not being used as birth control.

I don't get it. Why not? If it's OK to have one or two, why is it wrong to have 15 or 20? Or do you mean as long as you were using a legitimate form of birth control when you conceived, then it's OK to have abortions...as many as you want? I don't get what the criteria of "birth control like usage of abortion procedures" is or what difference it makes.

To me, it's like saying, it's OK to break into someone's home to steal food but not clothing...or it's OK to rape someone three times but not more than that...or it's OK to kill someone because they called you a name but not because they stepped on your shoe. It's like some kind of arbitrary distinction is being made, but without any real paramaters. When does it become "like birth control?"

Either it's murder or it's not...the first time and the 20th time. And either we're OK with murder or we aren't.

Can someone clarify because maybe I'm missing the idea behind this viewpoint?
Itís like this...

If you have to do something demeaning whether it be stealing or prostituting to feed your family...you do it.

But at some point, you have to get yourself together and do something honorable...you make the best out of a bad situation by learning what NOT to do, or what TO do to avoid stealing and prostitution. You donít make a career of it, you learn from it.

Same thing w the abortion. If you make a mistake, you learn from it and do everything in power not to make it again. You donít become a serial abortionist.

Ultimately, itís wrong. But in the world we live in...itís an option...sometimes a necessary optionÖjust like stealing and prostituting...the difference is, abortion is legal.
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Old 06-24-2006, 07:23 PM   #95
 
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I'm for widespread, low-cost, and unrestricted access to and comprehensive education about the proper use of birth control, so that a woman's legally protected choice to have an abortion can become increasingly rare.

I also think long-term birth control (IUDs, patch, implants) is an option more young women and teenagers should be encouraged to consider.
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Old 06-24-2006, 07:41 PM   #96
 
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spiderlashes5000 wrote:
Quote:
OK someone explain this point: It's OK to have abortions as long as they're not being used as birth control.
Mostly, I think its idiotic. There are less expensive and less invasive forms of birth control that are very effective, and passing those up while getting multiple abortions shows carelessness, poor planning, and poor ability to learn from one's prior mistakes.

Its a little like not being careful around your riding lawn mower because you can always get another prosthetic limb. Yes, you can, and your insurance may even cover it, but if you've already had one limb replacement and you're not taking relatively simple precautions around heavy machinery to prevent another accident, you're a bloody moron.
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Old 06-24-2006, 08:14 PM   #97
 
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I see both sides of this part of the argument. I agree with spiderlashes that it doesn't make sense, and then I see why the others explained it in the way they do. I guess there really is a difference between having one abortion because you screwed up, and then the girl I went to school with who had 3 by our junior year... I mean, how do NOT figure out what's causing that? BUT, for me, either way, it's wrong so I can see both points.

I still don't get the argument about how people will do it either way, so make it legal. That could be taken way too literally, of way too many things... I don't remember who argued that. I think it was Chocolate Curls. I see the point, what she means, but still, we can't make everything legal because people will do it anyway...

*sigh*
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Old 06-24-2006, 08:20 PM   #98
 
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one of my aunts has had 3 or 4 abortions. I think she used abortion as contraception in her 20s. When she got married at 30 she tried and tried to conceive and couldn't. V sad. I remember her saying, "I don't understand it. I was aborting and aborting in college, so clearly I can get pregnant."
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Old 06-24-2006, 08:26 PM   #99
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rheanna83
I see both sides of this part of the argument. I agree with spiderlashes that it doesn't make sense, and then I see why the others explained it in the way they do. I guess there really is a difference between having one abortion because you screwed up, and then the girl I went to school with who had 3 by our junior year... I mean, how do NOT figure out what's causing that? BUT, for me, either way, it's wrong so I can see both points.

I still don't get the argument about how people will do it either way, so make it legal. That could be taken way too literally, of way too many things... I don't remember who argued that. I think it was Chocolate Curls. I see the point, what she means, but still, we can't make everything legal because people will do it anyway...

*sigh*
Oh, that was me. Well, to me, I basically try not to look over other people's shoulders too much. I'm not all about pedestrian laws and policing what other people do with their personal life. So, that's a big part of my outlook on abortion.

Like I said, I believe in legalizing gay marriage, prostitution, drugs, stuff like that. I'm not on this earth to be obsessed with the choices others make. I have my hands full trying to be good and decent myself.
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Old 06-24-2006, 08:56 PM   #100
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chocolate Curls
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rheanna83
I see both sides of this part of the argument. I agree with spiderlashes that it doesn't make sense, and then I see why the others explained it in the way they do. I guess there really is a difference between having one abortion because you screwed up, and then the girl I went to school with who had 3 by our junior year... I mean, how do NOT figure out what's causing that? BUT, for me, either way, it's wrong so I can see both points.

I still don't get the argument about how people will do it either way, so make it legal. That could be taken way too literally, of way too many things... I don't remember who argued that. I think it was Chocolate Curls. I see the point, what she means, but still, we can't make everything legal because people will do it anyway...

*sigh*
Oh, that was me. Well, to me, I basically try not to look over other people's shoulders too much. I'm not all about pedestrian laws and policing what other people do with their personal life. So, that's a big part of my outlook on abortion.

Like I said, I believe in legalizing gay marriage, prostitution, drugs, stuff like that. I'm not on this earth to be obsessed with the choices others make. I have my hands full trying to be good and decent myself.
Fair 'nuff then.. Thanks for comin' back to answer! Makes sense to me.
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