Biracial and Multiracial black people: Are those considered a race?

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I am aware that this topic will forever be controversial because everybody has a different perspective when it comes to this. I was raised in a very diverse community of cubans puerto ricans and tons of people from the west indies. Even so they never got into the worry of stating if they were multiracial or not. They always identified themselves as black. I don't particularly care for the one drop rule that America has come to go by but that was what I was raised with. I was also raised with some people around me who were too ashamed to embrace the fact that they had black in them so they would lie to people and say that they were something else. This is why I don't care when people start saying "oh I'm not black, I'm mixed" or even "I'm biracial".

In the end I just don't see why people make a big deal out of it, and also I wish people would understand that NOBODY will ever be right about this situation.....
Originally Posted by Hela
Here's the thing. You were raised in those communities. And Amneris was raised in those communities. And how you were brought up and your own individual racial background and parentage is going to affect how you view race and self-identification (you as in "gy").

Some of us (maybe many of us) with black ancestry who are mixed did NOT grow up in those communities. And we have an appearance that doesn't put us in one box so we don't live life being shoved into a box not of our own choosing. And we happen to like being part of more than one community and connecting with people in a range of communities, as well as other mixed race people in acknowledgement of being mixed race and discussion of what that's like/ how society treats us/ what our issues happen to be based on racial ambiguity in a world where everyone is breathing fire down your neck to make a choice and just fit into some square peg somewhere when you clearly do not.

I realize that not any one of is RIGHT of course. It's just that I would like for an experience like mine to be recognized and tolerated by other black people in the way that it is more often recognized and tolerated by non-black people. But maybe the answer is that it's more challenging and less possible because of severe racism thrust upon and colorism from within the black community. I have grown to just accept that there is a difference in how race is viewed by black people than some other groups (not everyone in those groups, just people I know and feel most close to).
Originally Posted by love yourself first

Okay, I acknowledge that I am mixed and accept the fact that I am mixed and was raised in a community where almost everybody is mixed.

However...

there was a time where people in my area did not accept me......either i wasn't black enough or i wasn't mixed enough. The way I was raised (or should i say the community that i was raised in) was one sided when it came to certain things. people only saw the following:

you were either black white or latin

I couldn't stand this so i chose to branch out and go to a school outside of my comfort and learned that there are so many different people with different mixes and backgrounds. i was very ignorant about this situation until i chose for myself to learn more. as I said before I really don't give a damn about race and what I categorize myself as cuz in the end no one will ever have what i have.......everyone including myself is unique in their own way........

There's just times where I feel people abuse the words multiracial and biracial.....some people will accept the fact that they are mixed and that's it. some people use it to deny who they are.
You are who you are and that's all that matters.....


EMBRACE THE CURLY, THE KINKY....THE NATURAL!!!
my hair blog: http://public.fotki.com/Hela23462/
PW: love

w
As to biracial and multiracial, I think those labels were developed as an alternative to the one-drop rule to more fully describe a person's identity, but my opinion is that they are often used to escape a person having to call themself "Black" and to weaken the Black community. .
Originally Posted by Amneris

It seems that SOME people who like using the biracial or multiracial label or want their kids to use it say that they are using it to get away from racial thinking or to honour their parentage... but how so? How is it getting away from racial thinking to further break down or analyze who is half this or a quarter that? (and of course those who are considered "full Black", whatever that is, is on the bottom.)

Biracial means two races... so Barack Obama's kids could say they're biracial too since they have white and Black blood... even though they have two Black-identified parents. And I think he has aboriginal blood on his mother's side, so he and they could also say they are multiracial. The terms to me become meaningless when they could apply to anyone.

I'm not a huge fan of the term Black either, but it's a recognizable term that has social implications and therefore has some use - but why create more meaningless terms?
Originally Posted by Amneris
KinkyKeeper, I NEVER said I believe in the one-drop rule or that everyone should call themself Black.

See above quotes. It seems clear to me from the above that your main argument throughout this thread has been a biracial identity would weaken the Black community (whatever that means) and that biracial and multiracial people don't exist becuase Black people are also Black/White biracial and multiracial ergo Black/White Biracials and Multiracial are Black. That is in a nutshell saying everyone should call themselves Black or the One Drop Rule (it doesn't have to be about believing Black blood pollutes, it's about believing all people of any measure of African ancestory should identify as only Black for whatever reason).

What I AM saying is that throughout the history of this part of the world, people called "Black" have been discriminated against and have had to struggle against that. People called "Black" encompass a lot of different people with partial African ancestry but many have all kinds of other ancestry as well. There is a long history of the struggle for equality amongst "Black" people - which encompasses a whole diversity of people and has NEVER been about a "pure" race of people and has NEVER excluded those of mixed blood.

That this group is seen as a separate race and treated poorly is a social issue we should all fight against along with other forms of injustice.

If people want to talk about or break down or acknowledge the other parts of their heritage, that's not a problem.

That's not what you said at the beginning of this thread.

If people have an issue with the idea of racial classifications and hierarchies, that's understandable, I certainly do.

If it somehow makes people feel good about themselves to have some kind of name that clearly emphasizes their mixed backgrounds, whatever, fine.

But I am not understanding how it ends one-dropism, racism, the false notion of race, cultural misunderstanding and alienation, etc. etc. etc. to add a (fake) race category - and then try to invent a history and culture that somehow ties this fake category together. That's all I am saying.

Actually there have been many legitimate multiracial cultures/ethnic groups and individual historical mixed race people's whose accomplishments were clearly influenced by their Biraciality listed for your education but I suppose anything can seem fake if you believe it is hard enough. And clearly we are operating under different ideas of what acknowledging Biracial and Multiracial identity is going to do. I don't recall saying it will end racism as we know it, one droppism, false notion of race. In my mind, I see it as accepting reality and rejecting One Droppists' attempt to try to keep a growing very real diverse population under one race and inventing fake disastorous consequences of what might happen if we let go of the idea that anybody of any Sub Saharan ancestory is only Black. It's interesting how people can see the same thing so differently. As for ending cultural alienation I think letting go of this idea we are all Black, can certainly do something for Mixed people in this area. Create a category for what many of us already felt but could never articulate. Create a category of what we really are so we can stop creating unnecessary stress on ourselves to become one or the other. The Freakonomics study had an interesting theory that Black people and White people made Biracial people (if they wanted to identify as one or the other) work extra harder to be considered one of them and this could be a contributor to mental stress. And at the very least socially acknowledging Multiracial can create a community where any Multiracial people who do experience stress and issues from being Multiracial have a forum to talk about it.

If you (gy) don't believe in race and don't want to call yourself Black, don't. It doesn't change the fact that other people sharing your background and possibly looking like you will be mistreated because of what others recognize as Black ancestry in them. It doesn't change that, despite all the complaints against it, IF you should decide, the Black community will welcome you with open arms. And whether or not I call myself biracial or multiracial, it doesn't really change anything.... because biracial and multiracial people were here through all this tormented racial history, and no one can show me that there was a separate section of the bus for us, separate schools for us, or any of that...


Depends on what country you are talking about becuase South Africa and Haiti at some points in history very much gave more/different priveleges to mixed people over "full" Black people. And even within America there were priveleges and there were no schools for Mulattos but during placage the White fathers would send them to France to be educated. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pla%C3%A7age

but now it seems some people want to create that, and that makes no sense. We've already been separated from white people.... so it somehow helps to also separate ourselves from Black people?

Well I have already stated I felt fear about cutting what I was constantly told (explicitly or implicitly) was a security blanket of the Black community. And that I feel the risk is worth the gain of an identity that describes me better. I have moved beyond that mentality that being Biracial will leave us alone. Even if we are, it's still more honest. But I don't think we will be alone, I have also stated I don't believe Biraciality has to be mutually exclusive to being White and Black.

I am open to believing there is some social value to this biracial business beyond self-gratification but not one poster has yet shown that there is.

I disagree and can see now I was correct not to waste my time to post more links that will just be ignored. There have been several excellent arguments for a Biracial identity on this thread from where I am standing. I'm curious, what WOULD constitute a good reason to call oneself Biracial for you Amneris if it hasn't been anything in this thread? And of course I repeat Biracial people shouldn't have to justify their ethnic legitimacy for anyone, especially not someone who is just going to sit back and dismiss it all no matter how relevant it may be. So what even if us wanting a Non-Black identity WAS just self gratification? I have NO idea why that is supposed to be a bad thing. I guess we (Multiracials) are just supposed to understand how sublimating our needs and wants in a bid to help the Black community "up", which may or not be work anyway, is for the best. Which, by the way, nobody has yet explained how someone choosing a Biracial/Multiracial identity is going to weaken the Black community.
Originally Posted by Amneris
Originally Posted by KinkyKeeper

Choosing a multiracial/biracial identity doesn't weaken the black community as long as that same biracial/multiracial person doesn't deny what they are mixed with. Some people have done that and it really disappoints me when I see it happening. I mean in the end it all falls on the person and what is comfortable to them. Me personally I don't see biracial/multiracial as a race since it is a kaleidoscope of races, not just one.
You are who you are and that's all that matters.....


EMBRACE THE CURLY, THE KINKY....THE NATURAL!!!
my hair blog: http://public.fotki.com/Hela23462/
PW: love

I love to see how other people feel about this situation but at the same time it kind of saddens me that stuff like this can produce such heated debates.
You are who you are and that's all that matters.....


EMBRACE THE CURLY, THE KINKY....THE NATURAL!!!
my hair blog: http://public.fotki.com/Hela23462/
PW: love

After reading my original post....i think the discussion ended up going out of context. I was just talking about my frustration in regards to a biracial black man telling me that I have no right speaking for dark skinned women even though I personally felt that they have no reason whatsoever to be jealous of biracial or non black women.

The reason why the guy rubbed me the wrong way was because he said to me that I could not speak for black people because I was not 100% black which IMO there is no such thing anymore.....I may be wrong but like I said...my opinion.
You are who you are and that's all that matters.....


EMBRACE THE CURLY, THE KINKY....THE NATURAL!!!
my hair blog: http://public.fotki.com/Hela23462/
PW: love

After reading my original post....i think the discussion ended up going out of context. I was just talking about my frustration in regards to a biracial black man telling me that I have no right speaking for dark skinned women even though I personally felt that they have no reason whatsoever to be jealous of biracial or non black women.

The reason why the guy rubbed me the wrong way was because he said to me that I could not speak for black people because I was not 100% black which IMO there is no such thing anymore.....I may be wrong but like I said...my opinion.
Originally Posted by Hela
OK, well I can address that issue.... but your post title was "biracial and multiracial Black people: are these considered a race" so people responded to that question more than the specific issue with this guy.

Honestly, speaking as a mixed-race and light-skinned woman, I have to agree with that guy... you can't speak for dark-skinned women since you are not one and don't identify as one. Saying you don't think they have a reason to be jealous is like white people telling Black people or other people of colour we don't need to worry about racism - how would they know, and how would you know?

Now, I'm not saying ANYONE should be jealous since it's not a productive way to feel... but on this specific issue, I can understand why some dark-skinned women sometimes feel resentful of light-skinned women, to an extent (having only experienced this from the light-skinned POV.) There is a lot of shadism in the Black community, which is the fault of white racism, not of light-skinned people, but we benefit from coming out on the top end of that. Because lighter-skinned/mixed people are seen as "closer" to white, we often get preferential treatment from whites, Blacks and others alike. The beauty standard for Black women is presented as the "light and curly" look - Beyonce, Rihanna, Halle Berry, etc. etc. etc. and women with this look are generally approached more by Black men, considered more attractive, etc. etc. etc.

I will admit in the past being resentful that it seemed to me at times that any white, blond woman (real or bottle blond) was automatically considered a step up in looks for being white and blond and many men, including Black men, would flock to them, because blond is presented as the ULTIMATE beauty standard. So I can likewise understand how darker-skinned Black women also feel that way about lighter-skinned women. It's unfortunate because we did not create this situation. But I think rather than get annoyed or say they have no right to feel the way they feel we should try to understand the reasoning behind the tension and do what we can to break down the barriers and promote a different beauty standard (or, how about no standard.)

And no, I don't think anyone is 100% Black, but I don't think people necessarily mean it literally in terms of bloodline - I think it's more a mentality or attitude.
Get used to me. Black, confident, cocky; my name, not yours; my religion, not yours; my goals, my own; get used to me. -Muhammad Ali












Last edited by Amneris; 08-08-2009 at 08:29 AM.
After reading my original post....i think the discussion ended up going out of context. I was just talking about my frustration in regards to a biracial black man telling me that I have no right speaking for dark skinned women even though I personally felt that they have no reason whatsoever to be jealous of biracial or non black women.

The reason why the guy rubbed me the wrong way was because he said to me that I could not speak for black people because I was not 100% black which IMO there is no such thing anymore.....I may be wrong but like I said...my opinion.
Originally Posted by Hela
OK, well I can address that issue.... but your post title was "biracial and multiracial Black people: are these considered a race" so people responded to that question more than the specific issue with this guy.

Honestly, speaking as a mixed-race and light-skinned woman, I have to agree with that guy... you can't speak for dark-skinned women since you are not one and don't identify as one. Saying you don't think they have a reason to be jealous is like white people telling Black people or other people of colour we don't need to worry about racism - how would they know, and how would you know?

Now, I'm not saying ANYONE should be jealous since it's not a productive way to feel... but on this specific issue, I can understand why some dark-skinned women sometimes feel resentful of light-skinned women, to an extent (having only experienced this from the light-skinned POV.) There is a lot of shadism in the Black community, which is the fault of white racism, not of light-skinned people, but we benefit from coming out on the top end of that. Because lighter-skinned/mixed people are seen as "closer" to white, we often get preferential treatment from whites, Blacks and others alike. The beauty standard for Black women is presented as the "light and curly" look - Beyonce, Rihanna, Halle Berry, etc. etc. etc. and women with this look are generally approached more by Black men, considered more attractive, etc. etc. etc.

I will admit in the past being resentful that it seemed to me at times that any white, blond woman (real or bottle blond) was automatically considered a step up in looks for being white and blond and many men, including Black men, would flock to them, because blond is presented as the ULTIMATE beauty standard. So I can likewise understand how darker-skinned Black women also feel that way about lighter-skinned women. It's unfortunate because we did not create this situation. But I think rather than get annoyed or say they have no right to feel the way they feel we should try to understand the reasoning behind the tension and do what we can to break down the barriers and promote a different beauty standard (or, how about no standard.)

And no, I don't think anyone is 100% Black, but I don't think people necessarily mean it literally in terms of bloodline - I think it's more a mentality or attitude.
Originally Posted by Amneris
I understand where u are coming from but IMO, i feel that they shouldn't. Being that I am light skinned, i don't consider myself better than a dark skinned woman since they some advantages.

due to their skin tone they do not have to worry about skin cancer like we do since they have high levels of melanin and also because they are just as beautiful too. When i stated my opinion I should not have spoken for dark skinned people but i was adding them into black people as a whole since they also said that black women were jealous of light skinned "non black" women.

Also, you are right that i have not experienced their pain specifically, but i have seen the bashing before, not just with biracial and non black women but light skinned black women as well. My best friend is dar skinned and used to deal with people calling ugly simply because of her skin tone and from other black girls.

I feel that honestly we are no better than them and because of this, felt i needed to say something.


oh yes and some people do mean 100% Black when they say it, not just from mentality or attitude, but as a whole. I've witnessed this with my own eyes and heard it with my own ears.
You are who you are and that's all that matters.....


EMBRACE THE CURLY, THE KINKY....THE NATURAL!!!
my hair blog: http://public.fotki.com/Hela23462/
PW: love


Last edited by Hela; 08-08-2009 at 08:43 AM.

I am aware that this topic will forever be controversial because everybody has a different perspective when it comes to this. I was raised in a very diverse community of cubans puerto ricans and tons of people from the west indies. Even so they never got into the worry of stating if they were multiracial or not. They always identified themselves as black. I don't particularly care for the one drop rule that America has come to go by but that was what I was raised with. I was also raised with some people around me who were too ashamed to embrace the fact that they had black in them so they would lie to people and say that they were something else. This is why I don't care when people start saying "oh I'm not black, I'm mixed" or even "I'm biracial".

In the end I just don't see why people make a big deal out of it, and also I wish people would understand that NOBODY will ever be right about this situation.....
Originally Posted by Hela
Here's the thing. You were raised in those communities. And Amneris was raised in those communities. And how you were brought up and your own individual racial background and parentage is going to affect how you view race and self-identification (you as in "gy").

Some of us (maybe many of us) with black ancestry who are mixed did NOT grow up in those communities. And we have an appearance that doesn't put us in one box so we don't live life being shoved into a box not of our own choosing. And we happen to like being part of more than one community and connecting with people in a range of communities, as well as other mixed race people in acknowledgement of being mixed race and discussion of what that's like/ how society treats us/ what our issues happen to be based on racial ambiguity in a world where everyone is breathing fire down your neck to make a choice and just fit into some square peg somewhere when you clearly do not.

I realize that not any one of is RIGHT of course. It's just that I would like for an experience like mine to be recognized and tolerated by other black people in the way that it is more often recognized and tolerated by non-black people. But maybe the answer is that it's more challenging and less possible because of severe racism thrust upon and colorism from within the black community. I have grown to just accept that there is a difference in how race is viewed by black people than some other groups (not everyone in those groups, just people I know and feel most close to).
Originally Posted by love yourself first
I think this is the crux of the issue - the African-American experience is different in many ways than the Latin American or Caribbean experience which is my experience. I think because for many of us a) being mixed race is just a normal fact of life and b) in many of our countries, Blacks, or people of colour, or mixed people are the majority rather than a minority, and c) we don't have a one drop rule, this whole biracial/multiracial thing isn't this big issue like it is in the US. We still deal with shadism and internalized racism and post-colonialism, but mixed race issues as issues in themselves don't really seem to come up to the same extent in the same way (though we have about 1,000 ways to classify someone's shade and degree of Blackness which is a whole 'nother thing, but in doing so we definitely recognize mixed identities!)

I think once many of us or our parents come to live in Canada, the US, the UK etc. we go from being the majority to being the minority in a white world, and so we feel that minority status and look for solidarity with others who are experiencing that - we realize that in this new world, we're seen first and foremost as Black and the challenges we have to overcome are based upon being seen as Black, whether or not we agree with that. We don't really have time to quibble over what we are called etc. because we already KNOW our family and personal history and it is accepted within our communities.

This is probably not true of everyone but it is for many people I know and definitely for myself.
Get used to me. Black, confident, cocky; my name, not yours; my religion, not yours; my goals, my own; get used to me. -Muhammad Ali











After reading my original post....i think the discussion ended up going out of context. I was just talking about my frustration in regards to a biracial black man telling me that I have no right speaking for dark skinned women even though I personally felt that they have no reason whatsoever to be jealous of biracial or non black women.

The reason why the guy rubbed me the wrong way was because he said to me that I could not speak for black people because I was not 100% black which IMO there is no such thing anymore.....I may be wrong but like I said...my opinion.
Originally Posted by Hela
OK, well I can address that issue.... but your post title was "biracial and multiracial Black people: are these considered a race" so people responded to that question more than the specific issue with this guy.

Honestly, speaking as a mixed-race and light-skinned woman, I have to agree with that guy... you can't speak for dark-skinned women since you are not one and don't identify as one. Saying you don't think they have a reason to be jealous is like white people telling Black people or other people of colour we don't need to worry about racism - how would they know, and how would you know?

Now, I'm not saying ANYONE should be jealous since it's not a productive way to feel... but on this specific issue, I can understand why some dark-skinned women sometimes feel resentful of light-skinned women, to an extent (having only experienced this from the light-skinned POV.) There is a lot of shadism in the Black community, which is the fault of white racism, not of light-skinned people, but we benefit from coming out on the top end of that. Because lighter-skinned/mixed people are seen as "closer" to white, we often get preferential treatment from whites, Blacks and others alike. The beauty standard for Black women is presented as the "light and curly" look - Beyonce, Rihanna, Halle Berry, etc. etc. etc. and women with this look are generally approached more by Black men, considered more attractive, etc. etc. etc.

I will admit in the past being resentful that it seemed to me at times that any white, blond woman (real or bottle blond) was automatically considered a step up in looks for being white and blond and many men, including Black men, would flock to them, because blond is presented as the ULTIMATE beauty standard. So I can likewise understand how darker-skinned Black women also feel that way about lighter-skinned women. It's unfortunate because we did not create this situation. But I think rather than get annoyed or say they have no right to feel the way they feel we should try to understand the reasoning behind the tension and do what we can to break down the barriers and promote a different beauty standard (or, how about no standard.)

And no, I don't think anyone is 100% Black, but I don't think people necessarily mean it literally in terms of bloodline - I think it's more a mentality or attitude.
Originally Posted by Amneris
I understand where u are coming from but IMO, i feel that they shouldn't. Being that I am light skinned, i don't consider myself better than a dark skinned woman since they some advantages.

due to their skin tone they do not have to worry about skin cancer like we do since they have high levels of melanin and also because they are just as beautiful too. When i stated my opinion I should not have spoken for dark skinned people but i was adding them into black people as a whole since they also said that black women were jealous of light skinned "non black" women.
Originally Posted by Hela
I am not saying that you personally feel you are better than dark-skinned women - I don't either - but it's not a matter of what you personally feel. It's a matter of from birth people scrutinize girl babies for how "fair" they are or how "good" their hair is and if they are mixed people will automatically say they are going to be beautiful.... it's the messages constantly sent by our culture that white is better than Black but IF you are Black, the lighter the better, which can eat at the self-esteem of SOME Black women - how could it not? just like the focus on blond hair and blue eyes used to eat at me and probably still does, somewhere deep down.

I don't see what skin cancer has to do with the discussion, but I think even light-skinned Black women, unless they are REALLY light, have plenty of natural protection. I am brown and I don't sunburn at all - I protect myself from the sun because I do hyperpigment on unexposed skin, but it's really not a huge concern of mine, nor do I think it was relevant to the discussion you were having. And while you are capable of seeing dark-skinned women as just as beautiful, the fact is that many people are not. If you look at most successful Black men, they're with white women, or if not white women, light-skinned Black women or other not-as-dark-skinned women of colour such as non-Black but non-white Latinas, Asians etc. far more than they are with dark-skinned Black women. Even the darker-skinned women who are said to be beautiful have real or fake European features (ie. Naomi Campbell with the long hair and dainty features) and are encouraged to relax their hair or wear weaves and so on. Dark-skinned women with natural hair are a pretty rare sight.
Get used to me. Black, confident, cocky; my name, not yours; my religion, not yours; my goals, my own; get used to me. -Muhammad Ali












I am aware that this topic will forever be controversial because everybody has a different perspective when it comes to this. I was raised in a very diverse community of cubans puerto ricans and tons of people from the west indies. Even so they never got into the worry of stating if they were multiracial or not. They always identified themselves as black. I don't particularly care for the one drop rule that America has come to go by but that was what I was raised with. I was also raised with some people around me who were too ashamed to embrace the fact that they had black in them so they would lie to people and say that they were something else. This is why I don't care when people start saying "oh I'm not black, I'm mixed" or even "I'm biracial".

In the end I just don't see why people make a big deal out of it, and also I wish people would understand that NOBODY will ever be right about this situation.....
Originally Posted by Hela
Here's the thing. You were raised in those communities. And Amneris was raised in those communities. And how you were brought up and your own individual racial background and parentage is going to affect how you view race and self-identification (you as in "gy").

Some of us (maybe many of us) with black ancestry who are mixed did NOT grow up in those communities. And we have an appearance that doesn't put us in one box so we don't live life being shoved into a box not of our own choosing. And we happen to like being part of more than one community and connecting with people in a range of communities, as well as other mixed race people in acknowledgement of being mixed race and discussion of what that's like/ how society treats us/ what our issues happen to be based on racial ambiguity in a world where everyone is breathing fire down your neck to make a choice and just fit into some square peg somewhere when you clearly do not.

I realize that not any one of is RIGHT of course. It's just that I would like for an experience like mine to be recognized and tolerated by other black people in the way that it is more often recognized and tolerated by non-black people. But maybe the answer is that it's more challenging and less possible because of severe racism thrust upon and colorism from within the black community. I have grown to just accept that there is a difference in how race is viewed by black people than some other groups (not everyone in those groups, just people I know and feel most close to).
Originally Posted by love yourself first
I think this is the crux of the issue - the African-American experience is different in many ways than the Latin American or Caribbean experience which is my experience. I think because for many of us a) being mixed race is just a normal fact of life and b) in many of our countries, Blacks, or people of colour, or mixed people are the majority rather than a minority, and c) we don't have a one drop rule, this whole biracial/multiracial thing isn't this big issue like it is in the US. We still deal with shadism and internalized racism and post-colonialism, but mixed race issues as issues in themselves don't really seem to come up to the same extent in the same way (though we have about 1,000 ways to classify someone's shade and degree of Blackness which is a whole 'nother thing, but in doing so we definitely recognize mixed identities!)

I think once many of us or our parents come to live in Canada, the US, the UK etc. we go from being the majority to being the minority in a white world, and so we feel that minority status and look for solidarity with others who are experiencing that - we realize that in this new world, we're seen first and foremost as Black and the challenges we have to overcome are based upon being seen as Black, whether or not we agree with that. We don't really have time to quibble over what we are called etc. because we already KNOW our family and personal history and it is accepted within our communities.

This is probably not true of everyone but it is for many people I know and definitely for myself.
Originally Posted by Amneris
response to the bold font:

you are absolutely right, this issue is nowhere near as controversial anywhere else than in the US.

In the end though the one thing that makes me say screw the titles is this:

These categories and titles are all MANMADE so in essence it really makes no sense to follow them. My grammy never cared for this, nor did my grandfather since they both were born in Cuba and Puerto Rico. My husband doesn't care for this either since he is from Barbados. He feels that this is just another way of separating people and causing drama.
You are who you are and that's all that matters.....


EMBRACE THE CURLY, THE KINKY....THE NATURAL!!!
my hair blog: http://public.fotki.com/Hela23462/
PW: love


OK, well I can address that issue.... but your post title was "biracial and multiracial Black people: are these considered a race" so people responded to that question more than the specific issue with this guy.

Honestly, speaking as a mixed-race and light-skinned woman, I have to agree with that guy... you can't speak for dark-skinned women since you are not one and don't identify as one. Saying you don't think they have a reason to be jealous is like white people telling Black people or other people of colour we don't need to worry about racism - how would they know, and how would you know?

Now, I'm not saying ANYONE should be jealous since it's not a productive way to feel... but on this specific issue, I can understand why some dark-skinned women sometimes feel resentful of light-skinned women, to an extent (having only experienced this from the light-skinned POV.) There is a lot of shadism in the Black community, which is the fault of white racism, not of light-skinned people, but we benefit from coming out on the top end of that. Because lighter-skinned/mixed people are seen as "closer" to white, we often get preferential treatment from whites, Blacks and others alike. The beauty standard for Black women is presented as the "light and curly" look - Beyonce, Rihanna, Halle Berry, etc. etc. etc. and women with this look are generally approached more by Black men, considered more attractive, etc. etc. etc.

I will admit in the past being resentful that it seemed to me at times that any white, blond woman (real or bottle blond) was automatically considered a step up in looks for being white and blond and many men, including Black men, would flock to them, because blond is presented as the ULTIMATE beauty standard. So I can likewise understand how darker-skinned Black women also feel that way about lighter-skinned women. It's unfortunate because we did not create this situation. But I think rather than get annoyed or say they have no right to feel the way they feel we should try to understand the reasoning behind the tension and do what we can to break down the barriers and promote a different beauty standard (or, how about no standard.)

And no, I don't think anyone is 100% Black, but I don't think people necessarily mean it literally in terms of bloodline - I think it's more a mentality or attitude.
Originally Posted by Amneris
I understand where u are coming from but IMO, i feel that they shouldn't. Being that I am light skinned, i don't consider myself better than a dark skinned woman since they some advantages.

due to their skin tone they do not have to worry about skin cancer like we do since they have high levels of melanin and also because they are just as beautiful too. When i stated my opinion I should not have spoken for dark skinned people but i was adding them into black people as a whole since they also said that black women were jealous of light skinned "non black" women.
Originally Posted by Hela
I am not saying that you personally feel you are better than dark-skinned women - I don't either - but it's not a matter of what you personally feel. It's a matter of from birth people scrutinize girl babies for how "fair" they are or how "good" their hair is and if they are mixed people will automatically say they are going to be beautiful.... it's the messages constantly sent by our culture that white is better than Black but IF you are Black, the lighter the better, which can eat at the self-esteem of SOME Black women - how could it not? just like the focus on blond hair and blue eyes used to eat at me and probably still does, somewhere deep down.

I don't see what skin cancer has to do with the discussion, but I think even light-skinned Black women, unless they are REALLY light, have plenty of natural protection. I am brown and I don't sunburn at all - I protect myself from the sun because I do hyperpigment on unexposed skin, but it's really not a huge concern of mine, nor do I think it was relevant to the discussion you were having. And while you are capable of seeing dark-skinned women as just as beautiful, the fact is that many people are not. If you look at most successful Black men, they're with white women, or if not white women, light-skinned Black women or other not-as-dark-skinned women of colour such as non-Black but non-white Latinas, Asians etc. far more than they are with dark-skinned Black women. Even the darker-skinned women who are said to be beautiful have real or fake European features (ie. Naomi Campbell with the long hair and dainty features) and are encouraged to relax their hair or wear weaves and so on. Dark-skinned women with natural hair are a pretty rare sight.
Originally Posted by Amneris
You misunderstood what I was talking about when I spoke of colored peoples attributes. I was telling you some of my reasons as to why dark skinned people should not worry about others....why they should be proud of themselves. I am well aware that most light skinned woman have melanin as well but when i was in that discussion i was simply speaking for the dark skinned people. Well unlike you I am darker than you and I burn in certain areas when i sit in the sun, but see what i was telling was some of the things that i said in the discussion that i had, so it is relevant since i was explaining some of the reasons why they need not be jealous.

I don't agree that almost all successful black men are with white women. I have seen some successful men with a woman of ebony by their side. Again in the end it's all about perception. Everybody has a different view on this.
You are who you are and that's all that matters.....


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I do appreciate everybody's opinion on this thread. It's always good to know that everybody doesn't have the same opinions or ideas on certain topics. It helps me to understand people just a lil bit more


You are who you are and that's all that matters.....


EMBRACE THE CURLY, THE KINKY....THE NATURAL!!!
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I choose to call myself biracial because I refuse to deny either parents contribution to my makeup. It would hurt my father to his core if I simply said I was Black. I've corrected people who have tried to insist I'm either black or white. I'm not black and I'm not white.

I have the hardest time understanding why some people have trouble with this. It's not dividing oneself into 'halves' it's acknowledging all areas of your racial makeup. I'm choosing to give credit where it is due.
THIS. I have to admit it does bother me when people go just by the colour of your skin. Obama, for example, is often called our first black president. Well, yes, technically, he is a president of colour. But what I don't understand is that people automatically deny his white heritage as well. Kudos to President Obama for not playing the race card--those were primarily his voters that made it about race.

It makes me think of Tiger Woods as well. Everyone denominates him as a black man. And yet he is only a quarter black. By all accounts, everyone should consider Fergie a black woman. Or me, for that matter. Anthropolically speaking, I would be considered black, white, and native (or, colloquial, black, white and latin). That said, I do not "look" black to a lot of people. The black genes only spaced themselves out to my booty, my lips and my hair! I do have an olive-skinned complexion and do get dark very, very easily, but the majority of the time, I am relatively fair.

One of my best friends is half white, half black. When her hair was relaxed, everyone thought she was white. Her facial features, her body type--everything about her "looked white". Well, she went natural, and her hair is a 4b. A lot of our black sistas joke around with her, saying that she looks like a white girl with a 'fro, and that her hair is nappier than theirs!

The point is, I believe that denying any part of your heritage, black, white, native, mongoloid--ANYTHING--is simply another form of unacceptance. And hey, isn't that a part of what going natural is about? Acceptance?

Yes. I am a Strong Black Woman. But I am also a Strong White Woman. And a Strong Latin Woman. Still, at the very core of it all, we are all Strong Women. Everything else? It's just semantics.
Originally Posted by notyouraveragecurl
ITA
You are who you are and that's all that matters.....


EMBRACE THE CURLY, THE KINKY....THE NATURAL!!!
my hair blog: http://public.fotki.com/Hela23462/
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But I notice that so often people who are highly attached to the "biracial" label are also highly attached to being Not Black, and will claim they or their kids "look white", which is often untrue, get upset and "correct" people who think they are Black, etc. I don't find that threatening, but I find it sad, and I don't think any of it moves us closer to ending racism or improving the state of affairs for people of colour. But, people have their reasons for doing what they want.
Originally Posted by Amneris
I can't speak to any of the unbolded part because I don't have kids, etc.. But I will speak to the bolded part because I see truth in it and some may characterize me in that way.

I've posted before and I will post again that the segment of the black community that insists that someone with two or more cultures AND races must call themselves black or else (1) be denying blackness, (2) be an uncle or aunt tom, (3) must be self hating, etc.. pretty much makes me want to run far and wide from that community. It's almost like a form of emotional blackmail that you can't be part or half black and claim the other side because it is "denying blackness." Every other group gets to be mixed and proud of it - asian/white, latino/asian, latino or native american/white, jewish/asian, etc.. etc... But if one of your parents is black, then that's the end of any recognition of a mixed background, including a mixed cultural heritage. And I do see it as enforcing the antebellum, slave era, one drop rule. And I reject it.

The issue of what a mixed person looks like (as an adult or child) raises a lot of separate issues as to how they will self-identify, which self-identification may change over time. I don't really feel like going into that. But I felt strongly enough about the above to post on this thread, which I also rated (1 star).
Originally Posted by love yourself first

In reference to the bold font:

This kind of attitude was very common in Brooklyn, N.Y.....and that's exactly why I left.

This kind of attitude is ALSO very common in the NAVY.....and that too is one of the many reasons why I got out of active duty....well along with the fact that they are very sexist as well.....lol
You are who you are and that's all that matters.....


EMBRACE THE CURLY, THE KINKY....THE NATURAL!!!
my hair blog: http://public.fotki.com/Hela23462/
PW: love

But I notice that so often people who are highly attached to the "biracial" label are also highly attached to being Not Black, and will claim they or their kids "look white", which is often untrue, get upset and "correct" people who think they are Black, etc. I don't find that threatening, but I find it sad, and I don't think any of it moves us closer to ending racism or improving the state of affairs for people of colour. But, people have their reasons for doing what they want.
Originally Posted by Amneris
I can't speak to any of the unbolded part because I don't have kids, etc.. But I will speak to the bolded part because I see truth in it and some may characterize me in that way.

I've posted before and I will post again that the segment of the black community that insists that someone with two or more cultures AND races must call themselves black or else (1) be denying blackness, (2) be an uncle or aunt tom, (3) must be self hating, etc.. pretty much makes me want to run far and wide from that community. It's almost like a form of emotional blackmail that you can't be part or half black and claim the other side because it is "denying blackness." Every other group gets to be mixed and proud of it - asian/white, latino/asian, latino or native american/white, jewish/asian, etc.. etc... But if one of your parents is black, then that's the end of any recognition of a mixed background, including a mixed cultural heritage. And I do see it as enforcing the antebellum, slave era, one drop rule. And I reject it.

The issue of what a mixed person looks like (as an adult or child) raises a lot of separate issues as to how they will self-identify, which self-identification may change over time. I don't really feel like going into that. But I felt strongly enough about the above to post on this thread, which I also rated (1 star).
Originally Posted by love yourself first
I must be lucky, because I haven't really met many Black people with that mentality - maybe Caribbean people treat this differently? Most Black people I know know that they are mixed somewhere down the line, and they have no issue with anyone celebrating a mixed or multicultural heritage. I have almost always felt loved, accepted and embraced by the Black community, without having to deny anything about who I am or how my family is.

I don't see it as an either-or choice. You can be multiracial and be Black, and any other culture you want. I see myself as multiracial, Black and Latina, for example. I think if you WANT to call yourself white you can too, but in most cases white people and others won't accept this. I don't see why a person who is mixed with Polish and Black can't say they are Polish or Black Polish or whatever - if they have a Polish name, speak Polish, know Polish traditions etc. then they are Polish - since when do Poles have to be only white? I also think that IF more people classed as people of colour identified as white, it might take some of the privilege and exclusivity away from it. I also think in different settings, people can have different identities. In no way am I suggesting that anyone with some Black ancestry should be forced or guilted to ONLY call themself Black or not to acknowledge any other heritage. However, if they ONLY call themself biracial, I personally think they are just adding confusion and not unity. Just my opinion - I don't speak for all Black people.
Originally Posted by Amneris
ITA
You are who you are and that's all that matters.....


EMBRACE THE CURLY, THE KINKY....THE NATURAL!!!
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I had a very heated discussion in a thread on another site about if dark skinned black woman should be jealous of biracial, multiracial or non black women. I stated that there is no reason for them to be jealous since we all have unique standpoints to ourselves. After I made my statements some guy from Africa told me, along with a couple of others, that I have no right to speak on this because I am a "mutt". It really bothered me since I consider myself black first and foremost. They also informed me that majority of black people are dark skinned. I agreed with that statement but also tried to make it known that there are other tones when it comes to black people, that dark skinned people are not the only people that make up the black community. They came back to me saying that "those" people have no right to speak since they may be biracial or multiracial. I informed them that "the last time I checked if you had black in you then in you are considered black first an foremost before anything else". I mean there are only like a couple of different classifications of races.( I can't say how many with confidence since the numbers have been disputed for a long time) I do know that they reside in the following:
Asians
Blacks
Whites

I am aware that there are others but I will not speak on what i am not sure of. To make a long story short, the same person who told me that I could not speak for black women (the African guy), well turns out that he isn't even black. It really hit a nerve that somebody else came at me like I was saying something wrong. I swear I try to refrain from snapping on people when it comes to situations like this but they make it so hard for me not to. Especially when it comes to other black people telling me that I'm not "black enough" to speak for the black community. Ugh!!!!
Originally Posted by Hela

Here are my thoughts, sorry if this is repeating anything anybody else has said, I haven't yet read the thread, just wanted to reply to the OP. Clearly the African guy doesn't know what he was talking about. Even IF he couldn't see that many Black/White biracial people in America have lived as Blacks, been treated as Blacks and think of ourselves as Black, especially if we have evident African admixture, you were most definitely entitled to speak on that question becuase I believe it required two point of views. That of the darker Black woman and that of biracial, multiracial, and non-Black women. Now I personally would have listened especially closely to the opinion of the darker Black woman, just becuase I have found the people who experience the prejudice or feel the jealousy may know more about it than the people who they are supposed to be jealous of. It's human nature. It's kind of what has been happening on this board, we have had some racial topics recently pertaining to how discriminated against Black people are in our society and it's not that White members opinions aren't valid but they aren't the ones who would know the most about it usually.

There was a similiar question on a mixed race forum I belong to that asked "Do Black Men prefer Lighter skinned or Mixed race women over darker skinned Black women?" I felt completely entitled to answer but I fully admitted all I could add was inconclusive becuase it was from the point of view of the supposed preferred group. I haven't really ever had a problem getting a Black boyfriend but that's inconclusive becuase it doesn't mean Black men prefer me to darker skinned Black women. It did add some weight to "Yes Black men prefer lighter skinned women" if only becuase I haven't had hardly any experiences where a Black boy dissed me (and when they did it was usually for someone yet lighter than me or he preferred White women), and even less where they have dissed me for someone darker than me. The group that could really answer that question of yours and the question I answered would be darker Black women. They would be the ones most likely to notice any prejudice against them.

And the term mutt indicates this guy had some prejudice towards mixed race people. Some mixed people use it endearingly about themselves (President Obama has) but when outsiders use it (like Kanye West referring to the preponderance of light and bright dancers in music videos and how he uses them to sell his music despite thinking of them as animals) it usually means whatever is going to come out of their mouths next is not flattering for Multiracial people. Yes, people we have officially reached that point where Mixed Race is becoming legitimately a group/race, you can tell when people start to insult us. You know you have arrived when you have haters.
Originally Posted by KinkyKeeper

Thank you for your opinion. Most people told me it wasn't my place because I'm not dark skinned

However

I have witnessed this abuse and also the OP of that thread wasn't just referring to dark skinned black women.....they were referring to ALL Black women so I felt I had enough right to say what I had to say especially since I have had front seat experiences with racism and prejudice due to how i look.
You are who you are and that's all that matters.....


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Feels like I just posted 8 different things but I just found a good article:
http://www.bc.edu/bc_org/rvp/pubaf/chronicle/v11/f13/rockquemore.html

Biracial Identity: Beyond Black and White

Sociologist's expertise built on experience, not just scholarly inquiry

By Sean Smith
Chronicle Editor

The man in the next seat had been eyeing her furtively for a while, so Asst. Prof. Kerry Ann Rockquemore (Sociology) figured it was only a matter of time before the question came.

Asst. Prof. Kerry Ann Rockquemore (Sociology): "...There is still a social reality for race that we have yet to come to grips with. If you have a racial identity that does not neatly fit into this reality, how do you experience the world? How do others see you? How do you see yourself?" (Photos by Gary Gilbert).

"What are you?"
There was neither malice nor menace in her fellow airplane passenger's voice, but Rockquemore - recalling the event in a recent interview - knew what he was asking: He wanted to know her racial and ethnic background.
The daughter of a black father and white mother, Rockquemore was no stranger to questions and misperceptions about her appearance. That very day, one person had spoken Spanish to her, apparently thinking she was Latina, and a casual remark by the attendant at her flight check-in indicated that he took her for Italian.
"What are you?"
Trying to be polite, Rockquemore replied, "Why don't you guess?"
The man thought for a minute, mused aloud about her green eyes, black hair and freckles, then announced, "You must be Irish!"
Rockquemore laughs at the memory of that exchange, yet the question that prompted it is the essence of her work as a scholar, and a possessor, of biracial identity.
Through her research, including her co-authored 2002 book Beyond Black: Biracial Identity in America, Rockquemore seeks to shed light on the social and personal experiences of America's growing biracial population. The rise of interracial marriages in the United States during the past three decades, Rockquemore says, and the visibility of celebrities such as golfer Tiger Woods and movie stars Vin Diesel and Halle Barry have helped to create more acceptance of biracial people.
But race is still a troubling subject for America, as evidenced by recent controversies over affirmative action policies and Trent Lott's remarks on segregation. The perspective of multiracial people, she says, is an important component for dialogue on race - and on the whole nature of identity itself.
"As a society, we're at an awkward place," she said. "Our old ideas about race and racial categorization are unraveling, and being replaced by new ideas that have a more scientific basis. We are no longer so bound by the 'one-drop rule,' which classified mixed-race children according to the racial group of the lower-status parent - in other words, you could never be considered 'pure' white, no matter your appearance. Racial identity is something far more fluid than it used to be.
"But there is still a social reality for race that we have yet to come to grips with. If you have a racial identity that does not neatly fit into this reality, how do you experience the world? How do others see you? How do you see yourself? 'What are you?'"

Pondering questions about biracial identity is not merely an academic or rhetorical exercise, according to Rockquemore: The matter of whether a person identifies him or herself as having a biracial identity can have sociopolitical ramifications.
A proposal to add a multiracial category to the 2000 federal census, she points out, set off a contentious debate before it was rejected. Supporters of the new category said its addition would help to accurately represent shifting demographic trends while also providing a true reflection of biracial people's understanding of their identity. Opponents argued that a multiracial category would ultimately make it more difficult to monitor racial discrimination and enforce civil rights legislation.
The census controversy might be seen as an indication of the growing self-advocacy among biracial people, especially those in their 20s or younger. Susan Lambe, co-leader of the Boston chapter of SWIRL, a social and educational support group for families, couples and individuals of mixed race, says that unlike in the past, "passing for white" is less of a concern for biracial persons.
"You have more of a choice now as to how you identify yourself," said Lambe, whose parents are white and Asian. "Because of that, those of us who are mixed or biracial want to create our own community, instead of being forced into a category."
The choice to which Lambe refers, and the factors that influence it, are explored by Rockquemore and University of Alabama-Huntsville Assistant Professor of Sociology David Brunsma in Beyond Black. Their project focused on offspring of black-white unions, she explains, "because blacks and whites continue to be the two groups with the greatest social distance, the most spatial separation and the strongest taboos against interracial marriage."
Rockquemore and Brunsma's research used survey data and in-depth interviews with biracial undergraduates attending Detroit-area colleges. Those conversations give voice to the complexities of biracial identity, and how it can be influenced by physical appearance, friends and acquaintances, surroundings, situation and other factors.
Chris, for example, described herself as "biracial, but I experience the world as a black woman," largely because of her appearance. Kathy, more light-skinned and with features most likely to identify her as white, talked of being stigmatized by many black students who interpret her biracial self-identification as trying to establish herself as "better than" or "beyond" black.
the rest here:
http://boards.mulatto.org/post?id=86...acial+children
Originally Posted by KinkyKeeper
I'm loving this article. I love what was said at the end, that even though she is biracial she still experiences the world as a black woman. I completely relate to that.
You are who you are and that's all that matters.....


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You misunderstood what I was talking about when I spoke of colored peoples attributes. I was telling you some of my reasons as to why dark skinned people should not worry about others....why they should be proud of themselves.
Originally Posted by Hela
I strongly agree with this as well, although I don't understand why the entire "you think you're better because you're light" idea was brought in to the discussion because no one has mentioned that except people who want to discount the idea that biracial-black-mixed are born automatically "pre-programmed" with this belief-- maybe in times gone by this mind game worked, but by now I think we have enough sense to know that skin tone does not denote "good or bad", whether we grew up in more or less black/diverse environments or not. I don't think that is true or fair to say as a generalization about mixed race folks. I have heard snide remarks by some mixed people but I find even this also to be a minority within a minority.

Hope that makes sense and that stating and being mixed identified doesn't take anything away from anyone else's identification.
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You misunderstood what I was talking about when I spoke of colored peoples attributes. I was telling you some of my reasons as to why dark skinned people should not worry about others....why they should be proud of themselves.
Originally Posted by Hela
I strongly agree with this as well, although I don't understand why the entire "you think you're better because you're light" idea was brought in to the discussion because no one has mentioned that except people who want to discount the idea that biracial-black-mixed are born automatically "pre-programmed" with this belief-- maybe in times gone by this mind game worked, but by now I think we have enough sense to know that skin tone does not denote "good or bad", whether we grew up in more or less black/diverse environments or not. I don't think that is true or fair to say as a generalization about mixed race folks. I have heard snide remarks by some mixed people but I find even this also to be a minority within a minority.

Hope that makes sense and that stating and being mixed identified doesn't take anything away from anyone else's identification.
Originally Posted by BekkaPoo
I thought that the OP brought up the lighter is better issue because it was brought up to her by someone outside this site. No one on this thread has said that, I agree, and I don't think anyone has suggested that they did.

I think the OP had good intentions in what she said re: dark-skinned people, but I can see why it was not well-received at the other end of a computer - they probably felt it was dismissive of their experience or spoken out of ignorance of some of the social problems dark-skinned people face.

I do think that, while no one is born pre-programmed to think anything, from a very, very young age we (and by we I mean all human beings) are all subtly socialized to believe in white supremacy and then within that there are various gradations so that as Black people, or people mixed with Black ancestry, we also do learn that light-skinned is better, to greater or lesser degrees. Some of us grow up to recognize and reject this thinking, others internalize it, most of us internalize it to some degree or another anyway. I think that's just the reality of a racist society. It may be more subtle than in past times, but it is still very much there. If you have the sense to recognize it as nonsense, honestly, you are far more enlightened than a lot of people.

I also just want to reiterate just in case anyone doubts it that I don't care how people self-identify and I support your (gy) right to identify as you choose. But I see the self-identification issue as a personal one, and while self-acceptance and self-respect are important and are a necessary first step before anything else can happen, the socio-political issues around the construct of race are more important to me, and I feel that discussions about self-identity too often derail the more important discussions about the social and political realities. So that's where I'm coming from... not from any feelings of hostility or resentment or feeling threatened by people who self-identify differently than I do. I think we have more in common than we differ and I think we should all work together.

eta: I'm really glad that we have had a respectful discussion the whole way through with no personal attacks, and have tried to see the other POV, even on a highly emotional and personal and painful issue. That speaks really well for us all. I'm sure that if a lot of us met in real life we would have a blast, and I respect everyone's perspective and appreciate that you all felt comfortable enough to share. I think when this issue comes up IRL, it's important for me to remember that the personal aspect of this is very important to a lot of people and that if they feel that that is being swept aside there isn't going to be kuch progress made.
Get used to me. Black, confident, cocky; my name, not yours; my religion, not yours; my goals, my own; get used to me. -Muhammad Ali












Last edited by Amneris; 08-08-2009 at 10:59 AM.
But who is to say I can't be of more help to "the Black community" when I see myself and my place in it more clearly?
We're not talking about how people see themselves though. We're talking about how people label themselves to the world outside. When people like Malcolm X fought for the rights of people, he didn't start by arguing the rights for the multi-racial, a group of which he was a member. He said if you lift people up from the bottom (the black race), all the races move up with them.

I understand that multi-racial people feel that they suffer unique problems (I am multi-racial). But as long as there are people who suffer MORE than me, I check myself to put my problems into perspective and see what I have in common with them rather than stress my own individuality. But that's my opinion and everyone is entitled to their own.
Originally Posted by Xyz

You will have to clarify the above statements if I am wrong in how I am interpreting them. We are not talking about how people see themselves though (I am) We are talking about how people label themselves to the world outside.

1. I don't see how these two things have to be mutually exclusive or where the difference is. I am taking it to mean the major difference between the debators on this thread which has been
Multiracial/Biracial people: This is how I feel, this is my inner reality that needs to be recognized

Those in support of ODR: It might hurt the big picture/Black community

2. And if that's the view you are taking I can see what I said was too introspective to what you are talking about. But I am coming from the perspective that the needs and wants of individual and the community of multiracial people is more important than flattening themselves for the big picture so that is what we are talking about, or at least I am.

3. And that's IF the big picture is that Blacks are at the bottom. Without research and acknowledgement of Mixed people who is to say they aren't at the bottom and Black people shoud be calling themselves Mixed to help them? Bit quick to assume Blacks are currently below Biracials socially. That Freakonomics study along with some other things I have seen/researched since looking into the part Black Biracial community has made me question how well Biracial children/people are making it in society.

4. With that in mind who is to say I am not reaching up from the bottom by calling myself Multiracial and dedicating myself to Multiracial issues? And if even if recently mixed people are not at the bottom they are still my concern more so than the Black community. Hard to imagine for some but at this point in my life I am more moved by the stories of Mixed people and what they been through than the story of Black people. Those are my people.

5. And EVEN if Black people were at the bottom or it would help the Black community to flatten ourselves to be only a part of them- Back to the more important small picture, my question is at what price to their mental health?

The White Man...
"If I have a cup of coffee that is too strong for me because it is too black, I weaken it by pouring cream into it. I integrate it with cream. If I keep pouring enough cream in the coffee, pretty soon the entire flavor of the coffee is changed; the very nature of the coffee is changed. If enough cream is poured in, eventually you don't even know that I had coffee in this cup. This is what happened with the March on Washington. The whites didn't integrate it; they infiltrated it. Whites joined it; they engulfed it; they became so much a part of it, it lost its original flavor. It ceased to be a black march; it ceased to be militant; it ceased to be angry; it ceased to be impatient. In fact, it ceased to be a march."

"hated every drop of that white rapist's blood that is in me."
Originally Posted by Malcolm X
That first quote is a little close to talking about micegenation, I wouldn't be surprised if that's how he felt about Blacks mixing with Whites, through intercourse and not just integration in public places, at that time in his life. He also often made sweeping negative generalizations of White people (devils, uncaring, etc) and that has to have some mental impact on you being part White. So it's then not surprising to hear at some point he hated his White blood (not saying rapist blood isn't going to cause some inner turmoil but at some point that turmoil is only going to hurt you since it's inside you). So yeah he did some great things for the Black community (we will have to agree to disagree that it was necessary he think or present himself as completely Black in order to do this, I fail to see how one has anything to do with the other) but at what cost to HIS mental and evntually physical health?

And that is the crux of the difference of where we are coming from XYZ. You see what Malcolm did for Blacks, I see Malcolm. And if X is your ideal view of what Mixed people should be, I can see we are clearly on opposite sides in this. No thank you, he was definitely nobody Biracial and recently mixed people should be looking up to for inspiration on being Mixed in my opinion.
He was very unhealthy man in that respect, from what I have read.


My Fotki

Last edited by KinkyKeeper; 08-08-2009 at 03:28 PM.
You misunderstood what I was talking about when I spoke of colored peoples attributes. I was telling you some of my reasons as to why dark skinned people should not worry about others....why they should be proud of themselves.
Originally Posted by Hela
I strongly agree with this as well, although I don't understand why the entire "you think you're better because you're light" idea was brought in to the discussion because no one has mentioned that except people who want to discount the idea that biracial-black-mixed are born automatically "pre-programmed" with this belief-- maybe in times gone by this mind game worked, but by now I think we have enough sense to know that skin tone does not denote "good or bad", whether we grew up in more or less black/diverse environments or not. I don't think that is true or fair to say as a generalization about mixed race folks. I have heard snide remarks by some mixed people but I find even this also to be a minority within a minority.

Hope that makes sense and that stating and being mixed identified doesn't take anything away from anyone else's identification.
Originally Posted by BekkaPoo
I thought that the OP brought up the lighter is better issue because it was brought up to her by someone outside this site. No one on this thread has said that, I agree, and I don't think anyone has suggested that they did.

I think the OP had good intentions in what she said re: dark-skinned people, but I can see why it was not well-received at the other end of a computer - they probably felt it was dismissive of their experience or spoken out of ignorance of some of the social problems dark-skinned people face.

I do think that, while no one is born pre-programmed to think anything, from a very, very young age we (and by we I mean all human beings) are all subtly socialized to believe in white supremacy and then within that there are various gradations so that as Black people, or people mixed with Black ancestry, we also do learn that light-skinned is better, to greater or lesser degrees. Some of us grow up to recognize and reject this thinking, others internalize it, most of us internalize it to some degree or another anyway. I think that's just the reality of a racist society. It may be more subtle than in past times, but it is still very much there. If you have the sense to recognize it as nonsense, honestly, you are far more enlightened than a lot of people.

I also just want to reiterate just in case anyone doubts it that I don't care how people self-identify and I support your (gy) right to identify as you choose. But I see the self-identification issue as a personal one, and while self-acceptance and self-respect are important and are a necessary first step before anything else can happen, the socio-political issues around the construct of race are more important to me, and I feel that discussions about self-identity too often derail the more important discussions about the social and political realities. So that's where I'm coming from... not from any feelings of hostility or resentment or feeling threatened by people who self-identify differently than I do. I think we have more in common than we differ and I think we should all work together.

eta: I'm really glad that we have had a respectful discussion the whole way through with no personal attacks, and have tried to see the other POV, even on a highly emotional and personal and painful issue. That speaks really well for us all. I'm sure that if a lot of us met in real life we would have a blast, and I respect everyone's perspective and appreciate that you all felt comfortable enough to share. I think when this issue comes up IRL, it's important for me to remember that the personal aspect of this is very important to a lot of people and that if they feel that that is being swept aside there isn't going to be kuch progress made.
Originally Posted by Amneris

Ok. I agree it's nice nobody got personal.


My Fotki

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