Transwoman in all-female RAD class

mandatoryfun · 11-01-2009, 12:15 PM

I recently heard that a transwoman (a male-to-female transsexual/transgender person) on my college campus is not being allowed to participate in the rape agression defense class on account of her male anatomy.

What do you think? Should certain spaces be reserved for female-born women only? Or should spaces be open to all those who identify as female?

newcurly · 11-01-2009, 12:30 PM

Wow, that's really terrible. Especially given the higher incidence of violence against LGBT folks

- she should be allowed to participate.

The New Black · 11-01-2009, 12:37 PM

If he's pre-op, I can see the concern. There may be female rape survivors in there who don't agree that he's not a man even though he has male anatomy.

misspam · 11-01-2009, 12:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phoenix

If he's pre-op, I can see the concern. There may be female rape survivors in there who don't agree that he's not a man even though he has male anatomy.

I agree.

zmanzzzz · 11-01-2009, 01:03 PM

can size?

mrspoppers · 11-01-2009, 01:12 PM

I think if the person self-identifies as a woman and is taking female hormones, it doesn't matter if they still have male anatomy, at least in terms of the law. Many people that undergo sex changes do not have reconstructive surgery to their genitalia, due to the high cost.

I'm not sure why your university cares. I understand the point Phoenix made; I just don't agree that it's valid. Considering the amount of violence perpetrated against GLBT people of both genders, I'm sure this person would greatly benefit from the class.

mandatoryfun · 11-01-2009, 01:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrspoppers

I think if the person self-identifies as a woman and is taking female hormones, it doesn't matter if they still have male anatomy, at least in terms of the law. Many people that undergo sex changes do not have reconstructive surgery to their genitalia, due to the high cost.

I'm not sure why your university cares. I understand the point Phoenix made; I just don't agree that it's valid. Considering the amount of violence perpetrated against GLBT people of both genders, I'm sure this person would greatly benefit from the class.

While she identifies as a woman, this is only in relation to the way she dresses. She hasn't assumed a female name and she hasn't been taking hormones.

LikeAustralia · 11-01-2009, 01:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mandatoryfun

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrspoppers

I think if the person self-identifies as a woman and is taking female hormones, it doesn't matter if they still have male anatomy, at least in terms of the law. Many people that undergo sex changes do not have reconstructive surgery to their genitalia, due to the high cost.

I'm not sure why your university cares. I understand the point Phoenix made; I just don't agree that it's valid. Considering the amount of violence perpetrated against GLBT people of both genders, I'm sure this person would greatly benefit from the class.

While she identifies as a woman, this is only in relation to the way she dresses. She hasn't assumed a female name and she hasn't been taking hormones.

How do you know? Is that truly the university's business?

If she wants to take the class, I think she should be able to.

BB · 11-01-2009, 01:46 PM

As much as I hate labels and the like, if the person in question isn't taking hormones, etc. they are still biologically/technically a man even if they identify as a woman. Transexuals have had a sex change already and are different from transgendered people.

This is really a complex issue and we haven't come far enough as a society to deal with it in a rational way.

mandatoryfun · 11-01-2009, 01:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LikeAustralia

Quote:

Originally Posted by mandatoryfun

While she identifies as a woman, this is only in relation to the way she dresses. She hasn't assumed a female name and she hasn't been taking hormones.

How do you know? Is that truly the university's business?

If she wants to take the class, I think she should be able to.

Because we are acquaintances and she is pretty open about her sexual identity.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BB

As much as I hate labels and the like, if the person in question isn't taking hormones, etc. they are still biologically/technically a man even if they identify as a woman. Transexuals have had a sex change already and are different from transgendered people.

This is really a complex issue and we haven't come far enough as a society to deal with it in a rational way.

Please don't think I was trying to be disrespectful. I agree that this is a complex issue and I can't say that I know much about it; I used the term transwoman because this is how she refers to herself.

shorticurlz · 11-01-2009, 02:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mandatoryfun

While she identifies as a woman, this is only in relation to the way she dresses. She hasn't assumed a female name and she hasn't been taking hormones.

I would be concerned about a man's size and strength vs a woman. Self defense classes usually pair you up with a partner so you can practice moves and men are typically stronger. Other than that I don't see a problem with having a transwoman in the class. I guess one way to settle it would be to allow the women in the class to vote on it. If they feel comfortable then, why not?

rudeechick · 11-01-2009, 02:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by newcurly

Wow, that's really terrible. Especially given the higher incidence of violence against LGBT folks

- she should be allowed to participate.

Great point!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phoenix

If he's pre-op, I can see the concern. There may be female rape survivors in there who don't agree that he's not a man even though he has male anatomy.

Another great point!

RedCatWaves · 11-01-2009, 02:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zmanzzzz

can size?

What? Are you making a smartass remark about breast size?

ninja dog · 11-01-2009, 03:11 PM

I believe "can" refers to rear ends, not breasts.

Curlyminx · 11-01-2009, 03:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrspoppers

I think if the person self-identifies as a woman and is taking female hormones, it doesn't matter if they still have male anatomy, at least in terms of the law. Many people that undergo sex changes do not have reconstructive surgery to their genitalia, due to the high cost.

I'm not sure why your university cares. I understand the point Phoenix made; I just don't agree that it's valid. Considering the amount of violence perpetrated against GLBT people of both genders, I'm sure this person would greatly benefit from the class.

I agree completely.

So are gay men not allowed in this class either?

afrosheenqueen · 11-01-2009, 03:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RedCatWaves

Quote:

Originally Posted by zmanzzzz

can size?

What? Are you making a smartass remark about breast size?

It's an Fantasy Football Today forum tradition. When they talk about women they always ask for the breast size. They think it's funny.

Curlyminx · 11-01-2009, 03:47 PM

Oh. I guess I don't read titles. No gay men because it's all female. Ok. Sorry.

Now i still think that anyone who identifies as a transwoman be allowed.

Myradella3 · 11-01-2009, 04:07 PM

I think that the class should be for anatomical women. When the transition to woman is complete, the person should be welcomed in the class.

~Ghost Poster~ · 11-01-2009, 04:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by afrosheenqueen

Quote:

Originally Posted by RedCatWaves

Quote:

Originally Posted by zmanzzzz

can size?

What? Are you making a smartass remark about breast size?

It's an Fantasy Football Today forum tradition. When they talk about women they always ask for the breast size. They think it's funny.

Yeah, but, meh, even they don't even like him over there, either.

Pretty bad when even a board full of losers doesn't accept you. In this case, two negatives don't equal a positive.

wild~hair · 11-01-2009, 04:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phoenix

If he's pre-op, I can see the concern. There may be female rape survivors in there who don't agree that he's not a man even though he has male anatomy.

Double negatives are tricky, but I think you're saying they would think that she a man, because she has male anatomy? And that having a man in class would be disturbing to them? Is that right?

If I am understanding you, I would disagree with you for this reason:

I recently took a self-defense class. It was advised that any survivors not take the class until they had had sufficient time since the attack [how long of a time is different for everybody].

The reason is because these types of classes can stir up memories and trigger flashbacks.

I would think that if a survivor gave enough time to that process before participating in a class such as this, they would be able to roll with this type of situation as well, or anything else that came up in case.

And a lot of different topics could come up in this kind of class. People in classes like this ask questions about all sorts of scenarios, you just never know what someone is going to say, what their particular fear is. So you have to be a little bit in a "ready for anything" type of mentality to do these kinds of classes.

Even my class, which was plain old self defense, some of the things discusses set me a bit on edge. And I was pretty clear-headed going in.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Myradella3

I think that the class should be for anatomical women. When the transition to woman is complete, the person should be welcomed in the class.

But what if the person never is able to make the transition, due to the aforementioned high cost? Especially as a college student, it seems as though that would be a barrier that wouldn't be crossed very quickly.