Medium texture, normal porosity and elasticity...let's share!

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texture-medium/fine, porosity-normal, elasticity-normal

I haven't been on this site since Sept 2012. I logged on today and realized that I first went on my CG journey in 07/2011. WOW, time flies.

After first trying the Deva products, I found that my hair did not like protein. While everyone had rave reviews for Deva, it left my hair feeling like a brillo pad.

I conditioned like crazy, switched to products with NO protein, and my hair improved (as much as it can in HOT/HUMID Houston). A couple of months ago I Chopped 6 inches off ( it was mid-back) and instead of improving my hair, my hair got worse. Although it felt soft, it was always frizzy (looked frizzy even when wet) and now my 3a/3b curls were looking more like 2c/3a. It finally dawned on me today what the problem could be... LACK of Protein. I did a protein treatment today and although I cannot say that my hair is super curly, I did get some of my bounce back and I am noticing much less frizz. Hmmm... go figure.

Throughout this time though, the products that I use have not changed. I still love all the products in my signature (GVP Conditioning Balm as well). I guess I will just have to do a protein treatment maybe once or twice a month.

KCCC is a bit heavy for my weak curl pattern, but it is the only gel that does not leave my hair feeling sticky or coated so i keep using it. I still haven't tried Curl Keeper although I have been dying to forever. Maybe I will splurge this summer.
2c/3a

Texture: Medium-Fine
Porosity: Normal
Elasticity: Normal

Poo: Kinky-Curly Come Clean
Co-Wash:Suave Naturals Waterfall
RO: GVP Conditioning Balm, TreSemme Naturals Vibrantly Smooth
LI: KCKT
Stylers: KCCC, Frizz -Free Volumizing Foam

CG since July 2011
I hope your hair improves and gets back to "normal" soon.
You just reminded me I probably need to do a protein treatment too....and possibly a DT.
Still using the products in my siggy with success. I need to go through all my extras and get rid of the products I don't use anymore.
3a (normal-porosity/elasticity/density)
Cleanse: CHS TS+oil, poo bars, Sevi pumpkin poo, Co-wash
LI/RO:MD RCLI, GDLI, Andalou naturals -GVPCB, DB pumpkin, Tresemmé Naturals
Stylers: LALSG, Volumax styling, CHS CK, BRHG, KCCC, Gel-les'C, JC Spiralicious, AOMM, CJPP, SSCEJ

$5 off 1st order under $40, $10 off over $40...at iherb use code KEY066
curlsnswirls: I'm wondering if you still use the Truepolaris FSG or just the BB? I've been considering BB' s FSG or Mudd for awhile, but the Truepolaris curly gel looks intriguing. Do you use the custom version of either? If so, what do you add?

We aren't perfect hair twins, but we do have similar properties; mine is fine, normal to low porosity, normal elasticity. I live in rainy Washington State so our climate is different. I also have to be very careful with protein and I have to avoid glycerin completely. I have had the most success with Jessicurl Too Shea (RO/LI) and Weekly Deep treatment (RO), but most of her styling products have glycerin so I can't use them. I really like the JC Confident coils( JCCC), but I get white flakes by the end of the day. That's why I thought I might like the Truepolaris, since it has Mag Sulfate in it like the JCCC. My hair seems to really like it. My favorite gels are Uncle Funky' s Daughter Curly Magic ( UFDCM) and CJ Pattern Pusha (CJPP), but UFDCM is very expensive with shipping (you get a nice large bottle though) and CJPP gives me inconsistent results. I hope you don't mind if I "stalk" you a little bit.
3a, baby fine i/ii, low to normal porosity, protein sensitive
Mod CG since 5/12, from rainy Western WA
dislikes: glycerin, wheat protein
Likes: moisture, Mag Sulfate
Poo: Elucence Moisture Acidifying Shampoo
Cond: CJCR, VO5 Clarifying Conditioner
LI: JC WDT, CJ CR
Style: Loma Curvature Curvy Cream, True Polaris Protein Free Truly curly styling gel (Etsy), Sweet Curls flax seed defining gel (Etsy)
curlsnswirls: I'm wondering if you still use the Truepolaris FSG or just the BB? I've been considering BB' s FSG or Mudd for awhile, but the Truepolaris curly gel looks intriguing. Do you use the custom version of either? If so, what do you add?

We aren't perfect hair twins, but we do have similar properties; mine is fine, normal to low porosity, normal elasticity. I live in rainy Washington State so our climate is different. I also have to be very careful with protein and I have to avoid glycerin completely. I have had the most success with Jessicurl Too Shea (RO/LI) and Weekly Deep treatment (RO), but most of her styling products have glycerin so I can't use them. I really like the JC Confident coils( JCCC), but I get white flakes by the end of the day. That's why I thought I might like the Truepolaris, since it has Mag Sulfate in it like the JCCC. My hair seems to really like it. My favorite gels are Uncle Funky' s Daughter Curly Magic ( UFDCM) and CJ Pattern Pusha (CJPP), but UFDCM is very expensive with shipping (you get a nice large bottle though) and CJPP gives me inconsistent results. I hope you don't mind if I "stalk" you a little bit.
Originally Posted by ltdeforrest
Replied to your PM .
I forgot to mention, I LOVE tresseme naturals moisturizing conditioner. I use it as a rinse out mainly but also as a co-wash and a leave in. Still loving my TruePolaris FSG and BB's FSG and mudd. TruePoaris I get her regular formula...BB's I prefer the "foolproof" version. HTH.
I'm also liking UFDCM and Curl Queen. Another favorite is KCCC. I've only tried CJPP once or twice, so nt sure about that. AOMM is good as well.
LandenMinkowski likes this.
3a (normal-porosity/elasticity/density)
Cleanse: CHS TS+oil, poo bars, Sevi pumpkin poo, Co-wash
LI/RO:MD RCLI, GDLI, Andalou naturals -GVPCB, DB pumpkin, Tresemmé Naturals
Stylers: LALSG, Volumax styling, CHS CK, BRHG, KCCC, Gel-les'C, JC Spiralicious, AOMM, CJPP, SSCEJ

$5 off 1st order under $40, $10 off over $40...at iherb use code KEY066
Added a couple new Stylers!
3a (normal-porosity/elasticity/density)
Cleanse: CHS TS+oil, poo bars, Sevi pumpkin poo, Co-wash
LI/RO:MD RCLI, GDLI, Andalou naturals -GVPCB, DB pumpkin, Tresemmé Naturals
Stylers: LALSG, Volumax styling, CHS CK, BRHG, KCCC, Gel-les'C, JC Spiralicious, AOMM, CJPP, SSCEJ

$5 off 1st order under $40, $10 off over $40...at iherb use code KEY066
Out of curiosity, how often do you guys do a PT/DT? I'm still trying to figure out my moisture/protein balance and I think it would help to work out a "routine" that seems common for my hair type
2b/2c--Dry climate
Medium texture/Normal Elasticity/Normal Porosity
High density

Current Routine:
Cleanser/Co-wash: VO5/AIA Coconut Co-wash
RO: GVPCB
LI: Yes to Carrots Pampering Conditioner

Super Soaker
Styler: Homemade FSG with a small bit of coconut oil and LALSG
DT/PT: CJCR, GVP Hair Reconstructor or Ion Reconstructor


This probably won't help you, but I'm pretty inconsistent when it comes to PT or DT's. I was doing them about once every 7-10 days and my hair loved it but somewhere along the way I got busy, distracted, lazy....and now just do them when I think about it. I kinda go according to how my hair feels.

When im consistent, I like to do atleast a DT once a week and a protein maybe every 10 days. I do use products and conditioners with protein so don't do PT's that often. This reminds me I need to purchase some CJ Repair me, I've heard great things about it. Sometimes instead of a DT I do a heavy oiling with either coconut oil or EVOO. I slather my hair and let it sit for about an hour and then wash as normal. My hair loves it!
3a (normal-porosity/elasticity/density)
Cleanse: CHS TS+oil, poo bars, Sevi pumpkin poo, Co-wash
LI/RO:MD RCLI, GDLI, Andalou naturals -GVPCB, DB pumpkin, Tresemmé Naturals
Stylers: LALSG, Volumax styling, CHS CK, BRHG, KCCC, Gel-les'C, JC Spiralicious, AOMM, CJPP, SSCEJ

$5 off 1st order under $40, $10 off over $40...at iherb use code KEY066
Tried the L.A. looks power spikes gel over moptop yesterday and my hair turned out very nice..soft and shiny!!! I love that it has no glycerin.(altough my hair tolerates it in moderate amounts)....don't care for the scent, although it doesn't linger after hair is dry. I also picked up a bottle of LALSG to try out one more time...the bottle I tried before was very old. I'm willing to give it another go since its so cheap. I want to try the L.A. looks nutra gel but can't find it locally. I may break down and order it online. I really like to have inexpensive products I can get locally just in case I run out of my good stuff. I picked up one more styler, SM smoothie. I plan to use it as a curl cream.
Anyone else use the SM smoothie? How do you use it and what is your favorite combo?? Also any of the LA gels..thanks!

After testing out the LA gels, smoothie and recently ordered Mop C curl cream...I should be done experimenting for a while.
I've realized I keep coming back to my good old favorites that do not let me down. There are some products that I just had to try but again, want to stick to my favorites.
I'm also so excited that iherb carries kinky curly products!!!! The whole foods I have bought mine from before is almost an hour away, so this makes it nice..plus they have discount codes and you can earn points.
On with the experimenting.......
3a (normal-porosity/elasticity/density)
Cleanse: CHS TS+oil, poo bars, Sevi pumpkin poo, Co-wash
LI/RO:MD RCLI, GDLI, Andalou naturals -GVPCB, DB pumpkin, Tresemmé Naturals
Stylers: LALSG, Volumax styling, CHS CK, BRHG, KCCC, Gel-les'C, JC Spiralicious, AOMM, CJPP, SSCEJ

$5 off 1st order under $40, $10 off over $40...at iherb use code KEY066
Out of curiosity, how often do you guys do a PT/DT? I'm still trying to figure out my moisture/protein balance and I think it would help to work out a "routine" that seems common for my hair type
Originally Posted by morninglorie
My protein treatments are far and few between and they're pretty lite at that. I do a DT about every 10-20 days.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2
3b-ish... normal to low porosity....med. texture
Wash: Desert Essence Coconut shampoo, Acure argon shampoo
Deep Trestment: Nature's Nectars deep conditioner/styler
Condition: Nature's Nectars luv-n-a-bottle, Nature's Gate pomegranate sunflower
LEAVE-IN:Nature's Nectars luv-n-a-bottle, Natures Gate pomegranate sunflower
STYLE: Nature's Nectars Sweet Shea butter blend, Ecostyler gel
hemp oil, jojoba oil
www.naturesnectars.net
Thanks y'all, that does help! I do need to be more regular about DTs for sure. I'm such a slacker-pants. My hair doesn't seem to have the typical reactions to protein and OCing as most people though. Boo!

To answer product questions--the only LA Looks gel I've tried is the Sports Gel, and it does alright, but I live where there are low dews so the glycerin is often a problem. I'd really love to find something with lots of hold (I like crunch) and low humectants.
2b/2c--Dry climate
Medium texture/Normal Elasticity/Normal Porosity
High density

Current Routine:
Cleanser/Co-wash: VO5/AIA Coconut Co-wash
RO: GVPCB
LI: Yes to Carrots Pampering Conditioner

Super Soaker
Styler: Homemade FSG with a small bit of coconut oil and LALSG
DT/PT: CJCR, GVP Hair Reconstructor or Ion Reconstructor


Thanks y'all, that does help! I do need to be more regular about DTs for sure. I'm such a slacker-pants. My hair doesn't seem to have the typical reactions to protein and OCing as most people though. Boo!

To answer product questions--the only LA Looks gel I've tried is the Sports Gel, and it does alright, but I live where there are low dews so the glycerin is often a problem. I'd really love to find something with lots of hold (I like crunch) and low humectants.
Originally Posted by morninglorie
I live in a dry climate where the dews are low as well. I can actually use products with glycerin even in the winter as long as (1) the glycerin is at least
The 4th ingredient or lower in a product and (2) I use a more moisturizing leave in under/with it. The LA looks power spike gel didn't really have a super strong hold but it still worked nicely. BRHG is definitely a strong hold gel. I use no more than a nickel size of it for my tailbone length hair. I usually use it on top of my regular gel or I've had success mixing it with AOMM.
3a (normal-porosity/elasticity/density)
Cleanse: CHS TS+oil, poo bars, Sevi pumpkin poo, Co-wash
LI/RO:MD RCLI, GDLI, Andalou naturals -GVPCB, DB pumpkin, Tresemmé Naturals
Stylers: LALSG, Volumax styling, CHS CK, BRHG, KCCC, Gel-les'C, JC Spiralicious, AOMM, CJPP, SSCEJ

$5 off 1st order under $40, $10 off over $40...at iherb use code KEY066
I live in a dry climate where the dews are low as well. I can actually use products with glycerin even in the winter as long as (1) the glycerin is at least
The 4th ingredient or lower in a product and (2) I use a more moisturizing leave in under/with it. The LA looks power spike gel didn't really have a super strong hold but it still worked nicely. BRHG is definitely a strong hold gel. I use no more than a nickel size of it for my tailbone length hair. I usually use it on top of my regular gel or I've had success mixing it with AOMM.
Ohh! I'll keep that in mind about the glycerin. My hair seemed happier off the LA Looks, but I'll try to pair it with a heavier leave in and see what happens. Turns out I also haven't been using nearly enough LI either, so that probably didn't help!

I've been wanting to try both BRHG and AOMM! You're going to pass your experimenting bug on to me

Product update-wise, recently I've been trying HETT over my FSG and have been liking it pretty well. I'm not getting the super floof and producty feel that AIF seemed to give me, at least on day 1. However, my second day hair is NOT good--I lose the clumps and definition and it starts to feel gross. BUT, I added some coconut oil into my FSG, so that might also be contributing to the grosser 2nd day hair.
2b/2c--Dry climate
Medium texture/Normal Elasticity/Normal Porosity
High density

Current Routine:
Cleanser/Co-wash: VO5/AIA Coconut Co-wash
RO: GVPCB
LI: Yes to Carrots Pampering Conditioner

Super Soaker
Styler: Homemade FSG with a small bit of coconut oil and LALSG
DT/PT: CJCR, GVP Hair Reconstructor or Ion Reconstructor


KCCC gives me the best 2nd day and sometimes 3rd day hair. The only other product that assures good 2nd day hair for me is BRHG on top of or mixed with another gel/jelly. Otherwise, my 2nd day hair is..meh....as far as definition goes. Sometimes that's ok since I will wear it up for the most part.

The experimenting bug goes back and forth...back and forth..

Somehow I feel like I need to try out every new combo I see at least once.

Please update when you get to experiment some more. Speaking of experiments....I'm going to test out my newly acquired Mop C curl cream tomorrow since its wash day.
3a (normal-porosity/elasticity/density)
Cleanse: CHS TS+oil, poo bars, Sevi pumpkin poo, Co-wash
LI/RO:MD RCLI, GDLI, Andalou naturals -GVPCB, DB pumpkin, Tresemmé Naturals
Stylers: LALSG, Volumax styling, CHS CK, BRHG, KCCC, Gel-les'C, JC Spiralicious, AOMM, CJPP, SSCEJ

$5 off 1st order under $40, $10 off over $40...at iherb use code KEY066
Just wanted to say that I am absolutely LOVING UFDCM!!!! I love it more than KCCC. I just ordered more because I do not want to be without it. Every time I use it my hair turns out fabulous!! I may have to clear out my cabinets and stick with just a few styling products. This has been working so consistently for me and I don't even need a hard loading gel with it! My daughter is loving it too. If it works in the summer, than I'm completely sold. Since the average dews are around 30, I'm hoping this will work year round.
3a (normal-porosity/elasticity/density)
Cleanse: CHS TS+oil, poo bars, Sevi pumpkin poo, Co-wash
LI/RO:MD RCLI, GDLI, Andalou naturals -GVPCB, DB pumpkin, Tresemmé Naturals
Stylers: LALSG, Volumax styling, CHS CK, BRHG, KCCC, Gel-les'C, JC Spiralicious, AOMM, CJPP, SSCEJ

$5 off 1st order under $40, $10 off over $40...at iherb use code KEY066
Just wanted to say that I am absolutely LOVING UFDCM!!!! I love it more than KCCC. I just ordered more because I do not want to be without it. Every time I use it my hair turns out fabulous!! I may have to clear out my cabinets and stick with just a few styling products. This has been working so consistently for me and I don't even need a hard loading gel with it! My daughter is loving it too. If it works in the summer, than I'm completely sold. Since the average dews are around 30, I'm hoping this will work year round.
Originally Posted by Curlsnswirls
I got a sample of UFDCM from Kathymack and, like you, I absolutely love it! So far I have also tried KCCC, CK Coil Jam, CRN Aloe Whipped Butter Gel, CK, CJCIAB and CK. I really liked CK for fighting frizz in combo with BHRG for hold but as the dew points rose they were not working. I went back to the samples and products I bought to see what might work, tried a few things and concluded I needed to stay away from glycerin in the higher dew points so I went back to glycerin-free UFDCM and it is by far the best! I just ordered two bottles (saved on some shipping!) but they are back ordered until the 25th - I am bummed about that. As far as the higher dew points are concerned Central Florida's have been above 65 (and I believe are usually in the 70's in the summer) for the past few weeks and I believe are here to stay until late fall and so far the UFDCM is doing a great job in them.
2C/Fine Texture/Normal Porosity/Normal Elasticity/Very Humid Climate
So I've been applying my products to dripping wet hair as instructed in the Curly Girl book by Lorraine Massey and wow!! I know I've mentioned before on other threads that my hair did not do well when applying product to super wet hair...I was so wrong!!! Apparently I was not applying enough gel and was not scrunching enough. I've been doing this for 2 weeks (maybe more?) and get fabulous results every time!!!! I get a lot of definition, minimal to no frizz, shine, etc. and I'm so thrilled!!! I actually used LALSG (on one side of my hair) over a leave in + oil to seal on both sides and LALPSG on the other half and my hair turned out fabulous!!! I used a lot more gel than I have tried before and I'm impressed. I will see how second day hair fairs but I think I'm really going to love these gels! I wanted atleast one of the LA gels to work for me since they are easy to find locally and so inexpensive. I've had such great results and the dews have been super low..

I've been applying products to dripping wet hair, scrunch..scrunch..scrunching...scrunching with my CLU cloth and then diffusing to 90%(?). LOVING the results!!
I use a leave-in + oil (usually MO+Argan or sweet almond), curl cream (MopC or MDCSC), and gel (variety).
3a (normal-porosity/elasticity/density)
Cleanse: CHS TS+oil, poo bars, Sevi pumpkin poo, Co-wash
LI/RO:MD RCLI, GDLI, Andalou naturals -GVPCB, DB pumpkin, Tresemmé Naturals
Stylers: LALSG, Volumax styling, CHS CK, BRHG, KCCC, Gel-les'C, JC Spiralicious, AOMM, CJPP, SSCEJ

$5 off 1st order under $40, $10 off over $40...at iherb use code KEY066
I'm still loving LALSG!!! I haven't used the power spikes in a while since I'm loving the results with the sports gel. I cannot get over how much I'm loving this gel. I was not using it correctly before and that's why I could not get it to work for me. I'm sooooo glad I revisited this gel. I have to end up using 3-4 tablespoon, sometimes more for it to work but its so worth it. It's inexpensive as it is, so no problem there. It gives me defined, soft, shiny hair...what more could I want? I still love many of my other products but this has quickly become a "top 5" favorite gel.
I did get a chance to use it in low dews but not really during the winter. If it works in the winter time.....
I love that I can use it with just a leave-in+a few drops of oil and top with LALSG...=fantastic hair!!! Today I did top that with a squirt of Gel-les'C and wow that helped with clumps!!!

Also, I'm still styling in really wet hair. This technique has really made a difference for my hair. I noticed even when the forecast said "tricky" curls I still had great hair, a little less volume, but still great hair.

Yay for great hair days!!!
3a (normal-porosity/elasticity/density)
Cleanse: CHS TS+oil, poo bars, Sevi pumpkin poo, Co-wash
LI/RO:MD RCLI, GDLI, Andalou naturals -GVPCB, DB pumpkin, Tresemmé Naturals
Stylers: LALSG, Volumax styling, CHS CK, BRHG, KCCC, Gel-les'C, JC Spiralicious, AOMM, CJPP, SSCEJ

$5 off 1st order under $40, $10 off over $40...at iherb use code KEY066
curlsnswirls: I'm wondering if you still use the Truepolaris FSG or just the BB? I've been considering BB' s FSG or Mudd for awhile, but the Truepolaris curly gel looks intriguing. Do you use the custom version of either? If so, what do you add?

We aren't perfect hair twins, but we do have similar properties; mine is fine, normal to low porosity, normal elasticity. I live in rainy Washington State so our climate is different. I also have to be very careful with protein and I have to avoid glycerin completely. I have had the most success with Jessicurl Too Shea (RO/LI) and Weekly Deep treatment (RO), but most of her styling products have glycerin so I can't use them. I really like the JC Confident coils( JCCC), but I get white flakes by the end of the day. That's why I thought I might like the Truepolaris, since it has Mag Sulfate in it like the JCCC. My hair seems to really like it. My favorite gels are Uncle Funky' s Daughter Curly Magic ( UFDCM) and CJ Pattern Pusha (CJPP), but UFDCM is very expensive with shipping (you get a nice large bottle though) and CJPP gives me inconsistent results. I hope you don't mind if I "stalk" you a little bit.
Originally Posted by ltdeforrest
So I have to comment here because my hair is just the same way (as the bolded part), and so I got some AOMM last week and they appear to have added GLYCERIN. Judging from your comment here and the products in your sig that must be a new thing - yes? My hair is soooo angry. I also tried the Loma curvature but I think my hair is also ticked off about the aloe in that.

Back to my cheap-o HETT mousse and GVPCB DTs for me! Doesn't always keep my hair un-frizzy but at least it doesn't become a dry tangly mess!
Mod CG since 5/10, 2b/3a, med width/density, low/med porosity, greying since 18, color over grey since 21

Hair hates: non-keratin protein, glycerin, sorbitol, agave, sulfates, polyquats, co-washing (flaky scalp), maybe aloe?
Hair loves: fewer/more natural ingredients, moisture

Scalp wash: Selsun Blue naturals or reg when desperate
Low poo: Giovanni TTTT
RO: SN - Strawberry, ES
LI: SNES
Style: HETT mousse, FSG if I make it, ??
DT: GVPCB
PT: GVPKP
I'm so curious about the UFDCM- almost purchased it this week. I like the fact that its glycerin free. I'm curious about the texture; runny? Thick?

And the smell? I'm very picky and herbal type smells are a huge turn off for me (as in anything by Aubrey organics) So...please describe the scent!
2C/ Coarse/ Normal porosity/ SW Florida/ Salt & Pepper
Cleanse: CJ Daily Fix, JC Cleansing Cream, TJ Tea Tree Condish
Condish: JC Too Shea, CJ Curl Rehab (both as RO & LI)
Stylers: UFD CM, CJ PP, JC Spiralicious, Darcy's Cream Gel & Cocoa bean whip
Hey everyone! I wanted to update what I've been using, because I've actually fallen into a routine of consistently good looking hair. Big thanks to Curlsnswirls for the suggestion about lots of moisture in conjunction with glycerin, because that TOTALLY helped me.

The only thing I'm still "playing" with is cleansing. I switch between co-washing with VO5, using AIA's Coconut Cowash, or SheaMoisture's Moisture Retention shampoo. It depends on how gross my head feels.

I still use GVPCB as my RO--I love this stuff. If they ever get rid of it, I will be the saddest panda in history.

After my RO, I put in a little bit of Yes To Carrots Pampering Conditioner, concentrating on my ends, and then gently comb it through with a Denman brush.

Then I supersoak, and apply FSG (which is plain save for 1/2 a tsp of coconut oil) to my soaking wet hair, get out of the shower and plop immediately, but only long enough to get dressed.

After I take out the plop, I've been scrunching in a bunch of LALSG. I like it to get nice and crunchy. When its dry, I SOTC (though it often gets un-crunchy on its own), and I have been a happy camper.

I even get decent 2nd day hair, by just scrunching in water and a little more gel (and sometimes the Organix curl cream, if I'm bored).

The product junkie in me still wants to play with other stuff, but its nice to have a default routine that works!
2b/2c--Dry climate
Medium texture/Normal Elasticity/Normal Porosity
High density

Current Routine:
Cleanser/Co-wash: VO5/AIA Coconut Co-wash
RO: GVPCB
LI: Yes to Carrots Pampering Conditioner

Super Soaker
Styler: Homemade FSG with a small bit of coconut oil and LALSG
DT/PT: CJCR, GVP Hair Reconstructor or Ion Reconstructor


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