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-   -   Tea Party sympathizers?? (http://www.naturallycurly.com/curltalk/politics/102369-tea-party-sympathizers.html)

Boomygrrl 04-15-2010 09:17 AM

Tea Party sympathizers??
 
Today is tax day here in the good ol' USA. The Tea Party has organized many demonstrations throughout the country to protest big government and what they say is high taxes.
I personally don't have a problem with people assembling and disagreeing with how government is doing things.
I don't think that in and of itself is a bad thing.
The racism, talking points, and perhaps the extremists of the group??? have made it difficult for me to respect much of this group. I'm sure there are individuals who are not racist, who have well-thought out arguments, and are very mainstream, who will be demonstrating at these events.
Today, on Sirius/XM, the AP news was being broadcasted. I did a double take...a "wha?" moment. I think I heard them say that the education/income level of the average Tea Party protester is above average. Ummmm, really? Did I hear that right?
Anyone else hear that?

I have to admit. As a group (again, I know there will be individuals that do not fit this), I thought they were less intelligent, crazier/more racist, and possibly and ironically living off of government assistance (and using government funded programs).

I'm really trying to understand what I think is an over-emotional reaction in our country...whether it be the republican congress saying "no" to everything Obama wants (just because they can), calling Obama a liar during his presidential address, the Tea Party movement which was organized only months into Obama's administration, the recent pro-Confederate proclamation in Virginia, the organizing of the 2nd Amendment rights demonstrating with guns, death threats, misinformation about Obama wanting to outlaw fishing to stir up people, the popularity of Glenn Beck, Sarah Palin.

Can someone please give me another explanation than our country has gone batsh@t crazy? I would like to think there's some logical and positive things to be said about all this.

RedCatWaves 04-15-2010 09:46 AM

Education and intelligence doesn't necessarily mean someone can't be racist or a hate monger. Hate transends everything else, because hate can make people blind.

The tea baggers are being played. This is not an organic grass roots movement. It's a carefully orchestrated movement, and these suckers are playing right into the hands of the organizers, who are making a mint off their blind hatred.

curlygirlyme 04-15-2010 09:49 AM

Thatís because what you see here is people posting pictures of people holding racist stupid signs and some people claiming they saw/heard things at rallies (they have no proof on video or pictures). Of course you are going to assume these people are the majority. Have you actually ever gone to one? I'm assuming not. I have and I never saw anything like what's being shown here or on the news. Most people were just there laughing, talking, listening, singing, etc. People were all just frustrated. Not angry racist. Of course people are when only 47% of the population is paying taxes. I'm sure my post will be slammed as a racist, Obama hater but whatever I'm used to it. But instead of taking what people say here and on the news as absolute truth go look for yourself before passing judgment on a lot of people.

Eilonwy 04-15-2010 09:51 AM

Plenty of people feel very uncertain because of the recession and/or the first Black president (which is a blow to White privilege). Of course, this being America, a lot of these people haven't voted very often -- if ever --- and don't really follow politics. Now that they feel scared, they want an easy answer. And people like Glenn Beck and Rush Limbaugh provide a very easy answer: We have to protect America from the forces of evil and extremism! So now people who used to be uncertain and uninformed are now certain and uninformed. There's a concrete, well defined enemy that can be targeted and defeated. And once the enemy is defeated, all their problems will be solved!

Also, a lot of these people are just plain don't care about people who are less privileged. "I worked hard to be born into a nice middle-class family. Why were those other people so lazy?" These are the people who complain about the homeless just sitting around all day and not working, while they have to work at jobs.

LoloDSM 04-15-2010 09:56 AM

DH is not a Tea Partier, but he doesn't think the government should be involved in anything that isn't spelled out in the Constitution. Our first argument was about Marbury v. Madison and the Supreme Court's "slight of hand" that gave courts the ability to decide when laws are unconstitutional. I was so angry at DH, I almost left him in the restaurant that night.

Anywho, DH doesn't get all bent out of shape about whether Obama is a U.S. citizen, or that nonsense. He just doesn't want the government involved in anything that isn't in the Constitution. He doesn't think there should be a federal department of eduation or health and human services.

DH has a bachelor's degree and makes good money, so he isn't one of the stereotypical tea baggers. He thinks Sarah Palin should be quiet and go away. He doesn't like Glenn Beck. Unfortuantely, he DOES listen to Rush Limbaugh, but he sees it as entertainment, not gospel.

ETA: I mention DH because he might go to the Tea Party demonstration today.

Eilonwy 04-15-2010 09:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LoloDSM (Post 1319996)
DH is not a Tea Partier, but he doesn't think the government should be involved in anything that isn't spelled out in the Constitution.

I never understand that point of view. The constitution doesn't really spell anything out besides stuff like, "There shall be an executive branch headed by a president." And the Constitution does include the Necessary and Proper Clause.

LoloDSM 04-15-2010 10:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eilonwy (Post 1319998)
Quote:

Originally Posted by LoloDSM (Post 1319996)
DH is not a Tea Partier, but he doesn't think the government should be involved in anything that isn't spelled out in the Constitution.

I never understand that point of view. The constitution doesn't really spell anything out besides stuff like, "There shall be an executive branch headed by a president." And the Constitution does include the Necessary and Proper Clause.

I don't necessarily understand his point of view. But I don't want to encourage the debate. If you look at Section 8, I think that's what he is talking about.

Eilonwy 04-15-2010 10:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LoloDSM (Post 1320005)
I don't necessarily understand his point of view. But I don't want to encourage the debate. If you look at Section 8, I think that's what he is talking about.

Just to clarify, I was speaking in general about that approach to the Constitution, and not specifically about your husband :)

Boomygrrl 04-15-2010 12:10 PM

I actually understand the minimalist (Constitutionalist) approach and being fiscally responsible.
I don't fully agree with it, but I can respectfully understand and agree to disagree. I'm fine with that point of view, actually.
However, we are already part "socialist" and have been for years...public schools, libraries, road construction, Medicaid, Medicare, Social Security, funding wars, etc.
Where were they when Bush Jr was raising our taxes? When congress passed the Patriot Act?

And I do feel like they are being played, as well. They seem to praise Sarah Palin. Palin? Really? Glenn Beck as well.
The rich who have loopholes and do not pay their fair share do not like to have a more progressive tax that Obama proposed. They'd rather it be that the Middle Class pays more than their fair share but yet do not get the goodies attached to it.
Now the rich and poor benefit most from our taxes, while it's the middle class that pays the largest chunk. Now that there will be more benefits for middle class, everyone is now screaming?

I think fundamentally, I undestand why someone might be attracted to the fiscally conservative message the Tea Party sends. Unfortunately, we're being taxed up the wazzoo no matter who is in power, so why not get some goodies along the way, rather than always favoring the rich (with scraps given to the poor)?
Don't they see that?

Or am I still not getting it?

Eilonwy 04-15-2010 12:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boomygrrl (Post 1320129)
Unfortunately, we're being taxed up the wazzoo no matter who is in power, so why not get some goodies along the way, rather than always favoring the rich (with scraps given to the poor)?
Don't they see that?

Or am I still not getting it?

In the case of the middle-class tea partiers, it comes from believing that there's some sort of fundamental fairness to the class system. The members of the middle class deserve to be middle-class. The poor are lazy, and don't deserve to be middle-class. These people don't like to acknowledge the existence of systemic biases like racism. They also like to think that people with mental illnesses or addictions are trash. "If that bum would just man up, he wouldn't have severe paranoid schizophrenia anymore! Why can't he just snap out of it? Why does he want to blame the CIA for all his problems?"

Basically, these people combine paranoia with classism (often with racism mixed in, since class and race are so tied together in this country).

Boomygrrl 04-15-2010 01:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eilonwy (Post 1320181)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Boomygrrl (Post 1320129)
Unfortunately, we're being taxed up the wazzoo no matter who is in power, so why not get some goodies along the way, rather than always favoring the rich (with scraps given to the poor)?
Don't they see that?

Or am I still not getting it?

In the case of the middle-class tea partiers, it comes from believing that there's some sort of fundamental fairness to the class system. The members of the middle class deserve to be middle-class. The poor are lazy, and don't deserve to be middle-class. These people don't like to acknowledge the existence of systemic biases like racism. They also like to think that people with mental illnesses or addictions are trash. "If that bum would just man up, he wouldn't have severe paranoid schizophrenia anymore! Why can't he just snap out of it? Why does he want to blame the CIA for all his problems?"

Basically, these people combine paranoia with classism (often with racism mixed in, since class and race are so tied together in this country).

That makes sense. I don't agree with their point of view. But I can see that now.
If you (gy) think that the system is fair, then of course you don't want those crazy liberals changing that up.
If you think that people pretty much get what they deserve in life, then a minimalist approach makes the most sense. Let the cards fall where they may.

It's hard to argue with someone that doesn't think racism or sexism exists. or that mental illness is not a choice. or that homosexuality is not a choice.
We as a society have become less racist and sexist because of the left fighting for our rights. The Civil Rights movement, the Women's Movement. We have all benefited (well, not the rich white man...he's not benefiting...LOL).
I have heard people say (and believe) that we are in a new era in which racism and sexism doesn't exist or is so rare that it doesn't need to be addressed. They actually believe that.

I was naive enough when I was a teenager to think that sexism was almost non-existent. I heard sexist remarks, but I wrote that off as those older, ignorant people. I didn't understand how systemic sexism was...even though I was living right in the middle of it. My father is sexist, but because I was smarter than my brothers, he favored me. However, his remarks and joking about others were very sexist. The way he treated my mom...sexist. My church was sexist...but it was always rationalized.
So, I think I can understand why someone might come to the conclusion of getting angry when "liberal" programs are being proposed and wanting a more minimalist approach.

Boomygrrl 04-15-2010 01:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by curlygirlyme (Post 1319983)
Thatís because what you see here is people posting pictures of people holding racist stupid signs and some people claiming they saw/heard things at rallies (they have no proof on video or pictures). Of course you are going to assume these people are the majority. Have you actually ever gone to one? I'm assuming not. I have and I never saw anything like what's being shown here or on the news. Most people were just there laughing, talking, listening, singing, etc. People were all just frustrated. Not angry racist. Of course people are when only 47% of the population is paying taxes. I'm sure my post will be slammed as a racist, Obama hater but whatever I'm used to it. But instead of taking what people say here and on the news as absolute truth go look for yourself before passing judgment on a lot of people.

Good point. I haven't gone to one. Admittedly, I am ignorant about this. That's why I wanted Tea Party Sympathizers to respond to this. I want to hear more than the side I usually hear. Thanks for sharing your experiences.
Only 47 percent of the population is paying taxes-- taking what you said. You do realize that I'm angry that I pay more than my fair share of taxes, while the rich get loopholes and big corporations get deals to fatten their wallets. I don't mind helping the poor. I would hope that if I'm ever down and out, that I would get help too.
It seems like people are screaming more when it's to help the poor and sick. There wasn't an outrage by the conservative side when Bush Jr put us in two wars-- one of which many (including the conservatives now...hindsight being 20/20) would say shouldn't have happened. There wasn't this outrage like there is now.

I understand we are in a recession. I understand we need to either cut spending or pay more taxes. We cannot keep borrowing from foreign nations. I respect the fiscal conservative side. I do.
I just think the anger is directed in the wrong place, that's all.
I was very angry about how the bail outs for our major financial institutions took place. I hesitantly agreed that something needed to be done, but little ol' me thought they needed accountability. It was passed without really thinking it through. Before they passed the bail out, I thought "they need to put restrictions; they need to investigate what happened. give them money if you must (to avoid more problems), but don't just hand it to them." What did they end up doing? They pretty much gave them the money without any strings attached. That pissed me off to no end!!!!

I'm angry that corporate America gets a pass and that we are left paying the bill. The last thing I want to do is to support the Republican party that caters to this crowd. Both parties were responsible for this mess...but let's face it...the repubs are in alliance with corporate america even more so.
Quite opposite of the Tea Party, I'm angry about what happened BEFORE Obama took office (under Bush), I'm angry that the poor are being abandoned while the rich prosper in quite unethical ways. By the way, I'm all for people doing well, getting rich...if it's done ethically. I'm not anti-capitalist. Just to be clear.
But we as a society pay taxes to better our society. The rich do not need more toys (yachts) while the poor are suffering. The health care system with the insurance companies profiting and turning down their own paying customers...that's unethical. Why fight against the sick and fight for the insurance company? That's what I didn't get about the Tea Party.
I understand you don't want a "government take-over." Actually, I don't either. I'm not supporting a single payor system. However, something needed to be done. The repubs weren't going to do squat. I'm happy with what got passed. It isn't perfect.
I just don't understand. It seems like the Tea Party is fighting against their own best interest. And they are being played by the very people that are oppressing all of us, including them.

BekkaPoo 04-15-2010 02:39 PM

Ironically...
 
Quote:

But what was not outwardly clear was that teabaggers are, according to a new New York Times/CBS News poll, "wealthier and more well-educated than the general public." In other words, they are elitists looking for wealth-care and not health-care.
http://dorkmonger.blogspot.com/

Boomygrrl 04-15-2010 03:08 PM

Bekkapoo, that is the poll that the AP was referring to. Thanks. The blog made sense in explaining it. I too know that repub party is behind it all. It makes sense that those on top are more educated/more wealthy. It makes sense that they are having the less educated/ less wealthy do their dirty work for them. Somehow the twisted logic of Glenn Beck really made it where they are willing to fight tooth and nail against their own best interests.

I don't doubt that there aren't intelligent people out in the trenches too. I think it's probably a mixed crowd of poor/rich; smart/not so smart; racist/blind to racism kind of people. Again, the basic argument that we need to be fiscally conservative doesn't offend me. I can understand why smart people, well meaning people can believe that. I understand that...but the Tea party is more than just arguing for that alone.
There is an over-reaction after Obama went into office. Not saying the average Tea Partier is racist. But I think there are some racists in the group that are riled up. I think this riled up energy is attractive to some people who are already angry and don't know what to do with their anger. The non-racist (or blind to racism) people probably overlook or rationalize the racist side of the movement. But there is this energy that goes beyond anger at our economy. Most of us, liberal and conservative, republican and democrat, are angry at the economy. It's the way the anger is being directed that concerns me. How they are being directed (riling up the basest part of the group) concerns me.
I think if we can get beyond the emotionalism, there could be some dialogue. And I know there is emotionalism. My husband isn't a Tea Partier...but he sympathizes with them. He watches Fox News and I can tell he gets a little riled up. He isn't racist (he's just ignorant about racism). His best friend really is black (not just saying it)...that's the irony. His best friend is a conservative black man. Yes, he and I have had discussions too. (but I digress)
There's something that's getting riled up. It's like the Repub party is using people to get them riled up to try to intimidate others. Get enough people angry, direct that anger at the wrong source, and add a little bit of crazy-o to the mix...and voila!
I understand the anger, I understand wanting fiscal conservatism. I hope I'm clear what I'm having a problem with.

BekkaPoo 04-15-2010 03:39 PM

Boomygrrl, your point is clear to me, very much so.

But of course this "movement" was a false one from the beginning-- they have great marketing for a "grass roots" movement, dontcha think? In the end a real revolution would be if the bottom 99% of us were ganging up on the top 1% instead of the other way around.

Trenell 04-15-2010 05:08 PM

The next rally, I think I'll go. Orlando recently had one and one of the speakers: That Doctor Cassel jag who put up a sign telling patients that voted for Obama were not welcomed.

Nice.

Boomygrrl 04-15-2010 06:14 PM

Trenell, let us know how that goes.

RedCatWaves 04-15-2010 07:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by curlygirlyme (Post 1319983)
Thatís because what you see here is people posting pictures of people holding racist stupid signs and some people claiming they saw/heard things at rallies (they have no proof on video or pictures). Of course you are going to assume these people are the majority. Have you actually ever gone to one? I'm assuming not. I have and I never saw anything like what's being shown here or on the news. Most people were just there laughing, talking, listening, singing, etc. People were all just frustrated. Not angry racist. Of course people are when only 47% of the population is paying taxes. I'm sure my post will be slammed as a racist, Obama hater but whatever I'm used to it. But instead of taking what people say here and on the news as absolute truth go look for yourself before passing judgment on a lot of people.


I'm not going to call you racist, but I am thinking that you are not very well informed. Yes, "only" 47% of people pay federal income taxes, but that doesn't mean they don't pay any taxes. They are for sure paying payroll taxes (FICA/social security). They are paying state and local taxes. They are paying sales taxes. We as a country happen to run a lot of programs through our tax system, so people who bought homes this year (and paid taxes on them) were able to take deductions that negated their taxes-owed. We get tax deductions for all sorts of reasons, and we pay taxes and then get some of them back because we're eligible for those deductions. We are taxed every time we turn around, so to say "only 47% of people pay taxes" is so far beyond ignorant as to be laughable. PLEASE...get your information from something else besides Fox News. They are lying to you. Just because they repeat their lies over and over again, doesn't make them true.

The demographics of the Tea Party movement are startling...90% of them are white males. If that's not racist...well, it's pretty darn close.

BekkaPoo 04-15-2010 08:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trenell (Post 1320445)
The next rally, I think I'll go. Orlando recently had one and one of the speakers: That Doctor Cassel jag who put up a sign telling patients that voted for Obama were not welcomed.

Nice.

In the words of T. Roosevelt "Speak softly and carry a big stick."

lol

Eilonwy 04-15-2010 08:20 PM

I'm so upset that people with lots of extra money pay federal taxes, and people who are really poor don't pay federal taxes!!


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