Terrorism will exist as long as certain conditions exist.

Join Date: Dec 1999
Posts: 6,581
Obviously you did not read my post. I said that nothing in the New Testament ever teaches the use of violence. Sodom and Gomorrah is in the Old Testament, which is referring to ancient Judaism, NOT Christianity.

Also, with Sodom and Gomorroah and Noah's Ark, God did not issue a command for "believers" (i.e. human agents) to wipe out the unbelievers. Rather, according to the Bible God did this through the use of natural disasters. Quite different it is for people to die in natural disasters, attributed to nature, than people to die at the hand of others under the command of God.

Secondly, again, the Koran makes explicit claims that people should be killed for the sake of Allah. The New Testament does not. Whether people mishandle the Bible and use it for evil is not the fault of the Bible or Christianity but the fault of those who are handling it. There is no mishandling in a Muslim's killing others who are unbelievers; they are directly following commands from the Koran.
Originally Posted by Peace2
The Quran is just as subject to misinterpretation as your bible. How do you know the killing was literal? I don't know a single violent Muslim, though you seem to know many.

If the old testament is not supposed to be believed and not about christianity, then it should have been excluded.

Even stilll, you do not see Christian countries waging war against unbelievers; you do see Muslim countries waging war against unbelievers. And this is our current peril; this is the danger we face.

Peace
If colonizing them, taking their land, taking their natural resources, while "civilizing them" by bringing them christianity or "civilizing them" by bringing democracy, etc etc is not waging war for the "good" and "the way" and "family values" is not waging christian wars then I don't know what is.
"Pure propaganda. I can't believe they fed you this and you swallowed. "

Pure propaganda? Read the Muslim publications who claim that they are entitled to the land of Israel because they are the one true religion. Not only are they entitled but they must use violence to reclaim it.

Osama himself said that this is a holy/religious war and that the infidels must be killed. You can watch his tapes. Is this media propaganda?

How can it be media propaganda if the Muslim publications themselves are teaching these ideas? Who are the Muslims propagandizing to and for what purpose?

You can go to Muslim stores here in New York city and the Muslims are proud of Osama and hope he escapes and fill his goals.

On 9/11, one of my roommates and my co-workers saw Muslims dancing in the streets of Manhattan overjoyed at the bombings, while they were walking their long walk home. Is this propaganda? My current roommate formerly lived with Muslims who had no remorse or sadness over 9/11.
She read their publications and saw their teachings in print for herself. This was not the writing of so-called right-wingers desiring to villify Islam, but it was the writing of Muslims geared toward a Muslim audience.

Perhaps you ought to read Muslim publications yourself. I am curious as to what would make you think that this is pure propaganda?


Peace...
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My 50% Cherokee/50% African-American pedigree produced: 3B/3C/4A, corkscrew curls, easy to detangle, Medium, thin-normal, dark brown hair.
Cherish, I think you and I are agreeing in many ways.

I don't think that Desmond Tutu meant that terrorism is a new thing-- surely the man is educated enough to know that. In the larger context of his speech, I think he meant international terrorism affecting America to the extent it has as of late is relatively new. So, my fault for not making that clear; I apologize.

And I stand by his words that terrorism is indeed caused by situations that make people feel deperate. Mixed with extreme 'We're good, they're evil' sentiment, of course, and I'm guessing mental illness too.

Some things that are found in areas where terrorism is prevalent is that the groups are resentful that we are supporting nearby repressive regimes; they experience exploitation by their own government and/or by ours; they feel powerless, like they have no voice or say; and an increase in terrorism is common in countries that are transitioning from a more autocratic society to a more democratic society, such as Iraq and Russia. And yes, poverty is often found along with these things and most experts agree that though it would not solve the problem, it would still help.

I don't want to downplay the horrificness of terrorist attacks. But I also think it is our responsibility to look for any part we may be playing in it and find ways to help that do not harm innocent pepole.

Peace2, I appreciate your enthusiasm and I believe you are coming from a good place, but it is hard to read your posts because you are saying stuff that sounds so anti-Islam and it seems like you have bought into the "fear" thing. I don't usually say this, and I'm still glad for the discourse, but I doubt that we will find much common ground.
"It is wrong to use moral means to preserve immoral ends." MLK, Jr.

Password= urban
Join Date: Dec 1999
Posts: 6,581
"Pure propaganda. I can't believe they fed you this and you swallowed. "

Pure propaganda? Read the Muslim publications who claim that they are entitled to the land of Israel because they are the one true religion. Not only are they entitled but they must use violence to reclaim it.

Osama himself said that this is a holy/religious war and that the infidels must be killed. You can watch his tapes. Is this media propaganda?

How can it be media propaganda if the Muslim publications themselves are teaching these ideas? Who are the Muslims propagandizing to and for what purpose?

You can go to Muslim stores here in New York city and the Muslims are proud of Osama and hope he escapes and fill his goals.

On 9/11, one of my roommates and my co-workers saw Muslims dancing in the streets of Manhattan overjoyed at the bombings, while they were walking their long walk home. Is this propaganda? My current roommate formerly lived with Muslims who showed no remore over 9/11.
She read their publications and saw their teachings in print for herself. This was not the writing of so-called right-wingers desiring to villify Islam, but it was the writing of Muslims geared toward a Muslim audience.

Perhaps you ought to read Muslim publications yourself. I am curious as to what would make you think that this is pure propaganda?


Peace...
Originally Posted by Peace2
I don't need to read anything. I grew up in a Muslim and Christian household so I know. It's always funny how people talk about the "others", assuming those they are addressing can't possibly be one of those "others".

By your logic Timothy McVeigh represents the typical American.

ETA: Didn't Israel steal the land of the Palestinians anyway? So because Osama et al are highly pissed about it and are blowing stuff and people, they have no point?
Urbancurl:

I also enjoy the discourse. It seems however, that everything you offer in reply is speculation; I wish you would respond with facts. Of course I am not saying that everyone is a terrorist in Islam. There are a great deal of Muslims who are "folk Muslims" and have no idea what the Koran says. However, there are a great deal of rigid extremists.

Let's say that only a small percentage of Muslims are extremists - that still translates into millions of people.

...and that's something to worry about.
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Join Date: Dec 1999
Posts: 6,581
Urbancurl:

I also enjoy the discourse. It seems however, that everything you offer in reply is speculation; I wish you would respond with facts. Of course I am not saying that everyone is a terrorist in Islam. There are a great deal of Muslims who are "folk Muslims" and have no idea what the Koran says. However, there are a great deal of rigid extremists.

Let's say that only a small percentage of Muslims are extremists - that still translates into millions of people.

...and that's something to worry about.
Originally Posted by Peace2
Maybe they got tired of being kicked around like garbage and being cheated out of their land. Sucks when the little guy doesn't just roll over.
I don't need to read anything. I grew up in a Muslim and Christian household so I know. It's always funny how people talk about the "others", assuming those they are addressing can't possibly be one of those "others".

Cherish, I'm not accusing you and your family of being radical extremists. However, just because your family did not consist of radical extremists, does not mean that others do not.

And also Cherish, just by the fact that you grew up in a household where Christianity and Islam co-existed indicates that your family must not have been staunch in their beliefs, because according to Islam that co-existence is "haram". My roommate's Muslim roommates who were Hijabis and very religous would NEVER have gone for that.

I am not talking about you personally or Muslims who are able to co-exist with others, but rather those who claim daily that the infidel non-believers must be killed and train daily to do so.

And what about the Muslim publications? They do exist - written by Muslims for other Muslims. Do you discredit them?

Peace
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My 50% Cherokee/50% African-American pedigree produced: 3B/3C/4A, corkscrew curls, easy to detangle, Medium, thin-normal, dark brown hair.
Peace2,

I can back up what I'm saying with quotes from respectable sources on the Internet, or books, would that help? I don't think so. Most of what we all say is our interpretation of facts or some other combo of fact and fiction. I think we just have to live with that. Because from my point of view, much of what you are saying is not fact.



I also just want to add, going back to my first post or 2, that regardless of the cause of terrorism and what we can do to help, IMO the war in Iraq is not being fought to free people from terrorism. I was just trying to retrace how we got here.
"It is wrong to use moral means to preserve immoral ends." MLK, Jr.

Password= urban
"Maybe they got tired of being kicked around like garbage and being cheated out of their land. Sucks when the little guy doesn't just roll over"

They weren't the littile guy. Israel was the little guy. Israel had no land until it was appointed to them. Furthermore, Palestinian attacks against Irael existed long before Israel was made into a nation state. So I am not quite sure what you mean about "being cheated out of their land".

And there are lots of people in the world who live in poverty in the world and they are not necessarily running around and terrorizing half the world. In fact, we took away the land from the Native Americans in this country and they are not around daily bombing us. And they truly do live in abject poverty. It's because it's not in their belief system to blow people up, unlike the radical Muslims.

It is NOT because of their poverty (although many in Palestine live in poor conditions, the bombers are well-financed). It is because of the commands issued by their scriptures - their ideology. The Muslim extremists themselves have said so. Do you simply choose not to believe them? And what gives you that right and authority to choose not to believe them?


Peace...
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My 50% Cherokee/50% African-American pedigree produced: 3B/3C/4A, corkscrew curls, easy to detangle, Medium, thin-normal, dark brown hair.
"I can back up what I'm saying with quotes from respectable sources on the Internet, or books, would that help?"

Urbancurl:

Actually it would. I would love to see your non-partisan sources. In life, just like in academics, we ought to back up our claims with other sources.

Peace...
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My 50% Cherokee/50% African-American pedigree produced: 3B/3C/4A, corkscrew curls, easy to detangle, Medium, thin-normal, dark brown hair.
Funny, I usually do post links, and I did on this subject on the main board where we were discussing terrorism. I'm too sleepy right now to do a search for that. But below, from my bookmarks, is one of the places I cited. Seemed rather balanced and informative to me. Doesn't mean you will think so though! I also found interesting stuff on terrorism on the Dept. of Homeland Security's webiste. (Don't know if I'd call that one balanced, ha ha!) Now I really have to go to bed, as I said about a 1/2 hour ago on another thread! Goodnight! :P

The Council on Foreign Relations, "Terrorism Q&A"
http://cfrterrorism.org/causes/regimes.html
"It is wrong to use moral means to preserve immoral ends." MLK, Jr.

Password= urban

It's not poverty... it's greed. When one country takes the land of another and calls it theirs leading to decades of bitterness and hate that festers and is passed from one generation to the next, the facts can sometimes become blurry because one only sees the hate, but not the root cause. And this is why it's so important to refer to history.
Originally Posted by Cherish

You've GOT to be joking. I don't see Brittons blowing up Italians over Rome's invasion. I don't see Brittons blowing up Germans over the Angol invasion. I don't see Native Americans blowing up Canadians, Americans, Mexicans, Dominicans, etc. over the English, Spanish, French, Dutch or Danish invasions. Israel is the current excuse to keep doing the same fighting that has been going on for thousands of years.
Just because it doesn't happen every time a group of people get F-ed over doesn't mean that the greed and domination of other countries has nothing to do with it.
"It is wrong to use moral means to preserve immoral ends." MLK, Jr.

Password= urban
Just because it doesn't happen every time a group of people get F-ed over doesn't mean that the greed and domination of other countries has nothing to do with it.
Originally Posted by urbancurl
And if this had just popped up overnight after Israel, you'd have a point. But it didn't. It is a warring region. If they weren't fighting with Israel, they'd be fighting with each other. Oh wait. They are fighting with each other.
Thank you Lucille.

And oh my gosh, speaking of trying to reconcile Christianity with Islam. Do you see the headlines? The radicals are now threatening to gun people down over cartoons?

This is certainly not like Christianity where people suffered persecution in silence. I mean here we have broadway musicals about a homosexual Jesus, NBC making show segments about "Cruci-fixins" and Kanwe West posing as a crucified Jesus on rolling stone magazine. Yet, Christians are not gunning people down, holding people hostage, and demanding national apologies. Christians may whine but they're not out killing people and threatening the world (and making do on their threats by blowing up thousands of Americans on American soil).

And frankly, if Kanwe West really had any guts, he would have portrayed Muhammad on the cover of Rolling Stone instead of Jesus, but then, he probably wouldn't still be alive. The "peaceful" Muslim extremists would have gunned him down by now.

Peace...
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My 50% Cherokee/50% African-American pedigree produced: 3B/3C/4A, corkscrew curls, easy to detangle, Medium, thin-normal, dark brown hair.
The fact of the matter is that the West and the East view war very differently. In the West, when a war is over, it's over. In the East, there have only been two instances where one side takes over the military, government and all control and "wins" the war. One: when the religious leader says the war is over. (E.g. Japan's emperor, who was the religious leader, telling the Japanese that they had lost WWII and that they must stop fighting.) Two: when the "winner" left nobody alive and salted the earth so that the city could not be rebuilt. (E.g. The Huns.)

As far as Middle Easterners are concerned, this is an ongoing war that has been going on for about 1,500 years. There are three ways to win it. Kill everyone. Not going to happen, because it is unacceptable to us. Get the religious leaders on our side. Not likely to happen, because it is unacceptable to them. Or change their perception of war to that of the West's. That when one party gets control of the land, government, etc., that party has won, and it's time to give up. Probably won't happen either, but it's the best shot.
Join Date: Dec 1999
Posts: 6,581

It's not poverty... it's greed. When one country takes the land of another and calls it theirs leading to decades of bitterness and hate that festers and is passed from one generation to the next, the facts can sometimes become blurry because one only sees the hate, but not the root cause. And this is why it's so important to refer to history.
Originally Posted by Cherish

You've GOT to be joking. I don't see Brittons blowing up Italians over Rome's invasion. I don't see Brittons blowing up Germans over the Angol invasion. I don't see Native Americans blowing up Canadians, Americans, Mexicans, Dominicans, etc. over the English, Spanish, French, Dutch or Danish invasions. Israel is the current excuse to keep doing the same fighting that has been going on for thousands of years.
Originally Posted by Lucille
No i'm not joiking. Britain did a great deal of the conquering and colonizing in this world, and yes they were invaded, but no one took their land called it theirs for decades and centuries. THEY did that.

(sorry I forgot about this thread)
Join Date: Dec 1999
Posts: 6,581
Just because it doesn't happen every time a group of people get F-ed over doesn't mean that the greed and domination of other countries has nothing to do with it.
Originally Posted by urbancurl
And if this had just popped up overnight after Israel, you'd have a point. But it didn't. It is a warring region. If they weren't fighting with Israel, they'd be fighting with each other. Oh wait. They are fighting with each other.
Originally Posted by Lucille
So what if they are? Let the UN deal with all that... oh but wait... let's go to war and show how to be a democracy
Join Date: Dec 1999
Posts: 6,581
I won't be able to check back in until late or tmr morning. Sorry i forgot about this thread.

Urban I have a Q for you on the Health care thread.

No i'm not joiking. Britain did a great deal of the conquering and colonizing in this world, and yes they were invaded, but no one took their land called it theirs for decades and centuries. THEY did that.

(sorry I forgot about this thread)
Originally Posted by Cherish
The Romans and Angols didn't take the land of Great Britain for centuries and decades and call it theirs? There are a large number of Welsh who did battle with the Romans at Snowdonia who would disagree with that sentiment, since the original inhabitants of that island were pushed behind the mountains and are now the Welsh. And um, the Angols did invade and stick around. That whole "Angoland" = England thing.

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