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Old 10-22-2008, 01:48 PM   #1
 
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Default As Gilda used to say "Never Mind."

I think it was Gilda's character Roseannadanna that would say "Never Mind" when she would be corrected about a false assumption.

Why is it in hind-sight many liberal causes are now viewed as the correct and moral thing but at the time are considered controversial?

Liberal: Women should have the right to vote; There should be equal pay for equal work; The Iraq war should've never started; the environment is getting worse, etc.

Conservative: Women generally don't work outside the home and are not up on political issues, they are not educated enough to know how to vote with their minds or they will just do what their husbands say; Women are only making "pin money" and don't need to get paid equal to a man. There are weapons of mass destruction. The environment is fine...oh yeah, the economy is fine. Love that one.

Then later:
Conservative: Nevermind! Okay, women can vote...we'll even throw in a token female to show we care. We won't address the equal pay issue...it's all about the free market, but we are not going to take an official stance to say women "shouldn't" get equal pay because we don't want to come across as jerks. Oh yeah, there aren't weapons of mass destruction and we shouldn't have gone to Iraq but now we're there and we believe the ends justifies the means (very moral!!! *sarcasm*) Okay, maybe we need to at least look like we're somewhat interested in the environment, dang it!!!

I know there are more issues and I don't want to beat this to death.

I'm wondering if the controversial issues of today will seem like moral and correct things in the future. Will Gay marriage just be accepted as okay and not be made a big deal? Will abortion even not be debated anymore because people will recognize that a fetus doesn't equal a baby? Will the races and genders be "judged" and treated more equally without the ignorant phrases like "well, if she's qualified" and "you don't seem black to me"? Just wondering.

In 100 years, will we look as ignorant/hateful as we often think of people from our history who thought slavery was okay, who viewed women as property, who had a very rudimentary view of science, etc.?

I think so.
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Old 10-22-2008, 03:44 PM   #2
 
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Hmmm. I really disagree with how you characterize things. There are many approaches for me to try to explain why.

I could take a political one and talk about the views of women who fought for suffrage, and women against slavery, and their reasoning for being so, and how you might consider what drove them to be conservative ideals.

Both major parties have morphed in terms of what is considered part of their ideology. Southern Democrats were powerfully pro-slavery, for example.


>Why is it in hind-sight many liberal causes are now viewed as the correct and moral thing but at the time are considered controversial?

This question is kinda difficult to approach, because again, what you think goes into a conservative's idealogy could likely be beliefs someone supporting these causes had.

>Liberal: Women should have the right to vote; There should be equal pay for equal work; The Iraq war should've never started; the environment is getting worse, etc.

Suffrage-it's worth checking out what views these women had.

Iraq War - Libertarians of today are more like average citizen Republicans of yesterday, and many are definitely against it.

The environment- This is more of a modern issue in terms of how relevant it is to people politically, so it's hard to do the comparison.

>Conservative: Women generally don't work outside the home and are not up on political issues, they are not educated enough to know how to vote with their minds or they will just do what their husbands say; Women are only making "pin money" and don't need to get paid equal to a man. There are weapons of mass destruction. The environment is fine...oh yeah, the economy is fine. Love that one.

Many conservatives don't appeal to the bible, and don't believe it should be, but that said, in the bible you have Lydia, a business woman, regarded positively, and women in leadership positions, including a queen, also regarded positively.

What people do react to is "imposed roles" which may not inhibit those things but do encourage the woman as domestically minded and man as breadwinner. I believe there are roles men and women are naturally dispositioned to do well in, but there isn't rationale for women being less educated, and just sticking to the home. There isn't rationale saying a man can't enjoy homemaking and dealing with his children.

Domestic doesn't have to mean banal either, and before public education, it couldn't afford to mean that.

That characterization is like saying liberal women are against families. People would necessarily object.

You would probably consider me conservative, and I don't think the economy is fine. I didn't believe as undeniable fact that there were WMD's. I was 17 when the Iraq war started, and I just knew I didn't know much, but I think I did lean to believing they were there, like many ordinary, busy people probably did when it was officially announced. Now I'm sure you mean holding onto the notion in light of mounting reason to believe otherwise, and I'm sure more people on the right did. When it comes to the prevailing ideologies of the two parties today, I think I prefer a Democratic president because s/he'll probably be less hawkish, and a Republican congress. Historically that mix has spent the least too, while Republican presidents with Democratic congresses have spent the most.

>Then later:
Conservative: Nevermind! Okay, women can vote...we'll even throw in a token female to show we care. We won't address the equal pay issue...it's all about the free market, but we are not going to take an official stance to say women "shouldn't" get equal pay because we don't want to come across as jerks. Oh yeah, there aren't weapons of mass destruction and we shouldn't have gone to Iraq but now we're there and we believe the ends justifies the means (very moral!!! *sarcasm*) Okay, maybe we need to at least look like we're somewhat interested in the environment, dang it!!!

I do believe we should let the market figure stuff out. Here's why Challenging the status quo at the root of our problems is something neither candidates are proposing.

The real problem is where control of our money supply is concentrated, and democrats and republicans are both ponds in that situation. What Thomas Jefferson considered the greatest affront to liberty, more so than standing armies, is exactly the dynamic we have with the federal reserve system. JFK was the last president to speak out about it.

I can understand why you put conservatives into the camp you do, but seriously it's akin to me putting liberals into broad, negatively connotated camps. It strikes me that modern liberals, in retrospect, are attempting to monopolize historical efforts as their causes alone. There are times where what you would consider pursuing equality was opposed by democrats, and I don't just mean pro-slavery dems. Science isn't in opposition to my conservative thinking either, and I don't know how Darwin would have stood politically, but consider what he thought of women.

To answer your question, I think so too, but I don't believe if humanity "progresses" it necessarily does what is "right" as a result. I believe there's a fixed standard of right that can be deviated from, and people can feel righteous about deviating from it and be wrong. It all comes down to whether a fixed standard exists of course, and while I believe one does, I understand that others don't. But yeah, the way we're headed, what you're saying is most likely the case.
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Old 10-23-2008, 09:06 AM   #3
 
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I said liberal/conservative...not democrat/republican. I'm quite aware that Democrats used to be conservative and Republicans used to be liberal. Now, the opposite is true. I still stand by what I wrote.
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Old 10-27-2008, 01:15 AM   #4
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boomygrrl View Post
I said liberal/conservative...not democrat/republican. I'm quite aware that Democrats used to be conservative and Republicans used to be liberal. Now, the opposite is true. I still stand by what I wrote.
Right, I understand that, although I don't quite think it would be accurate to say either were liberal in the sense the term is used today. And aside from slavery, Republicans weren't necessarily more liberal even in the sense of the different times. But what you put in the category of liberal causes were causes that many people you would probably consider conservative minded had.
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Old 10-27-2008, 06:43 AM   #5
 
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Boomygirl, I understand what you are saying and I've often thought the same thing. Like, I wonder if sixty years from now, kids in high school will be reading about that day in 20?? when same sex partners were given the right to legally marry and if they will have to draw comparisons between that and inter-racial marriage on their mid-terms...

I'm taking conservative to mean its dictionary definition: disposed to preserve existing conditions, institutions, etc., or to restore traditional ones, and to limit change, and I would even go so far as to label some of the changes that the OP listed in her first post as radical when they were first proposed. Now, they're a given in our society.
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Old 10-27-2008, 07:36 AM   #6
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boomygrrl View Post
I think it was Gilda's character Roseannadanna that would say "Never Mind" when she would be corrected about a false assumption.

Why is it in hind-sight many liberal causes are now viewed as the correct and moral thing but at the time are considered controversial?

Liberal: Women should have the right to vote; There should be equal pay for equal work; The Iraq war should've never started; the environment is getting worse, etc.

Conservative: Women generally don't work outside the home and are not up on political issues, they are not educated enough to know how to vote with their minds or they will just do what their husbands say; Women are only making "pin money" and don't need to get paid equal to a man. There are weapons of mass destruction. The environment is fine...oh yeah, the economy is fine. Love that one.

Then later:
Conservative: Nevermind! Okay, women can vote...we'll even throw in a token female to show we care. We won't address the equal pay issue...it's all about the free market, but we are not going to take an official stance to say women "shouldn't" get equal pay because we don't want to come across as jerks. Oh yeah, there aren't weapons of mass destruction and we shouldn't have gone to Iraq but now we're there and we believe the ends justifies the means (very moral!!! *sarcasm*) Okay, maybe we need to at least look like we're somewhat interested in the environment, dang it!!!

I know there are more issues and I don't want to beat this to death.

I'm wondering if the controversial issues of today will seem like moral and correct things in the future. Will Gay marriage just be accepted as okay and not be made a big deal? Will abortion even not be debated anymore because people will recognize that a fetus doesn't equal a baby? Will the races and genders be "judged" and treated more equally without the ignorant phrases like "well, if she's qualified" and "you don't seem black to me"? Just wondering.

In 100 years, will we look as ignorant/hateful as we often think of people from our history who thought slavery was okay, who viewed women as property, who had a very rudimentary view of science, etc.?

I think so.

You raise many interesting questions here. I do think that one day possibly gay marriage won't be seen as this great taboo; and I do believe that we will possibly look back on how foolish we were to deny their constitutional right to marry.

It wasn't long ago that "interracial marriage" was forbidden...much more recently, gay couples weren't allowed to adopt (I especially take issue with that...children just want parents who adore them and a safe, stable environment; they couldn't care less about gender preferences.). I can still remember when "interracial adoption" was forbidden in the US.

On the issue of racial biases, specifically in the US, I'm not as optimistic. Racism and prejudice in the US is simply too deep-rooted, imho. It's one of the main reasons I returned to Europe. They're not as obsessed with the idea of "race" or "color" as American culture more often than not is. I'm able to have extremely close friends from all walks of life, date as I please, live where I please, and racism is very widely frowned upon (at least in the three countries I've resided in).

They do still struggle with prejudices (it's not like it's a utopia), but it's extremely subtle and hard to explain. This current US election and seeing some of the volunteers has really given me hope for the US.

I wanted to post an op-ed article earlier that touches on this, but I decided against it...anywho.
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