McCain's POW video


So are you saying that people who serve in our military don't deserve our respect and thanks for their service?
Originally Posted by curlyjenn10
Did you even read my post? Your response had absolutely nothing to do with what I said.
Originally Posted by tantrum
The posters above you agreed that he should be honored specifically because of his service, regardless of who he is and what he's doing now. You disagreed with them, meaning you don't think he should be respected for his service. I was wondering if that opinion extends to others who serve, since that (service) was what was being discussed.
Originally Posted by curlyjenn10
No...I disagreed that he is a hero, and that he deserves any honor for his service. I don't know why you took that to indicate a punch to the military in general. I will assume that was just a misunderstanding of words.

I have no problem with people serving in the military. I served once myself. I respect military members as much as police officers, firefighters, and others who undertake a particular career knowing full well the dangers involved. But, like Trenell said, even these people can sometimes be considered a disgrace. We shouldn't forget that soldiers are people too, and they aren't all perfect. Abu Ghraib, anyone?

Also, I think it's dangerous to lavish so much respect on the military. While it's absolutely a welcome departure from the way we were treated during and after Vietnam, this "superhero status" that service members are enjoying is not always earned. I worry that elevating every veteran to such levels will push that person beyond reproach; just look at McCain. The vast majority of people are willing to overlook that fact that he destroyed four government aircraft, lied about his conduct, and was (even by his own account) a subpar officer who rode his father's coattails. Not to mention his abhorrent behavior as a POW. And then he gets out, becomes a politician, and promptly throws his fellow veterans and POWs under the bus. Unfortunately, though, nobody can publicly criticize him for what he's done without getting slammed by the conservative spin machine. "HEY! He was a POW! YOU CAN'T DISRESPECT HIM LIKE THAT!" Too bad John Kerry, Max Cleland, and others never received the same defense.

Did you even read my post? Your response had absolutely nothing to do with what I said.
Originally Posted by tantrum
The posters above you agreed that he should be honored specifically because of his service, regardless of who he is and what he's doing now. You disagreed with them, meaning you don't think he should be respected for his service. I was wondering if that opinion extends to others who serve, since that (service) was what was being discussed.
Originally Posted by curlyjenn10
No...I disagreed that he is a hero, and that he deserves any honor for his service. I don't know why you took that to indicate a punch to the military in general. I will assume that was just a misunderstanding of words.

I have no problem with people serving in the military. I served once myself. I respect military members as much as police officers, firefighters, and others who undertake a particular career knowing full well the dangers involved. But, like Trenell said, even these people can sometimes be considered a disgrace. We shouldn't forget that soldiers are people too, and they aren't all perfect. Abu Ghraib, anyone?

Also, I think it's dangerous to lavish so much respect on the military. While it's absolutely a welcome departure from the way we were treated during and after Vietnam, this "superhero status" that service members are enjoying is not always earned. I worry that elevating every veteran to such levels will push that person beyond reproach; just look at McCain. The vast majority of people are willing to overlook that fact that he destroyed four government aircraft, lied about his conduct, and was (even by his own account) a subpar officer who rode his father's coattails. Not to mention his abhorrent behavior as a POW. And then he gets out, becomes a politician, and promptly throws his fellow veterans and POWs under the bus. Unfortunately, though, nobody can publicly criticize him for what he's done without getting slammed by the conservative spin machine. "HEY! He was a POW! YOU CAN'T DISRESPECT HIM LIKE THAT!" Too bad John Kerry, Max Cleland, and others never received the same defense.
Originally Posted by tantrum
tantrum, I agree with all that you've said. I esp. agree with the bolded.
Healing Women - Please help.
Did anyone see this? The most comprehensive footage was released today. I thought it was pretty interesting. I can't even imagine being in that position.

http://www.ina.fr/archivespourtous/i...tice=I08290030

I can't imagine why this was released. seriously, I wonder if there was a motive behind this or what? Really moving though...
It's not really politics-related per say, I just thought it was interesting. Not trying to start a debate
Originally Posted by curlyjenn10
really hard to watch. I do wonder why it was released though...
My son wears combat boots (and a parachute).
The older I get, the less patience I have with cleverness. Thomas Sowell.
Resolve to perform what you ought. Perform without fail what you resolve. Benjamin Franklin.
Don't go around saying the world owes you a living. The world owes you nothing. It was here first. Mark Twain.




The posters above you agreed that he should be honored specifically because of his service, regardless of who he is and what he's doing now. You disagreed with them, meaning you don't think he should be respected for his service. I was wondering if that opinion extends to others who serve, since that (service) was what was being discussed.
Originally Posted by curlyjenn10
No...I disagreed that he is a hero, and that he deserves any honor for his service. I don't know why you took that to indicate a punch to the military in general. I will assume that was just a misunderstanding of words.

I have no problem with people serving in the military. I served once myself. I respect military members as much as police officers, firefighters, and others who undertake a particular career knowing full well the dangers involved. But, like Trenell said, even these people can sometimes be considered a disgrace. We shouldn't forget that soldiers are people too, and they aren't all perfect. Abu Ghraib, anyone?

Also, I think it's dangerous to lavish so much respect on the military. While it's absolutely a welcome departure from the way we were treated during and after Vietnam, this "superhero status" that service members are enjoying is not always earned. I worry that elevating every veteran to such levels will push that person beyond reproach; just look at McCain. The vast majority of people are willing to overlook that fact that he destroyed four government aircraft, lied about his conduct, and was (even by his own account) a subpar officer who rode his father's coattails. Not to mention his abhorrent behavior as a POW. And then he gets out, becomes a politician, and promptly throws his fellow veterans and POWs under the bus. Unfortunately, though, nobody can publicly criticize him for what he's done without getting slammed by the conservative spin machine. "HEY! He was a POW! YOU CAN'T DISRESPECT HIM LIKE THAT!" Too bad John Kerry, Max Cleland, and others never received the same defense.
Originally Posted by tantrum
tantrum, I agree with all that you've said. I esp. agree with the bolded.
Originally Posted by yagottaloveyacurls
Boy, I'm not going near this one...the top of my head will come off and I'll get banned.
My son wears combat boots (and a parachute).
The older I get, the less patience I have with cleverness. Thomas Sowell.
Resolve to perform what you ought. Perform without fail what you resolve. Benjamin Franklin.
Don't go around saying the world owes you a living. The world owes you nothing. It was here first. Mark Twain.




Did you even read my post? Your response had absolutely nothing to do with what I said.
Originally Posted by tantrum
The posters above you agreed that he should be honored specifically because of his service, regardless of who he is and what he's doing now. You disagreed with them, meaning you don't think he should be respected for his service. I was wondering if that opinion extends to others who serve, since that (service) was what was being discussed.
Originally Posted by curlyjenn10
No...I disagreed that he is a hero, and that he deserves any honor for his service. I don't know why you took that to indicate a punch to the military in general. I will assume that was just a misunderstanding of words.

I have no problem with people serving in the military. I served once myself. I respect military members as much as police officers, firefighters, and others who undertake a particular career knowing full well the dangers involved. But, like Trenell said, even these people can sometimes be considered a disgrace. We shouldn't forget that soldiers are people too, and they aren't all perfect. Abu Ghraib, anyone?

Also, I think it's dangerous to lavish so much respect on the military. While it's absolutely a welcome departure from the way we were treated during and after Vietnam, this "superhero status" that service members are enjoying is not always earned. I worry that elevating every veteran to such levels will push that person beyond reproach; just look at McCain. The vast majority of people are willing to overlook that fact that he destroyed four government aircraft, lied about his conduct, and was (even by his own account) a subpar officer who rode his father's coattails. Not to mention his abhorrent behavior as a POW. And then he gets out, becomes a politician, and promptly throws his fellow veterans and POWs under the bus. Unfortunately, though, nobody can publicly criticize him for what he's done without getting slammed by the conservative spin machine. "HEY! He was a POW! YOU CAN'T DISRESPECT HIM LIKE THAT!" Too bad John Kerry, Max Cleland, and others never received the same defense.
Originally Posted by tantrum
why do you think it was abhorrent?

how should a POW act?
Boy, I'm not going near this one...the top of my head will come off and I'll get banned.
Originally Posted by susancnw
You won't come near it, but you'll stand at a distance and poke it, right? Like you're doing right now?

No...I disagreed that he is a hero, and that he deserves any honor for his service. I don't know why you took that to indicate a punch to the military in general. I will assume that was just a misunderstanding of words.

I have no problem with people serving in the military. I served once myself. I respect military members as much as police officers, firefighters, and others who undertake a particular career knowing full well the dangers involved. But, like Trenell said, even these people can sometimes be considered a disgrace. We shouldn't forget that soldiers are people too, and they aren't all perfect. Abu Ghraib, anyone?

Also, I think it's dangerous to lavish so much respect on the military. While it's absolutely a welcome departure from the way we were treated during and after Vietnam, this "superhero status" that service members are enjoying is not always earned. I worry that elevating every veteran to such levels will push that person beyond reproach; just look at McCain. The vast majority of people are willing to overlook that fact that he destroyed four government aircraft, lied about his conduct, and was (even by his own account) a subpar officer who rode his father's coattails. Not to mention his abhorrent behavior as a POW. And then he gets out, becomes a politician, and promptly throws his fellow veterans and POWs under the bus. Unfortunately, though, nobody can publicly criticize him for what he's done without getting slammed by the conservative spin machine. "HEY! He was a POW! YOU CAN'T DISRESPECT HIM LIKE THAT!" Too bad John Kerry, Max Cleland, and others never received the same defense.
Originally Posted by tantrum
tantrum, I agree with all that you've said. I esp. agree with the bolded.
Originally Posted by yagottaloveyacurls
Boy, I'm not going near this one...the top of my head will come off and I'll get banned.
Originally Posted by susancnw
Why? I have military folks in my family just like you. If anything, you should agree with the sentiment above, not disagree. Military personnel are not above the law. I think that was the main point tantrum was trying to make. It's the same type of thing with police officers.... of course, we respect their JOB, but respect for the JOB and respect for a person DOING the job should be based on an individual basis. There are lots of great Officers out there. My Father-in-law being one of them. But there are plenty of awful ones, too... and you have to keep your eyes open and be aware of any bad apples in the crate. Like I said, respect for the JOB. Part of the respect for the job is NOT lavishing respect and praise willy nilly on EVERYONE who DOES that particular job.

There are good soldiers and there are bad soldiers.
Just like with everything else in this world.
I'm not going to instantly lavish respect and praise all over someone that I don't know just because they are a soldier. What if that person is a bad soldier?

Sorry, I don't believe in blind patriotism, I don't believe in forced pledges of allegiance, and I don't instantly put all soldiers on pedestals. I have no problem putting a lot of soldiers on pedestals and praising them for their unselfish service to this country. But that umbrella doesn't instantly cover everyone in the military. And it shouldn't.

Call me unpatriotic, if you wish. But those are my views.
Healing Women - Please help.

Last edited by yagottaloveyacurls; 10-23-2008 at 10:53 PM.
why do you think it was abhorrent?

how should a POW act?
Originally Posted by Sleigh
Good point, I should have been more specific. I meant how he acts as a former POW - not so much how he acted during his captivity. I think he made it through captivity as best he could under the circumstances. He knew they weren't going to kill him because he was an Admiral's son, and I think he still feels guilty about that, but I really can't hold that against him. It's what he's done to his fellow POWs that upsets me. He wasn't the only one who was captured and tortured, but you wouldn't know it from the way he talks. He makes himself out to be some sort of hero just because he survived torture. What about all the others who suffered and died right there with him? He wouldn't even help bring them home . And that just makes me want to cry.
yagotta, you summed up my feelings exactly.
why do you think it was abhorrent?

how should a POW act?
Originally Posted by Sleigh
Good point, I should have been more specific. I meant how he acts as a former POW - not so much how he acted during his captivity. I think he made it through captivity as best he could under the circumstances. He knew they weren't going to kill him because he was an Admiral's son, and I think he still feels guilty about that, but I really can't hold that against him. It's what he's done to his fellow POWs that upsets me. He wasn't the only one who was captured and tortured, but you wouldn't know it from the way he talks. He makes himself out to be some sort of hero just because he survived torture. What about all the others who suffered and died right there with him? He wouldn't even help bring them home . And that just makes me want to cry.
Originally Posted by tantrum
thanks for clarifying. that makes more sense to me -

i am not sure that i entirely agree - but that seems like more of a valid point than pow etiquette

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