Wow, Even Shepard Smith of Fox Can't Stand Joe The Plumber

How are the Republicans fools for "parading" him? The man is one of the main reasons McCain's campaign is still alive and kicking and polling better than Obama on who people trust to handle the economy. Is Joe really scamming everyone or taking advantage of the opportunity he's been presented. Joe's not a stupid man. Not everyone is comfortable at talking about how dangerous they find Obama to be. I don't trust Obama to defend Israel for crap. But I wouldn't go into details into why on live television.
Originally Posted by CottonCandyCurls
LOL..yea I can't wait until Obama gets elected so we can wipe Israel off the map!!
And btw- Hillary would tear Palin apart.
Originally Posted by Skram1113
LOL, I can't even imagine what Hillary would begin to do with Palin!
...he works for a plumbing company and under his boss's certification while he completes his apprenticeship and paperwork.
Originally Posted by CottonCandyCurls
Unlike some other states, Ohio does not have a formal statewide licensing system for plumbers. But the city of Toledo and other municipalities do, Mr. Joseph said, and Mr. Wurzelbacher has not met those requirements.

“All contractors are licensed, and he does not have a license, either as a contractor or a plumber,” the union official said, citing a search of government records. “I can’t find that he’s ever even applied for any kind of apprenticeship, and he has never belonged to local 189 in Columbus, which is what he claims on his Facebook page.”

(Mr. Joseph is Thomas Joseph, head of the union local for plumbers in Toledo, where Mr. Wurzelbacher lives.)

you're REALLY gullible
Originally Posted by rouquinne
I'm glad that instead of focusing on taxes, small business, civil liberties, or anything else about your candidate you'd rather talk ad nauseaum about a plumber in Ohio and relish the character assasination. Good for you. Y'all can keep at it, trash Joe Schmoe for asking a question. God knows no citizen can ask a question to a potential president. Especially if said question receives a mangled answer. Joe just had it coming.

Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain. Like how ohio officials and clerks have admittedly invaded his privacy. For what? To score political points. Last time there was a plot that involved plumbers and the illegal accessing of information we called it Watergate.

And I'm supposed to take the word of a union boss, who with his union threw support to Obama back in January over the people who actually license plumbers in the state of Ohio.

"Wurzelbacher still would need to be a licensed apprentice or journeyman to work in the city of Toledo and Lucas County — and he's not, according to David Golis, manager and residential building official for the Toledo Division of Building Inspection and Cheryl Schimming of Lucas County Building Regulations.
The two agencies handle plumber licenses in the area."

"Cheryl Schimming, a permit specialist for the Lucas County Building Regulations Department,
which licenses plumbers, confirmed that Wurzelbacher does not have a license but that [his boss, Al]
Newell does hold an Ohio license. But Wurzelbacher told reporters, and Schimming agreed,
that because he works for a licensed plumber, he is not required to have one."

And here's information on the state of Ohio.
“The Ohio Construction Industry Licensing Board (O.C.I.L.B.), Department of Commerce,
Division of Industrial Compliance, issues state commercial licenses to the following contractors:
electrical, HVAC, hydronics, plumbing, and refrigeration. To receive a state license, an applicant must meet the following requirements:
(1) be at least 18 years of age; (2) be a United States citizen or a legal alien-must provide proof of being a legal alien; (3) either have been a tradesperson in the type of licensed trade for which the application is filed for not less than five years immediately prior to the date the application is filed, currently be a registered engineer in this state with three years of business experience in the construction industry in the trade for which the engineer is applying to take the examination, or have other experience acceptable to the appropriate section of the board; (4) not have been convicted of or plead guilty to a misdemeanor involving moral turpitude or of any felony; (5) pass the examination in the trade; (6) carry minimum $500,000 contractor liability coverage; (7) pay the applicable fees”

As I said before. That's it? Joe Schmoe is not the fool here. Sorry. Try again.
CCC,

You always seem so angry when speaking against Obama. Maybe you should lay off the politics.... or not. I mean, it's your life

I can't wait until Nov. 4th... I think I'm gonna throw a watch party!
Originally Posted by A_la_Nap-tural
How is that I seem angry? I'm told on here that I'm a troll, I drink kool-aid, i'm gullible, have my head in the clouds among other things. People post rolling eye icons, vomit icons, claim that I don't care for the other human beings, insult my intelligence yet I'm the one with a bad attitude. I'm sorry I don't take crap from some of the people on this board. I'm sorry that I can not be some clone of everyone else's political vies. I try to have discussions, bring different points of view, play devil's advocate and provide more information to the forum. But if anyone thinks I will not dish out back what I receive, they have got another thing coming. I've been involved in politics for the longest time, so it's really is no sweat of my back. Have a fun party. I'm having one as well with different drinks for all the nominees.
It's actually quite simple... The reason the McCain campaign looks silly is because they planted someone at a rally who falsely represented himself, and they are all continuing to falsely represent him, when we all know that he is not what he said he was.

There is nothing wrong with asking questions of the candidates. Good for him that he got the chance. But, he did not need to misrepresent himself to ask the question he did. He is living a fantasy, and allowing that fantasy to influence his decisions. And since the McCain campaign continues to trot him about, it makes it seem as though they are all for misrepresentations. Not really a good thing for a presidential candidate, if you ask me.

It's actually quite simple... The reason the McCain campaign looks silly is because they planted someone at a rally who falsely represented himself, and they are all continuing to falsely represent him, when we all know that he is not what he said he was.

There is nothing wrong with asking questions of the candidates. Good for him that he got the chance. But, he did not need to misrepresent himself to ask the question he did. He is living a fantasy, and allowing that fantasy to influence his decisions. And since the McCain campaign continues to trot him about, it makes it seem as though they are all for misrepresentations. Not really a good thing for a presidential candidate, if you ask me.
Originally Posted by CocoaCoily
One: Obama was walking around in Joe's Ohio neighborhood. This was not a rally. So a presidential candidate is making the rounds in your neighborhood, you're in front of your house with your kid and you seize the moment and jump to ask a question. Please explain how that makes you a "plant" and how being in front of your own house is remotely close to being at a "rally"

Two: he didn't falsely represent himself. I posted more information about the requirements of being a plumber and you can go back and check exactly what Joe said. The guy is a middle-class plumber who wants to own a plumbing business. And?

Three: He can ask any question he wants and it is not living a fantasy to have dreams and ambitions bigger than your current circumstance. I'm so disturbed by people who dismiss wanting to have a business or make more money as a fantasy. Am I not living in America. The land of opportunity with the pursuit of happiness and the American Dream.

I'm glad my immigrant parents didn't meet people who think like you do. Allowing their fantasy delusions for a better life influence their decisions back then. I'm glad my husband and I also ignored people who think enterpreneurship is a fantasy or living in a dreamworld. I've known quite a few rags to riches types who when poor voted on policies not just for today but for tommorow. They voted not just for their own wealth but for the economic well-being of the country so that they too could make something better down the road. They worked hard and some struck it pretty rich. This does not make them deluded or misguided. This makes them hard-working Americans who took some risks, went through a cycle of failure and success and made something of themselves.

My uncle, a staunch Democrat, who is about to launch a new business is leery of Obama's policies too. He lived through Carter and felt the pinch before. That's when a startup of his went bust. And he's siding with McGovern, the sole Democrat opposing the poorly named "Employee Free Choice Act"

Four: This kind of silly judgmentalist tone so many are taking against one guy and one question is maddening. Once again instead of debating the merits of the answer people would like to shoot the messenger. If Joe the Plumber was Xyborg the Martian, I really don't care. My concern is the answer given by the guy who wants to be President. More Americans are going to focus on the message not the messenger. I have yet to hear Obama get into the meat of just how he plans to spend taxpayer dollars on so many new entitlements. Where does he think that money is going to come from? And why is he disregarding the GAO one of the few honorable, non-partisan, working federal institutions, that says our current New Deal entitlement program are completely unsustainable. Two leading think tanks from the right and left agree. We are at the tipping point here! But No, let's pile on Joe the Plumber instead. Who cares if the economy goes down the drain.
hee, rush-flavored kool-aid
Originally Posted by CurlyGina2
Ad hominem attack don't work on me or Joe the Plumber. When you have some actual points or arguments then I might take you seriously. And I don't drink Rush or any kind of flavored kool-aid. That artificial crap is not good for you. Thanks for you comment.
It's actually quite simple... The reason the McCain campaign looks silly is because they planted someone at a rally who falsely represented himself, and they are all continuing to falsely represent him, when we all know that he is not what he said he was.

There is nothing wrong with asking questions of the candidates. Good for him that he got the chance. But, he did not need to misrepresent himself to ask the question he did. He is living a fantasy, and allowing that fantasy to influence his decisions. And since the McCain campaign continues to trot him about, it makes it seem as though they are all for misrepresentations. Not really a good thing for a presidential candidate, if you ask me.
Originally Posted by CocoaCoily
One: Obama was walking around in Joe's Ohio neighborhood. This was not a rally. So a presidential candidate is making the rounds in your neighborhood, you're in front of your house with your kid and you seize the moment and jump to ask a question. Please explain how that makes you a "plant" and how being in front of your own house is remotely close to being at a "rally"

Two: he didn't falsely represent himself. I posted more information about the requirements of being a plumber and you can go back and check exactly what Joe said. The guy is a middle-class plumber who wants to own a plumbing business. And?

Three: He can ask any question he wants and it is not living a fantasy to have dreams and ambitions bigger than your current circumstance. I'm so disturbed by people who dismiss wanting to have a business or make more money as a fantasy. Am I not living in America. The land of opportunity with the pursuit of happiness and the American Dream.

I'm glad my immigrant parents didn't meet people who think like you do. Allowing their fantasy delusions for a better life influence their decisions back then. I'm glad my husband and I also ignored people who think enterpreneurship is a fantasy or living in a dreamworld. I've known quite a few rags to riches types who when poor voted on policies not just for today but for tommorow. They voted not just for their own wealth but for the economic well-being of the country so that they too could make something better down the road. They worked hard and some struck it pretty rich. This does not make them deluded or misguided. This makes them hard-working Americans who took some risks, went through a cycle of failure and success and made something of themselves.

My uncle, a staunch Democrat, who is about to launch a new business is leery of Obama's policies too. He lived through Carter and felt the pinch before. That's when a startup of his went bust. And he's siding with McGovern, the sole Democrat opposing the poorly named "Employee Free Choice Act"

Four: This kind of silly judgmentalist tone so many are taking against one guy and one question is maddening. Once again instead of debating the merits of the answer people would like to shoot the messenger. If Joe the Plumber was Xyborg the Martian, I really don't care. My concern is the answer given by the guy who wants to be President. More Americans are going to focus on the message not the messenger. I have yet to hear Obama get into the meat of just how he plans to spend taxpayer dollars on so many new entitlements. Where does he think that money is going to come from? And why is he disregarding the GAO one of the few honorable, non-partisan, working federal institutions, that says our current New Deal entitlement program are completely unsustainable. Two leading think tanks from the right and left agree. We are at the tipping point here! But No, let's pile on Joe the Plumber instead. Who cares if the economy goes down the drain.
Originally Posted by CottonCandyCurls

CottonCandyCurls - I love your posts btw, you just keep on posting!

As to the bolded sentences, you have hit the nail on the head. The MSM and liberals continue to focus on Joe instead of the answer Joe was given. Once again, their focus is warped.
misspam i agree - how does one spread the wealth around?

and who decides who needs more wealth?

was that ever discussed?
(not sarcasm)
Another simple thing to understand, and something we've all been hearing about and witnessing for several years now, is that people like your average CEO have enjoyed compensation increases of up to or above 50ish% while the average salaried employee hasn't been nearly as lucky with a paltry 5ish%. The wealth that is being created is not being shared in an equitable fashion. And, please, if anyone says that that CEO deserves his $10m - $100m bonus check more than the employees under him deserve a check in the amount of 50% of their salaries, your computer will explode in your face. Just a warning.

Meanwhile, some of these same CEOs have run their business into the ground so much that our government just used our money to bail them out.

The wealth is already being spread around. Except it's not being spread around to those who could really use some, and who do work to help create it.

I'm also tired of the, "if I work harder than someone else, I shouldn't be taxed for it" argument. I make more than a nurse or teacher, but somehow, I don't think that I necessarily work harder than they do. I also make way more than a cop or fireman, but I can't say that I work harder, and my cushy office job is certainly not remotely as perilous. So, that argument does not really hold water.

Regarding this plumber guy... He said on GMA that he was contacted and asked to show up at a rally, but that he happened to be there and Obama showed up. Both sides of the mouth much? I doubt that it was the Obama campaign that contacted him. One could easily conclude that he was a plant. The fact that the McCain campaign has latched onto him could be considered confirmation. And by latching onto him they put him under a spotlight.

Moreover, he is not in a position to buy the business, and the business's revenues are only $100k. So, he presented himself to appear as one thing, when in actuality he is another.

What is it they say about the simplest explanation usually being the right one? Mhmm.

McCain could have easily, and with more validity, made his points without the use of a transparent and pathetic tactic. But, he'd rather use a personification of an exaggeration, (Joe the plumber) because people are tiring of the elusive caricature (Joe six pack) that he was using before.

What is most ironic about this, is that now he has a publicist (huh?), is looking in a book or record deal (what?), and other such mess, and may now actually be able to parlay his 15 minutes into some money. Possibly more than $250k. And all because he asked Obama a question! He might want to say thanks.


Further, who got a stimulus check? Because I didn't. I hope you're spending "my" money wisely.

Lastly, there is nothing at all wrong with wanting to ask questions of your candidates, or with having dreams and goals. Don't try to associate ridiculous opinions to me.


Last edited by CocoaCoily; 11-01-2008 at 09:49 AM.
...he works for a plumbing company and under his boss's certification while he completes his apprenticeship and paperwork.
Originally Posted by CottonCandyCurls
Unlike some other states, Ohio does not have a formal statewide licensing system for plumbers. But the city of Toledo and other municipalities do, Mr. Joseph said, and Mr. Wurzelbacher has not met those requirements.

“All contractors are licensed, and he does not have a license, either as a contractor or a plumber,” the union official said, citing a search of government records. “I can’t find that he’s ever even applied for any kind of apprenticeship, and he has never belonged to local 189 in Columbus, which is what he claims on his Facebook page.”

(Mr. Joseph is Thomas Joseph, head of the union local for plumbers in Toledo, where Mr. Wurzelbacher lives.)

you're REALLY gullible
Originally Posted by rouquinne

Hahaha. Oh, snap!
Rather than love, than money, than fame, give me truth. I sat at a table where were rich food and wine in abundance, and obsequious attendance, but sincerity and truth were not;
and I went away hungry from the inhospitable board.
-Henry David Thoreau
I find it very interesting that Joe the Plumber has become such a big issue to so many liberals. He is a private citizen who asked a question. Maybe you find fault at his asking because he "has no license" or "doesn't have the money to buy the business," but I look at it as a representative question of millions of other people out there. Maybe looking at it in that perspective is why so many people want to tear him down. . . he had a legitimate question. Find fault with him, do whatever you want, though I find it petty in the scheme of things, but what about all those people who are "Joe the Plumber" and want a straight forward answer to his question.

Bill Ayers isn't important, Rev. Wright isn't important, but Joe the Plumber is? This I don't understand.

I personally find Obama's relationship with Ayers more important. I am voting for him, but I find it an area that should have been addressed much deeper. . . at least much deeper than Joe the Plumber's background.
3b/c
I find it very interesting that Joe the Plumber has become such a big issue to so many liberals. He is a private citizen who asked a question.
Originally Posted by munchkin
I don't think anyone had an issue with Joe-the-private-citizen and his question. Obama answered his question and I think he answered it clearly.

It was the fact that John McCain elevated this Joe to the central theme of his campaign, mentioned him 20 times in the debate, referenced him in every speech, trotted him out at rallies and sent him out to talk to the networks. At which point Joe was not longer just a private citizen, but a spokesperson for the McCain campaign. Don't you think that before McCain's campaign decided to make this guy such a celebrity that they should have made sure their facts (and his) were straight?


I find it very interesting that Joe the Plumber has become such a big issue to so many liberals. He is a private citizen who asked a question.
Originally Posted by munchkin
I don't think anyone had an issue with Joe-the-private-citizen and his question. Obama answered his question and I think he answered it clearly.

It was the fact that John McCain elevated this Joe to the central theme of his campaign, mentioned him 20 times in the debate, referenced him in every speech, trotted him out at rallies and sent him out to talk to the networks. At which point Joe was not longer just a private citizen, but a spokesperson for the McCain campaign. Don't you think that before McCain's campaign decided to make this guy such a celebrity that they should have made sure their facts (and his) were straight?
Originally Posted by mad scientist
Exactly!

I find it very interesting that Joe the Plumber has become such a big issue to so many liberals. He is a private citizen who asked a question.
Originally Posted by munchkin
I don't think anyone had an issue with Joe-the-private-citizen and his question. Obama answered his question and I think he answered it clearly.

It was the fact that John McCain elevated this Joe to the central theme of his campaign, mentioned him 20 times in the debate, referenced him in every speech, trotted him out at rallies and sent him out to talk to the networks. At which point Joe was not longer just a private citizen, but a spokesperson for the McCain campaign. Don't you think that before McCain's campaign decided to make this guy such a celebrity that they should have made sure their facts (and his) were straight?
Originally Posted by mad scientist
His question was representative of many people out there. When John McCain brought him up in the debate, I took it as that "representative of the many people this question would or could affect." Not that Joe the Plumber was one person but one of many. I don't think Joe would have become so big in the days to follow if the liberal media hadn't planted themselves on his door step and hadn't hounded the guy so much. The fact that a Democrat somewhere in the Ohio government took it upon him or herself to dig into his past was just plain petty and useless.
3b/c
Dear G-d, where do I begin?

For One, regarding the diatribe on CEO pay, what exactly are you proposing salary caps and living wages? That's way too much government intrusion for my and many people's liking. Moreover it will not lead to any desired outcomes. I can't even scratch the surface on corporate governance, executive pay and wages, those issues would be two or three other threads.

Moving on, you are grossly oversimplifying the subprime mortgage crisis! This crisis actually started with the abuses of federal power and some loopy and warped liberal interpretations of fairness and equality. Right now, I don't have the time or the energy to explain or go into a summary of the problem. Professors are writing whole books on the process as I type. But I wouldn't disregard the role the federal government and federal reserve played in creating a toxic economic climate.

It would be wise to read up on the following before you jump to conclusions on what the subprime crisis was about and who is at fault.

The Glass Steagall Act of 1933
The Bank Holding Company Act of 1956
The Community Reinvestment Act of 1977
The Deregulation and Monetary Control Act of 1980
The Alternative Mortgage Transaction Parity Act of 1982
The Tax Reform Act of 1986
The Riegle-Neal Insterstate Banking and Branching Efficiency Act of 1994
The Financial Services Modernization Act of 1999
The Commodity Futures Modernization Act of 2000

Also the Role of:
Government Sponsored Enterprises: FNMA and FHLMC
Greenspans Interest Rate Cuts of 2001
State and Federal Usury Laws
Association of Community Organizers for Reform Now
Barney Frank, Franklin Raines, Henry Cisneros,
Roberta Achtenberg, Robert Rubin, Phil Gramm, Jim Leach, Chris Dodd and plenty more I'm sure.

But hey, I can just sum all that up into CEOs suck. In fact let's encourage the people who want something for nothing with more irresponsibility and marxist soaked policy positions. And no computer is going to blow up in my face, unless you subscribe to some Weather Underground nonsense that those who don't believe in communist goals and ideas should be executed en masse.

Two, the bailout was and still is BS. I've said that in every post I've ever put on here. There were alternatives that were ignored and I'm glad my Congressman was one of the few intelligent people in DC who opposed it twice. So let's not cite a crappy policy as more reasons to bankrupt government with more socialism. This is exactly why some people didn't like the bailout to begin with. It doesn't solve the problem, and people with the same mindset will latch on to it asking for more handouts and I don't care if it's a corporation or a regular person. Welfare is welfare.

Sorry if you're tired of the "if I work harder than someone else, I shouldn't be taxed [more] for it" but it's not going anywhere. And a more accurate assesment would be "If I utilize my talents and earn more money for my effort, I'm entitled to the fruits of my labor" Either way, even Tocqueville saw these attitudes in America way back in the 1800's. The Frontier Spirit, the Puritan Work Ethic, it's all part of our cultural DNA. Americans have always believed through hard work and ingenuity we can achieve great wealth. We have always had a general distrust of and distaste for elites, government and taxes. You will not hear the end of anything that remotely stems from the above beliefs because they shape our national psyche.

Personally I prefer a flat or fair tax to the progressive tax system we have. I make my money and I earn my money. The idea behind capitalism is that the market awards my talents based on what other people demand and our willing to reward. It's not just "working harder". A crappy singer can bust her ass, tour the country and sing til she's blue in the face. If people don't want to buy her CD's, she's broke. Your logic is failing here. People have skills and talents they can develop and exploit, all people are asking is to keep more of the money they earn and be allowed to spend and invest it as they, not a bureaucrat, sees fit.

Regarding Joe on GMA he was talking about being contacted to show up at a rally after the fact.
Listen to the interview again. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jHmiYTODqpU
He was not contacted by anyone before meeting Obama. Obama was in his neighborhood and Joe asked a question. He was contacted by the campaign to go to a rally after the story broke and Obama started to get some heat for his "spread the wealth" answer. And that was smart thinking on the McCain campaign's part to seize the situation. You might not care for Joe but he resonates with a lot of Americans and has given a boost to the McCain campaign. Again it's hilarious to hear the opposition critique who McCain picks for VP or who he has on the stump with him. Because yeah McCain and his supporters really need to hear your advice especially when all the things you don't like increase McCain's standing in the "polls" and resonate with electorate.

And who was tired of Joe Six Pack? Americans ate that stuff up. Every election cycle a candidate from either of the major parties latches onto some kind of Americana. This is campaign public relations 101. Again if you don't care for it, fine. But to make it seem like it's pathetic or not neccessary is kind of ridiculous. Hockey mom is the new soccer mom. And in 2012 we'll have something new to dissect and discuss.

Also every election cycle there is a turning point in the campaign that illustrates a salient point. And it's usually something that may seem trivial to some but crystallizes a lot of concerns the general populace and/or media is having. I'm thinking of Dukakis in the tank, Kerry windsurfing, the Dean scream, Bush and grocery food scanner. It's all old hat, potatoe potato.

And what is ironic that in our media-centric reality TV age, a man who already has an enterpreneurial spirit decides to seize the occassion. Would you prefer he twiddle his thumbs and stay in his house? Stick to drains and septic systems? Disregard any other aspirations he's had since childhood so you can feel better that Joe knows his place? Give me a break

And who gives a flip that he's in a position to buy the business. Asking questions about business, taxes and politics and mentally filing them away until you are in the position to use that knowledge is smart! There's a saying for it: Begin with The End in Mind. My friend's dad came to this country with no money and barely spoke english. He started off as a janitor in a mall, learned the language and kept informed in everything that was going on around him. He now owns a chain of stores on the West Coast. When he asked various people questions about business, taxes, and politics was he in a position to do anything about it? No. But he figured he need to prepare himself for the challenges ahead and he wanted to live and work in a favorable business and political climate that would let him freely pursue his ambitions.

Also the the company Joe worked for had revenue over 500K. http://www.manta.com/coms2/dnbcompany_dp1mf9. I don't know where you got that 100K number from, but it's wrong like almost every other inaccurate thing that has been posted about this plumber on here.

And I didn't get a stimulus check. I didn't qualify and I didn't want one. I agreed with Bloomberg when he said giving a stimulus check to Americans at this time is like "buying an alcoholic a drink." It was another stupid idea from the Bush administration. Again why are you citing a dumb political move as any kind of justification for spreading the wealth, like it's a good thing. I've been pretty consistent with my dislike for this kind of nonsense.

As for associating those things with you. I don't have to that, you do that all on your own. The reaction to Joe has been character assasination and calling his desires to have a profitable business silly wishful thinking. These are things you and others have said.

Here's what you said in this thread:
"He did not need to misrepresent himself to ask the question he did.
[No one has shown how he misrepresented himself]

He is living a fantasy, and allowing that fantasy to influence his decisions. [What I see as entrepreneurial spirit, ambition, forecasting the political and economic climate, you call fantasy]

If you deem those things to be ridiculous you can stop posting the ridiculous.

It's difficult to have a discussion with many people on this forum who present so much misleading information and fail to read up on the issues at hand.

This is my last post on Joe the Plumber. Everyone here has an internet connection and can look up the facts. Citing the opinion of a union boss, misquoting the man's own words, shooting the messenger, ignoring the message, ignoring privacy violations, railing against CEO's and the "selfish"...I'm sorry guys none of these things are going to cut it.

I can't wait til McCain wins 293+ on Tuesday and this kind of ridiculousness can die down.

I hope more of this dialogue continues, even if McCain happens to win.

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