House Passes $819 Billion Economic Stimulus

I wish people could get the irony of having an economic stimulus bill in the first place. Because the government has never been the economic engine of the country. It's the people, their small business, their ingenuity. There is nothing in that bill that gives me any indication the politicos in Washington understand that fact.
Originally Posted by CottonCandyCurls
I don't know how I could possibly agree with that statement. The U.S. government is a ginormous economic force to be reckoned with, hands down.

I'm not saying it's the only force, or the driving force. Your other points are well taken. But I think you severely underestimate the gov't role.
The people who benefit from this misinformation and confusion are obviously the same ones eating at the taxpayer trough. Is it any wonder that DC has some of the wealthiest districts in the country even though they produce nothing?
Originally Posted by CottonCandyCurls
I'm confused by this. Do you mean neighborhoods?

And when I lived there, I didn't see anymore ostentatious wealth than other cities I've lived in. And, in fact, quite a lot rather desperately poor areas.

As for producing nothing that's rather an outdated model in the information age. I often produce "nothing" day-to-day, but I'm rather a busy little bee over here.
I don't see how this is a talking point at all. It was actually what I first thought before I heard the Republicans give their little press conference. It actually reminds me of the other pork that irked me in the previous bailout.
Originally Posted by CottonCandyCurls
Kudos on that prescience [no snark here], but it is a talking point on this issue. Seen it in many, many places in the last several days.

But I disagree with you. I think it's a good thing to help prevent unwanted pregnancies, and that goes eleventy-billion-gazillion times when economic times are tough.

Because who cares for the children when their parents cannot? We do and that costs $$$$$$. A condom is cheap by comparison.
Originally Posted by wild~hair
The problem is there is little to no evidence of this nor is their a justification of the cost our clear outline of how those funds will be allocated and spent. And why additional funding is need over the baseline already set.

I will give you credit that there is some hypocrisy among some House GOP member. In a display of consistency I will say I also found the taxpayer funding of Viagra ridiculous and I don't remember anywhere near as many politicos raising a stink on that little blue pill.

Back to the lack of data. Here's some interesting counter-intuitive information.

For instance, long-term studies by Duke economist V. Joseph Hotz and colleagues, published in 2005, found that by age 35, former teen moms had earned more in income, paid more in taxes, were substantially less likely to live in poverty and collected less in public assistance than similarly poor women who waited until their 20s to have babies. Women who became mothers in their teens -- freed from child-raising duties by their late 20s and early 30s to pursue employment while poorer women who waited to become moms were still stuck at home watching their young children -- wound up paying more in taxes than they had collected in welfare.

Eight years earlier, the federally commissioned report "Kids Having Kids" also contained a similar finding, though it was buried: "Adolescent childbearers fare slightly better than later-childbearing counterparts in terms of their overall economic welfare."
(Source: http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/...,4392044.story)

So until they can justify the how, why, and when. I fail to see the urgency. They could have pushed the bill with it in there. Why blame Republicans Democrats do have the majority and can pass legislation without them. The Republicans had more problem with a lot of the other crazy funding in there but like I said earlier abortion was more buzz-worthy.

And whether you are for the federal funding of contraceptives you didn't answer my questions on how that stimulates the economy and why it should be in an economic STIMULUS bill.

I'm skipping your last sentence as it is emotional and unsupported and at that rate why don't we start promoting a Chinese like child quota. Talk about cutting health, housing and education costs (a little bit of snark there). It wasn't that long ago when Democrats were actively campaigning for the sterilization of the mentally ill so they could be less a burden on the welfare state. There are huge ethical and moral problems obviously. And I similarly don't take kindly to Pelosi's silly proclamations on cost burdens of citizens.

Last edited by CottonCandyCurls; 01-29-2009 at 04:23 PM.
And whether you are for the federal funding of contraceptives you didn't answer my questions on how that stimulates the economy and why it should be in an economic STIMULUS bill.
Originally Posted by CottonCandyCurls
Reproductive rights have a hell of a lot to do with bettering one's economic prospects.

Because a pregnant women must take at least some time away from work.

Because moms or dads, who might not be able to afford daycare and have no other recourse, cannot work.

Because it mires people in a cycle of poverty.

I'm skipping your last sentence as it is emotional and unsupported ....
Originally Posted by CottonCandyCurls
Funny, I really didn't feel that emotional writing it. I thought I was being all fiscally prudent and whatnot.

Oh well, I can always try to do better! [< yes, this is snark. I mean, I read all your stuff, the least you can do is deign to read mine. I mean, jeez.]

... and at that rate why don't we start promoting a Chinese like child quota. Talk about cutting health, housing and education costs (a little bit of snark there). It wasn't that long ago when Democrats were actively campaigning for the sterilization of the mentally ill so they could be less a burden on the welfare state. There are huge ethical and moral problems obviously. And I similarly don't take kindly to Pelosi's silly proclamations on cost burdens of citizens.
Originally Posted by CottonCandyCurls
Hold on there. You're taking my point and running far, far, far away with it. No one said anything about forcing people to not have kids.

Well, you did, but I sure didn't.
The people who benefit from this misinformation and confusion are obviously the same ones eating at the taxpayer trough. Is it any wonder that DC has some of the wealthiest districts in the country even though they produce nothing?
Originally Posted by CottonCandyCurls
I'm confused by this. Do you mean neighborhoods?

And when I lived there, I didn't see anymore ostentatious wealth than other cities I've lived in. And, in fact, quite a lot rather desperately poor areas.

As for producing nothing that's rather an outdated model in the information age. I often produce "nothing" day-to-day, but I'm rather a busy little bee over here.
Originally Posted by wild~hair
Wealthiest Districts
http://thehill.com/leading-the-news/...006-02-28.html

Fat Cat Republican Myth
http://www.heritage.org/Press/Commentary/ed110607a.cfm

As for producing nothing, the model still applies in the information age. Or were you one of those people who invested in some dot-com bubbles. People who are interested in real wealth have it backed up by something. But since everyone is in love with fiat money I can see how it would be easy to overlook that. There are plenty of Econ 101 examples that would point out how building things on air is unsustainable and destructive.

And since I just saw your comment above. I don't see what is hard to understand. Most of the innovation and advancement is coming from the private sector, specifically small business. The US Government eats and redistributes what it does not produce! Otherwise we wouldn't use the word redistribute.

I never said it wasn't a force, in fact it has in recent years been a wrecking ball. It is just not and will never be the economic engine, nor was government in the history of human civilization ever meant to be. That's why it's called administration.

Government by design exists to protect and defend. I can't believe that even has to be explained. They can provide a context, a climate, some order and security for people to create wealth. But the State doesn't create it, unless you subscribe to the many failed theories of Marx. When the State tries to "create" wealth it eventually collapses in on itself. I know people give lots of credit to Reagan for bringing down Russia. But socialism by design always fails because it is built on the false premise that government can create wealth. Re-reading your comment I don't even see what it is that you disagree with or what's so difficult to understand. Maybe I missed something you said earlier.
Did you actually read any of the studies I posted. Have you provided any evidence of the net gain and a justification of the current cost (including inflation that we are creating by printing this money)

I did read it, it was a retread of what you said, and again completely unsupported. So we should write bill just on how we feel they play out in the real world or how they actually play out in the real world. Because the latter is the basis of economics. The former is just opinion-making.

I was actually building off of Pelosi's idiotic comments. And pointing out the implications of logic that assigns arbitrary cost burdens on citizens. Read her exact quote and follow the loopiness.

STEPHANOPOULOS: Hundreds of millions of dollars to expand family planning services. How is that stimulus?

PELOSI: Well, the family planning services reduce cost. They reduce cost. The states are in terrible fiscal budget crises now and part of what we do for children's health, education and some of those elements are to help the states meet their financial needs. One of those - one of the initiatives you mentioned, the contraception, will reduce costs to the states and to the federal government.

STEPHANOPOULOS: So no apologies for that?

PELOSI: No apologies. No. we have to deal with the consequences of the downturn in our economy.
So does that mean before the recession teenage pregnancy was ok. This woman really gets on my last nerve. And lets just say that she really was concerned about the cost of additional citizens why isn't her illegal immigration policy consistent with that. Why is she for the amnesty of millions of unlawful immigrants who tend to be lower income and already extract those government funded resources? Give me a break. This is pure politics. What's worse no one can show how it stimulates the economy or reduces costs or is justified at this point in time.

I will also just throw out there that the two former teenage mothers I know are some of the most responsible people I've ever met. Both were poor, one white the other hispanic (if that is relevant to anyone) One in particular learned the hard way how to be an adult, juggling school and work and the stigma that comes from having a child at an early age. She was more together than any of her college age peers and now is married with a pretty good job and more children. Sorry she doesn't fit into the anecdotal victim that is part and parcel with "we have to tax and spend" club. And she was never "punished with a baby" Her daughter is one of the best things that happened to her.

Last edited by CottonCandyCurls; 01-29-2009 at 05:15 PM.
I'm sure there's pork in the package. That's too bad. There have to be tax cuts and there has to be spending. The way to get it done would have been to Steve Pence (out of Indiana, should have been McCain's running mate but I digress), Nancy Pelosi, and the most moderate house person in a room. No food, no phone, no Web. Tell them that they had 10 hours of oxygen to come up with a plan. No plan - no oxygen.
Originally Posted by Myradella3
That may be the most brilliant suggestion I have ever read! Although I'm not sure lack of oxygen will hurt Pelosi, a tree sloth on qualudes could mentally outmaneuver her
Giving money and power to government is like giving whiskey and car keys to teenage boys. P.J. O'Rourke

There is no distinctly native American criminal class save Congress. Mark Twain
Pelosi, a tree sloth on qualudes could mentally outmaneuver her
Originally Posted by Ella

I nominate this as Quote of the Day!
I'm sure there's pork in the package. That's too bad. There have to be tax cuts and there has to be spending. The way to get it done would have been to Steve Pence (out of Indiana, should have been McCain's running mate but I digress), Nancy Pelosi, and the most moderate house person in a room. No food, no phone, no Web. Tell them that they had 10 hours of oxygen to come up with a plan. No plan - no oxygen.
Originally Posted by Myradella3
That's actually Mike Pence.

But, I do like your novel idea.
Originally Posted by misspam
You know I know that. I was talking to a guy named Steve while typing. I've admired him for awhile. He has common sense and espouses his opinions well. I think that a McCain/Pence team would made this campaign quite different.

Last edited by Myradella3; 01-29-2009 at 06:35 PM.
Here's my theory:

The Dems put the birth control money in the bill because it's something they want, but also as a tool. It's a fairly expendable item to them, which is why they took it out right away as a concession to the Reps, because the Reps always object to contraception. Now that the Reps have all voted no, the Dems will threaten to put the contraception back in the bill, which will make the Reps start to vote yes...because you know how the Reps like to govern everything that goes on in people's private bedrooms. We can't have money going to S-E-X!

My prediction:

The bill will eventually pass with bi-partisan support, without the contraceptive item.
3cCurly, posting that picture was totally uncalled for. You could have made your point/snark without resorting to that. Please remove the image.

RCW and JELsea, could you please remove the image from the quoted portion of your posts? I don't want to edit for you.

Thanks.
Originally Posted by MedussaGuide

Honestly, you need to stop abusing your powers as a moderator because it's clear you are very bias and lack judgment. If I say something that goes against the grain or not in line with the sheep here you have a tendency to go off me on or others that don't agree while you stay idle and allow others on attack mode.

This is freedom of speech and you we're wrong for taking the picture down it was neither harmless or offensive. It was a joke and directed towards the condescending/snarky comment I received RedCatWaves.

Attention to all hyper sensitive anal retentive's that have issues with the picture, Please do yourself a favor "lighten up" and get a sense of humor.


Last edited by 3cCurly; 01-30-2009 at 01:01 PM.
3cCurly, posting that picture was totally uncalled for. You could have made your point/snark without resorting to that. Please remove the image.

RCW and JELsea, could you please remove the image from the quoted portion of your posts? I don't want to edit for you.

Thanks.
Originally Posted by MedussaGuide

Honestly, you need to stop abusing your powers as a moderator because it's clear you have a very bias and lack of judgment. If I say something that goes against the grain or not in line with the sheep here you have a tendency to go off me on me or any others that don't agree while you stay idle and allow others on attack mode.

This is freedom of speech and you we're wrong for taking the picture down it was neither harmless or offensive. It was a joke and directed towards the condescending/snarky comment I received RedCatWaves.

Attention to all hyper sensitive anal retentive's that have issues with the picture, Please do yourself a favor "lighten up" and get a sense of humor.

Originally Posted by 3cCurly


What's a "very bias"?
Guide18
Guest
Posts: n/a
3cCurly, posting that picture was totally uncalled for. You could have made your point/snark without resorting to that. Please remove the image.

RCW and JELsea, could you please remove the image from the quoted portion of your posts? I don't want to edit for you.

Thanks.
Originally Posted by MedussaGuide

Honestly, you need to stop abusing your powers as a moderator because it's clear you are very bias and lack judgment. If I say something that goes against the grain or not in line with the sheep here you have a tendency to go off me on or others that don't agree while you stay idle and allow others on attack mode.

This is freedom of speech and you we're wrong for taking the picture down it was neither harmless or offensive. It was a joke and directed towards the condescending/snarky comment I received RedCatWaves.

Attention to all hyper sensitive anal retentive's that have issues with the picture, Please do yourself a favor "lighten up" and get a sense of humor.

Originally Posted by 3cCurly
3cCurly, we had an avalanche of reports on that picture. (None of which came from RCW, by the way.) It was considered offensive regardless of the context in which it was posted, and regardless of whether you intended it to be a joke. It's not a case of one or two "hypersensitive" members. Please take a moment to think before posting.
3cCurly, we had an avalanche of reports on that picture. (None of which came from RCW, by the way.)
Originally Posted by SuZenGuide

RCW has never reported or complained about any post or poster, ever. Tattletale-ing is not my style.
3cCurly, posting that picture was totally uncalled for. You could have made your point/snark without resorting to that. Please remove the image.

RCW and JELsea, could you please remove the image from the quoted portion of your posts? I don't want to edit for you.

Thanks.
Originally Posted by MedussaGuide

Honestly, you need to stop abusing your powers as a moderator because it's clear you are very bias and lack judgment. If I say something that goes against the grain or not in line with the sheep here you have a tendency to go off me on or others that don't agree while you stay idle and allow others on attack mode.

This is freedom of speech and you we're wrong for taking the picture down it was neither harmless or offensive. It was a joke and directed towards the condescending/snarky comment I received RedCatWaves.

Attention to all hyper sensitive anal retentive's that have issues with the picture, Please do yourself a favor "lighten up" and get a sense of humor.

Originally Posted by 3cCurly
I wouldn't consider making fun of people with serious disabilities to a harmless joke. There are children who know better for crying out loud! Grow up and get a freaking heart!
get a hobby

Last edited by 3cCurly; 01-30-2009 at 01:51 PM.
get a hobby
Originally Posted by 3cCurly
I think you should give it up. You keep digging a bigger hole for yourself.
get a hobby
Originally Posted by 3cCurly
Why did you change it from your FIRST comment that you wrote that have that whole "ignorant is bliss" reference?
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get a hobby
Originally Posted by 3cCurly
Why did you change it from your FIRST comment that you wrote that have that whole "ignorant is bliss" reference?
Originally Posted by Nappy_curly_crown
hehe! My little fingers were typing as fast as they could, I guess hers were 1 minute faster. She submitted before I could capture her unedited quote.

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