Scott Brown wins in MA

I'll answer your question if you answer mine.
The first lesson of economics is scarcity: There is never enough of anything to satisfy all those who want it. The first lesson of politics is to disregard the first lesson of economics - Thomas Sowell
Here are some wonderful comments from your centerfold:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zAjCaxN-_s8
A coward is incapable of exhibiting love; it is the prerogative of the brave.

-Mohandas Gandhi

Last edited by BB; 01-22-2010 at 06:36 AM.
There aren't very many intelligent Conservatives around. There certainly aren't any intelligent ones on radio or TV.

Anybody who can be apart of a party that promotes Limbaugh, Palin, Beck, Steele, Cheny, Bush, Bachmann, Coulter, Roberson etc... can't be too bright.
Originally Posted by Cali Chik
This is very unfair. The fringe gets all the press b/c they make good soundbites.

I really enjoy reading George Will and Charles Krauthammer. I don't always agree with them but they make me think.
A coward is incapable of exhibiting love; it is the prerogative of the brave.

-Mohandas Gandhi
In a "true democracy" how are the rights of those in the political minority protected from what can be capricious views of a majority?
Originally Posted by Scarlet
Fine, then. In a true democracy, the rights of the political minority don't matter.

There are some ways to lessen this effect. Proportional elections instead of winner-take-all elections in the House. And obviously there should be civil rights protections put in place in order to ensure that certain groups aren't trampled.

By the way, measurements of political freedom have found that unicameral legislatures allow for just as much political freedom as bicameral legislatures do: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom...World_)(report (see US vs. other industrialized nations).

...

But okay, okay, abolishing the Senate would obviously never happen. I was being facetious. But seriously, you don't even think it should be changed? Just a little bit? Forty-one senators from our 21 smallest states—just over 10 percent of our population—can block bills using the filibuster. About 70 percent of major bills currently face a filibuster. I mean, I understand minority protections, but it seems like they're making out like bandits, here! And in the meantime, neither party can effectively govern.

How can one look at the Senate as it operates now and even suggest that it protects minority political rights? Ha! What minorities are we looking to protect, here, anyway? The insurance and pharmaceutical industries? They seem really well protected, considering they're able to override the American public that VOTED for health care reform with a public option! Defense contractors who don't care about the gendered violence that occurs against their own employees overseas? Yeah, they seem pretty well protected, too. These minorities have basically rendered the American people impotent.

And then we have real minorities who DO need protections; if they aren't degraded, they are ignored. This is why gays still aren't allowed to marry, and why abortion rights are being threatened in friggin' 2009. Jesus.

We all know what kind of people wrote the American constitution. Rich, white, slave-owning men. Based on our founders' demographics, it's obvious that some minorities deserve more protection than other minorities.
CG since 07/26/09

Last edited by mandatoryfun; 01-22-2010 at 07:04 AM.
btw, Mandatoryfun: I think I love you!

Can I be your groupie?

(ok, that was a little creepy.... backing off now....)
endorsement[/url] is a birther who compared Obama to Osama bin Laden. I won't entertain the other accusations against Brown just because they aren't substantial enough. But Hudak? Don't tell me Brown's vetting process is that effed up.

Sexist: Brown supports abortion, sure. But he has also pushed very strongly for waiting periods (including forcing a woman to view pictures of her own fetus) and parental consent laws. He believes that doctors and nurses should be able to opt out of providing emergency contraception to rape victims based on "a sincerely held religious belief." A "pro-choice" man who does everything in his power to stonewall women's access to emergency contraception and abortion, even in the case of rape? Sounds pretty sexist to me.

Homophobic: Brown opposes gay marriage, supports the Defense of Marriage Act (more commonly known as DOMA), supports Don't Ask, Don't Tell and opposes the Employment Non-Discrimination Act. Gay marriage is one thing, but suggesting that the LGBTQ community doesn't deserve protections against discrimination is absolutely homophobic.
Originally Posted by mandatoryfun;1233296
Well, I can't speak for BB...but I agree with her.

Racist: Scott Brown's first [URL="http://www.gloucestertimes.com/punews/local_story_020222627.html"
On the "racist" thing: So Brown is responsible for every opinion of each one of his supporters? I suppose we should hold all politicians to that standard then. Among Obama's supporters are Reverend Wright types, anti-Semites, and 9/11 truthers. So does that prove that Obama agrees with all of that looniness? Of course not.

Sexist: With all of the Catholics and Catholic Hospitals in Massachusetts, Ted Kennedy supported the conscious clauses as well. But I doubt if you would call him a sexist. The legislation Brown was sponsoring allowed for any other health care provider on duty being able to give the emergency contraception, and if one could not be found in that hospital, the rape victim would be transported, with no expense to her, to a hospital where someone could give her that. Later, Brown voted for the final bill, even though his amendment (again, Kennedy supported the same principle) failed. You are really, really stretching to try to convince yourself that he is a sexist. (Even if he were pro-life, that is not proof of being sexist by the way. People can disagree on this very difficult issue without the name calling.)

Homophobic: Marriage is between a man and a woman and has been for thousands of years. It provides a nurturing setting for raising children and adds stability to society. Again, people should be able to disagree about efforts to fundamentally change the definition of marriage without the namecalling and worse (Prop 8 supporters in CA being heckled and having food and garbage thrown at them, churches attacked, homes vandalized, businesses and individuals "blacklisted"....) Gay people have the same protections as everyone else since they are U.S. citizens. Granting them special protections above and beyond amount to violating "equal protection under the law." Example: if a gay person has a crime committed against them, and a straight person has the same crime committed against them, the perpetrator should recieve the same punishment -- NOT a harsher punishment. I do not believe that is 'homophobic.' I understand that you do. I believe that is applying Constitutional protections equally to all citizens.

This is the first Politics thread on nc.com that I have wandered into, and now I see why I (wisely) avoided it before. I now recognize that this kind of forum is a bit pointless. When Republican politicians and anyone who disagrees with the liberal curlies here is automatically called names (the liberal list of cliches: racist, bigot, homophobe, Nazi, knuckledragging moron....did I forget anything?) It's just silly and pointless.
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For me, desert climate+porous hair+CG=inconsistent results!
btw, Mandatoryfun: I think I love you!

Can I be your groupie?

(ok, that was a little creepy.... backing off now....)
Originally Posted by wavycurly40+
Thank you!...


Tendrilly:

Read what I wrote. Hudak isn't a just a supporteróBrown endorsed his campaign. Hudak is well-known for his racist beliefs. So...? What you wrote doesn't really make sense.

I think anyone who tries to exert control over a woman's body is a sexist...don't make assumptions about things I never explicitly stated. Believe me, a lot of Democrats have sold women up the river on this issue, especially recently...because reproductive rights are dispensable, apparently. It sickens me. But Republicans are typically worse in this regardóTed Kennedy never supported parental consent laws and waiting periods. There's more than one issue at stake here, yeah? (By the way, wow, thanks for cherry picking!) And it's obvious to me, based on how Brown voted on those peripheral issues (including stem cell research, partial birth abortion, etc.), that he is only pro-choice because it is politically expedient in MA.

As for your comments regarding the LGBTQ community...um, ENDA is about making sure that homosexuals aren't discriminated against by employers. LGBTQ individuals are far more likely to be discriminated against than your average Joe, which means they require extra protections in order to have "equal" protections under the law. How could you not see this?

If anyone is guilty of stereotyping and making generalizations it's you, accusing me of throwing out words like racist, sexist and homophobe indiscriminately when I've obviously thought about whether Brown really deserves those titles. Sorry we disagree on what racists, sexists and homophobes are, but I'd love to hear your definitions. Do you agree with your Republican ilk that President Obama is a racist, for example?
CG since 07/26/09
Brown is pro-choice and supports Roe v wade.
I don't know if he "supports" it. I've heard him say it's the law of the land, but that's about as far as I've heard him go


Obamacare is not a blueprint for socialism. You're thinking of the New Testament. ~~ John Fugelsang




Tendrilly:

Read what I wrote. Hudak isn't a just a supporteróBrown endorsed his campaign. Hudak is well-known for his racist beliefs. So...? What you wrote doesn't really make sense.

I think anyone who tries to exert control over a woman's body is a sexist...don't make assumptions about things I never explicitly stated. Believe me, a lot of Democrats have sold women up the river on this issue, especially recently...because reproductive rights are dispensable, apparently. It sickens me. But Republicans are typically worse in this regardóTed Kennedy never supported parental consent laws and waiting periods. There's more than one issue at stake here, yeah? (By the way, wow, thanks for cherry picking!) And it's obvious to me, based on how Brown voted on those peripheral issues (including stem cell research, partial birth abortion, etc.), that he is only pro-choice because it is politically expedient in MA.

As for your comments regarding the LGBTQ community...um, ENDA is about making sure that homosexuals aren't discriminated against by employers. LGBTQ individuals are far more likely to be discriminated against than your average Joe, which means they require extra protections in order to have "equal" protections under the law. How could you not see this?

If anyone is guilty of stereotyping and making generalizations it's you, accusing me of throwing out words like racist, sexist and homophobe indiscriminately when I've obviously thought about whether Brown really deserves those titles. Sorry we disagree on what racists, sexists and homophobes are, but I'd love to hear your definitions. Do you agree with your Republican ilk that President Obama is a racist, for example?
Originally Posted by mandatoryfun
Hi Mandatoryfun, wow -- I am sorry that you feel the need to use such a combative tone in your posts. I did not intend anything I said to be a personal attack. I apologize that I didn't specify that I was talking about the whole thread, and political dialogue in the U.S. in general, when I said that conservatives tend to be called racists, bigots, knuckledraggers, etc. I did not mean that towards you specifically.

So, about the Hudak issue, don't you think that if there were anything substantive there, that MA Dems, the Coakley campaign, and the Boston Globe would have made that a central issue? That they would have pounded Brown with it? I can only conclude that this is a case where there's no *there* there, as they say. Believe me, if someone can be proven a racist, their political career is over -- as it should be.

About abortion -- obviously, you will never convince me and I will never convince you. Using your definition of 'sexist' would make millions of women sexists, too, which seems pretty silly. I wasn't 'cherry picking' when I told of how Ted Kennedy supported conscience clauses. That was simply the issue in Brown's amendment. Let me add this: Whether we like it or not, we women were given the ovaries, the uterus, and the breasts, and we get to have the babies if we are engaging in sexual intercourse without effective birth control. Does it seem unfair at times? Sure. But motherhood is also the most rewarding part of many women's lives, so it's a two-sided coin.

But anyway... Abortion has hurt a lot of women since they carry that pain and regret with them for the rest of their lives. I have heard the stories.

Another tragic and unfortunate thing about abortion is that a large number, maybe even the majority, of babies who are aborted are black babies. (I can't remember the stats -- they are pretty shocking.) Some of the early supporters of abortion were eugenicists -- think Margaret Sanger who started the "Negro Project" in 1939 which was designed to cut down on the numbers of black children being born -- since she believed "that portion of the population (is) the least intelligent and fit." That is clearly racist. She is a hero on the left, by the way, the founder of the organization that later became Planned Parenthood.

Parental consent laws help protect young girls whose unsavory boyfriends (some of which are 18 and over, therefore are rapists) pressure the girls into abortions. In the horrific case of a father raping his daughter and impregnating her, my understanding is that there is an exemption for that. As there should be, obviously.

Waiting periods: For such a huge decision that the woman will have to live with for years, it only makes sense not to have 'drive-thru' abortions, in my opinion.

About discrimination, I don't believe that gay people should be discriminated against in the workplace any more than you do. The difference we have is: how to address problems legally when they occur?

No, I do not believe that Obama is a racist. I do hope that he will do more, though, to use his example of being married to Michelle, and being a father to his daughters, to help the black community. What a powerful example he is of that! And I'd like to see him use his connection with the black community to be a powerful force for good in encouraging marriage, fathers taking responsibility, and stable family units.

Again, you and I are both informed citizens and we just disagree -- it's not that I don't understand something. Being able to disagree is one of the great things about America. This will be my last post in this thread since it's gotta end at some point!
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For me, desert climate+porous hair+CG=inconsistent results!
Sexist: With all of the Catholics and Catholic Hospitals in Massachusetts, Ted Kennedy supported the conscious clauses as well. But I doubt if you would call him a sexist. The legislation Brown was sponsoring allowed for any other health care provider on duty being able to give the emergency contraception, and if one could not be found in that hospital, the rape victim would be transported, with no expense to her, to a hospital where someone could give her that. Later, Brown voted for the final bill, even though his amendment (again, Kennedy supported the same principle) failed.
Originally Posted by tendrilly

Regardless of those provisions, I think if a professional is going to have a serious moral or religious issue with doing part of their job, they need to find a new career. I don't think it's right to allow a doctor/nurse/pharmacist to deny legal medical services based on their private beliefs.

And as an extension from that, religion has no place in deciding legislation of same-sex marriage in a country that boasts freedom of religion. Churches can refuse to marry certain people, but that's all the power they should have. Christians are forcing everyone, regardless of faith, to abide by their rules and that's wrong. I suspect Christians wouldn't like having another religion's practices forced on them.

It's funny how some (socially conservative) Republicans are so concerned with having small government, yet they actually want the government to poke its nose into people's bedrooms and women's uteri. Totally baffling to me.

Anyway, there have been a ton of threads on those subjects and I don't expect to change anyone's mind, so that's that.

I agree with BB's assessment that if it had been a woman candidate who posed for Playboy or Maxim or whatever, people would have been shrieking about it. That's true of either political party. It's similar to how people judged Sarah Palin for running for office when she has four children, including a special needs baby. Nobody throws a fit when a man with kids runs for office; in fact, they look favorably upon him as a "family man." I think BB's point was not so much a dig at conservatives as it was the plain truth about how sexist our entire society is.

And I heart MandatoryFun, too!
http://unpavedpath.blogspot.com/

Last edited by utopiastars; 01-22-2010 at 08:32 PM.
I agree with BB's assessment that if it had been a woman candidate who posed for Playboy or Maxim or whatever, people would have been shrieking about it. That's true of either political party. It's similar to how people judged Sarah Palin for running for office when she has four children, including a special needs baby. Nobody throws a fit when a man with kids runs for office; in fact, they look favorably upon him as a "family man." I think BB's point was not so much a dig at conservatives as it was the plain truth about how sexist our entire society is.
Yes thank you! Clinton had nominated Kimba Woods for attorney general and there was an uproar b/c she trained for five days as a Playboy bunny. And Bunnies wear more clothing than Brown had on in his photo shoot. What was the difference? I'm sure a lot of the woman who are swooning over Brown's photo spread would be appalled if photos surfaced of a topless female politician. And don't even try to tell me Brown's pictures weren't sexual.

Re: Brown's racism. I posted upthread a link to Brown questioning whether Obama was born in wedlock. I'm not suprised it didn't get much mention. It would have if he were a Democrat because there are no liberal equivalents to Limbough, Hanity, Beck etc. They are the people who run with stories like this, then FOX makes it into real news, and we are off! Keith Olbermann and Rachel Madow just don't have the audience these guys do (I confess I don't watch them much either).
A coward is incapable of exhibiting love; it is the prerogative of the brave.

-Mohandas Gandhi

Last edited by BB; 01-23-2010 at 08:42 AM.
it would be ironic and sad that healthcare a cause Kennedy championed might fail because of his missing vote.
Trenell,

I know the definition of racist. You have made it a point to repeatedly call me one, so I'm rather curious as to what your definition is.

Refusing to answer is a cop-out. Pure and simple.

I think Brown will do a good job. He comes across as a thoughtful legislator and willing to listen to his constituents. Isn't that what we want? Legislators who will think about what they are doing (and read the damned bills). They need to be willing to LISTEN to what is being said by their constituents. We're the ones who put them into office and they vote their own opinions and feelings. (yes, I heard those VERY words out of my two Senators...and I called their office & told them that they were not there to vote the 'party line', or their own feelings/opinions. They were there to represent--spelled out the word & defined it---the people who voted them into office & if they liked the jobs and perks, they needed to start listening.)

I think we as a people have been complacent too long. It is someone else' problem or doesn't affect us. Now things have happened so very fast that are to the detriment of the citizenry and the nation, we're angry and standing up for ourselves.

And, totally Off Topic, that little cutie in the ad for the satin-lined winter hats on the left side bar is quite possibly one of the cutest little girls EVER! That look in her eyes is adorable.

Okay, back to topic.
My son wears combat boots (and a parachute).
The older I get, the less patience I have with cleverness. Thomas Sowell.
Resolve to perform what you ought. Perform without fail what you resolve. Benjamin Franklin.
Don't go around saying the world owes you a living. The world owes you nothing. It was here first. Mark Twain.



Trenell,

I know the definition of racist. You have made it a point to repeatedly call me one, so I'm rather curious as to what your definition is.

Refusing to answer is a cop-out. Pure and simple.
.
Originally Posted by susancnw
As if I am the only one to suggest that of you. But you are free to your opinion.


Blog
I've been thinking. It may not be fair to label you as a flat out racist. I don't know you. I can only base my opinion on things you have written and your reactions when called out on those statements.


Blog
I've been thinking. It may not be fair to label you as a flat out racist. I don't know you. I can only base my opinion on things you have written and your reactions when called out on those statements.
Originally Posted by Trenell
You aren't being unfair. She's a racist. She probably can't help it.
There aren't very many intelligent Conservatives around. There certainly aren't any intelligent ones on radio or TV.

Anybody who can be apart of a party that promotes Limbaugh, Palin, Beck, Steele, Cheny, Bush, Bachmann, Coulter, Roberson etc... can't be too bright.
Originally Posted by Cali Chik
This is very unfair. The fringe gets all the press b/c they make good soundbites.

I really enjoy reading George Will and Charles Krauthammer. I don't always agree with them but they make me think.
Originally Posted by BB
I wasn't just talking about the ones on TV. I'm saying there aren't many around. There may be very few. But its hard for me to see how anybody who isn't super rich and benefiting from republican ideals can be a conservative.

I don't think the Dems are perfect or even as liberal as they seem. But damn.... I can at least see some efforts to help the underserved.
There aren't very many intelligent Conservatives around. There certainly aren't any intelligent ones on radio or TV.

Anybody who can be apart of a party that promotes Limbaugh, Palin, Beck, Steele, Cheny, Bush, Bachmann, Coulter, Roberson etc... can't be too bright.
Originally Posted by Cali Chik
This is very unfair. The fringe gets all the press b/c they make good soundbites.

I really enjoy reading George Will and Charles Krauthammer. I don't always agree with them but they make me think.
Originally Posted by BB
I wasn't just talking about the ones on TV. I'm saying there aren't many around. There may be very few. But its hard for me to see how anybody who isn't super rich and benefiting from republican ideals can be a conservative.

I don't think the Dems are perfect or even as liberal as they seem. But damn.... I can at least see some efforts to help the underserved.
Originally Posted by Cali Chik
Well, I know a lot of struggling Republicans and a lot of super wealthy people are Democrats. Some of the richest Senators are Dems.

It used to be back in the day you were a Democrat if you believed we were all responsible for the welfare of each other and our counry and therefore you didn't mind paying taxes to make sure everything was taken care of (large government). You were a Republican if you believed individuals should decided where there money went and in the end they would do the right thing (small government).

That is hardly true anymore. Libertarians are more like the old school Republicans these days. People are more driven by the social platforms of these parties - you can thank Ronald Reagan for that.

IMHO, the Republican anger stems from a fear of certain privledged groups - white, Christian males and the people who love them - of losing their power. By supporting laws that keep people down and in their place, you prevent them from rising higher and knocking you off your perch. Same goes for denying people a living wage or healthcare. The pro-life and anti-gay marriage movements - they are all about control. Same goes for denying people a living wage or healthcare. If you are too busy surviving, you can't focus on anything else. Who do you think has a harder job - a banker or someone working on the floor of a slaughterhouse? Hard work doesn't always equal high pay and we need people to do these blue color jobs. Unless you want to kill your own food and sweep the streets yourself.

I'm sure a lot of the anger at Obama is that he, an African-American male, forgot his place.
A coward is incapable of exhibiting love; it is the prerogative of the brave.

-Mohandas Gandhi

Last edited by BB; 01-24-2010 at 10:22 AM.
Trenell, thanks for that much. In my view, a racist is someone who considers ANY race other than their own as lesser, or 'not worthy'. Absurd thinking by ANY standards. I think everyone should be responsible for themselves and their families. If you need some help getting to that point, it should be limited. NOT a never-ending handout. My family has used food stamps at times (when we were working), Medicaid, etc.

I don't call names as I resent being called a racist (add being a blonde, 6th generation Texan on top of it & you can imagine what I've dealt with in business over the years).

I tend to think that NOT caring about others and their welfare tends to be inhuman. (check out dictators for instance). Usually don't talk about it, but I cannot count the times that we've had friends of my kids, or friends of their friends of their friends under our roof because their parents kicked them out for some silly reason. Our rules have been that they respect the rules of our home including no smoking, underage drinking, NO drugs and pick up after yourself. We've fed more of them than I can count either. We've always done this & the kids know we have an open door and heart always. I have found out that this is not true in most of their homes and honestly, many of their parents will march in protests for gay rights, illegal immigration, or any other social agenda that comes down the pike, but they kick their own kids out? I've been blasted by the parents of one kid in particular that we took in. His parents told him he could leave college when he was pretty much assaulted by a gay roommate. When he did leave, they wouldn't let him come home. He stayed with us for 6 months & his mom chewed me out. This was not the first time.

BB...we're not super rich. Hell, we're not even 'average'. We are small business owners who have refused to take on any debt...we have no loans, all the equipment is bought as we had the money. My husband is a custom cabinet maker. Our target clientele are those whose home value is $350K and over. Even they are not the super rich. (I'd LOVE to get in the door with them). But until the economy improves, they are not spending money.

Why are people commenting that some 'birthers' like Brown, but the fact that many (most) of the "truthers' are Dems is ignored? Many Dems were supported and endorsed by Truthers, but who seriously pays attention to them? We know they are more than a bit 'off', but anytime a nutjob supports a Republican, it is front page news, but if a nutjob endorses a Democrat, it's not newsworthy. Double standard much?

Now, to get back to the original idea....I was wondering why Brown's election (and for that matter, the election of 3 Republicans in states that went heavily for Obama in 200 is not a referendum of the administration over the last year.

Any discussions about race do NOT need to come into this...that can be another thread, but I won't start is as I have NO idea how to word it in such a way that won't piss someone off. And a discussion about mean spirited Republicans (AND Democrats) is another thread too. ('cause if you think that Pelosi and Reid are not mean-spirited, you are not paying attention!)

Can we get back to topic? And BB, I will repeat, I live in CO and have friends across the US of many hues and colors. I have yet to hear/see any of them complain about Obama due to his color---what we object to is his agenda and policies. It's pretty simple. If he was PURPLE I'd object.
My son wears combat boots (and a parachute).
The older I get, the less patience I have with cleverness. Thomas Sowell.
Resolve to perform what you ought. Perform without fail what you resolve. Benjamin Franklin.
Don't go around saying the world owes you a living. The world owes you nothing. It was here first. Mark Twain.



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