Scott Brown wins in MA

Of course I don't think everyonewho disagrees with Obama is racist. Hell, some people were pretty hysterical when Clinton was elected. But you can't deny the Birther movement is rooted in racism. Has any other candidate ever had his citizenship questioned? What more can the man do to prove he was born here? There are birth announcement clippings in his hometown paper for heaven's sake.
A coward is incapable of exhibiting love; it is the prerogative of the brave.

-Mohandas Gandhi
. Has any other candidate ever had his citizenship questioned?
Originally Posted by BB

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/11/us.../11mccain.html
The first lesson of economics is scarcity: There is never enough of anything to satisfy all those who want it. The first lesson of politics is to disregard the first lesson of economics - Thomas Sowell
There is one thing of which I am absolutely positive: it makes no difference at all who is in the Oval Office this term. After the previous eight years, everyone is more sensitive to what our President does and doesn't do.

Anyone who thinks the Republicans have the most mean-spirited people are being deliberately obtuse. There is plenty of **** flinging on both sides. If McCain won there would be just as many nasty Democrats as there are Republicans now, and just as many Republicans pissed at how he handled things.

We are currently at a point that there is just about nothing any current President could do to please the People.
"...just because you're paranoid doesn't mean that there isn't an invisible demon about to eat your face." ~Harry Dresden


This is very unfair. The fringe gets all the press b/c they make good soundbites.

I really enjoy reading George Will and Charles Krauthammer. I don't always agree with them but they make me think.
Originally Posted by BB
I wasn't just talking about the ones on TV. I'm saying there aren't many around. There may be very few. But its hard for me to see how anybody who isn't super rich and benefiting from republican ideals can be a conservative.

I don't think the Dems are perfect or even as liberal as they seem. But damn.... I can at least see some efforts to help the underserved.
Originally Posted by Cali Chik
Well, I know a lot of struggling Republicans and a lot of super wealthy people are Democrats. Some of the richest Senators are Dems.

It used to be back in the day you were a Democrat if you believed we were all responsible for the welfare of each other and our counry and therefore you didn't mind paying taxes to make sure everything was taken care of (large government). You were a Republican if you believed individuals should decided where there money went and in the end they would do the right thing (small government).

That is hardly true anymore. Libertarians are more like the old school Republicans these days. People are more driven by the social platforms of these parties - you can thank Ronald Reagan for that.

IMHO, the Republican anger stems from a fear of certain privledged groups - white, Christian males and the people who love them - of losing their power. By supporting laws that keep people down and in their place, you prevent them from rising higher and knocking you off your perch. Same goes for denying people a living wage or healthcare. The pro-life and anti-gay marriage movements - they are all about control. Same goes for denying people a living wage or healthcare. If you are too busy surviving, you can't focus on anything else. Who do you think has a harder job - a banker or someone working on the floor of a slaughterhouse? Hard work doesn't always equal high pay and we need people to do these blue color jobs. Unless you want to kill your own food and sweep the streets yourself.

I'm sure a lot of the anger at Obama is that he, an African-American male, forgot his place.
Originally Posted by BB
I know there are struggling republicans. Hell most of the red states are full of poor ppl that vote republican. I was saying that I don't see why they would be republican.
Of course I don't think everyonewho disagrees with Obama is racist. Hell, some people were pretty hysterical when Clinton was elected. But you can't deny the Birther movement is rooted in racism. Has any other candidate ever had his citizenship questioned? What more can the man do to prove he was born here? There are birth announcement clippings in his hometown paper for heaven's sake.
Originally Posted by BB
The birther movement was just full of dummies and a waste of time.
I know there are struggling republicans. Hell most of the red states are full of poor ppl that vote republican. I was saying that I don't see why they would be republican.
Imagine you have little in this world but your faith and the belief that things will be better after you die and go to heaven. Now imagine your priest/minister, etc. tells you that you will go to hell if you support a pro-choice candidate ...

Sounds like another extremist group, huh?
A coward is incapable of exhibiting love; it is the prerogative of the brave.

-Mohandas Gandhi

Last edited by BB; 01-24-2010 at 02:21 PM.
I know there are struggling republicans. Hell most of the red states are full of poor ppl that vote republican. I was saying that I don't see why they would be republican.
Imagine you have little in this world but your faith and the belief that things will be better after you die and go to heaven. Now imagine your priest/minister, etc. tells you that you will go to hell if you support a pro-choice candidate ...

Sounds like another exremist group, huh?
Originally Posted by BB
Ahh good point. I'm from L.A. so some of that is hard to understand. Like the fact that they have commericals for Jesus in some parts of the midwest and the south.
. Has any other candidate ever had his citizenship questioned?
Originally Posted by BB

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/11/us.../11mccain.html
Originally Posted by Scarlet
McCain WAS born in Panama. People are saying Obama wasn't born in Hawaii and this argument is still going on to this day even after proof was shown. The McCain issue was settled and dropped. How can this be the same thing?
A coward is incapable of exhibiting love; it is the prerogative of the brave.

-Mohandas Gandhi
I know McCain was born in Panama (to two U.S. citizens). The issue of citizenship status in instances like this was settled decades ago. You said no other candidates citizenship has ever been questioned. Well, yes it has.
The first lesson of economics is scarcity: There is never enough of anything to satisfy all those who want it. The first lesson of politics is to disregard the first lesson of economics - Thomas Sowell
Ok let me clarify: has a movement formed around any other candidate's citizenship?
A coward is incapable of exhibiting love; it is the prerogative of the brave.

-Mohandas Gandhi

I don't like being penalized because I am married. I don't like the government taking a huge chunk out of my paycheck every month, or having to pay large amounts of money to the government so they can continue to expand.

Under the Constitution, the government is to provide for national security (and they are doing a lousy job with 2 terrorist attacks since last spring, 3 if you count the Arkansas military recruiter murder/shooting.) EVERYTHING else falls to the state government for their decision.

The income tax, Roe v Wade & welfare are unconstitutional when it comes down to it. None were provided for in the Constitution. They are all 3 inventions of the politicians.

Susan
Originally Posted by susancnw
Were you anti welfare before or after you denied support in Texas because you were white?
Of course I don't think everyonewho disagrees with Obama is racist. Hell, some people were pretty hysterical when Clinton was elected. But you can't deny the Birther movement is rooted in racism. Has any other candidate ever had his citizenship questioned? What more can the man do to prove he was born here? There are birth announcement clippings in his hometown paper for heaven's sake.
Originally Posted by BB
The birther movement was just full of dummies and a waste of time.
Originally Posted by Cali Chik
And is the truther movement. But you don't see that particular group being brought up when they endorse a candidate.

Again, are the most recent elections of Republicans in heavily Democratic states a sign that the Independents have lost faith in the administration? Is it a referendum on the administration?

Looks to me like it is.
My son wears combat boots (and a parachute).
The older I get, the less patience I have with cleverness. Thomas Sowell.
Resolve to perform what you ought. Perform without fail what you resolve. Benjamin Franklin.
Don't go around saying the world owes you a living. The world owes you nothing. It was here first. Mark Twain.




I don't like being penalized because I am married. I don't like the government taking a huge chunk out of my paycheck every month, or having to pay large amounts of money to the government so they can continue to expand.

Under the Constitution, the government is to provide for national security (and they are doing a lousy job with 2 terrorist attacks since last spring, 3 if you count the Arkansas military recruiter murder/shooting.) EVERYTHING else falls to the state government for their decision.

The income tax, Roe v Wade & welfare are unconstitutional when it comes down to it. None were provided for in the Constitution. They are all 3 inventions of the politicians.

Susan
Originally Posted by susancnw
Were you anti welfare before or after you denied support in Texas because you were white?
Originally Posted by Myradella3
Before. We needed help for a short period of time due to having a child with a serious (potentially fatal) heart defect. I resented being told ways that I could 'game the system'. i was told that I'd be better off if my husband and I divorced and then applied. We used it for 6 months and that was it. Same thing later with the food stamps. I had a stroke and couldn't work (again, no insurance)...that was fun. Frankly, the entire situation both times was humiliating and I will do anything to keep from having to do it again.

My point was that a safety net exists. It should NOT be a generational thing...2, 3, 4, 5 generations on welfare? The welfare reform under Clinton was a very good idea.

Back to original question. Is the election in MA and the two Republicans also elected in recent elections a referendum on the Obama administration as the election of Obama was claimed to be a referendum on the Republicans?
My son wears combat boots (and a parachute).
The older I get, the less patience I have with cleverness. Thomas Sowell.
Resolve to perform what you ought. Perform without fail what you resolve. Benjamin Franklin.
Don't go around saying the world owes you a living. The world owes you nothing. It was here first. Mark Twain.



Of course I don't think everyonewho disagrees with Obama is racist. Hell, some people were pretty hysterical when Clinton was elected. But you can't deny the Birther movement is rooted in racism. Has any other candidate ever had his citizenship questioned? What more can the man do to prove he was born here? There are birth announcement clippings in his hometown paper for heaven's sake.
Originally Posted by BB
The birther movement was just full of dummies and a waste of time.
Originally Posted by Cali Chik
And is the truther movement. But you don't see that particular group being brought up when they endorse a candidate.

Again, are the most recent elections of Republicans in heavily Democratic states a sign that the Independents have lost faith in the administration? Is it a referendum on the administration?

Looks to me like it is.
Originally Posted by susancnw
The truther movement is insane, but not based in racism, which makes it slightly less odious to most people.

Also, gosh, I guess I'll repeat myself again: Scott Brown endorsed the birther, not the other way around. It's very, very different.
CG since 07/26/09
The birther movement was just full of dummies and a waste of time.
Originally Posted by Cali Chik
And is the truther movement. But you don't see that particular group being brought up when they endorse a candidate.

Again, are the most recent elections of Republicans in heavily Democratic states a sign that the Independents have lost faith in the administration? Is it a referendum on the administration?

Looks to me like it is.
Originally Posted by susancnw
The truther movement is insane, but not based in racism, which makes it slightly less odious to most people.

Also, gosh, I guess I'll repeat myself again: Scott Brown endorsed the birther, not the other way around. It's very, very different.
Originally Posted by mandatoryfun
I get the impression that it is based on a question of citizenship, when the same question was asked of McCain, who promptly answered the question by producing his birth cert. Obama has never produced a single piece of documentation from the BC to college records or transcripts or anything, but has spend tens of thousands of dollars to keep it all quiet. Just sorta weird to me. I'm not particularly proud of all my college transcripts, but I can't think of a reason not to produce them.

Again, are the most recent elections of Republicans in heavily Democratic states a sign that the Independents have lost faith in the administration? Is it a referendum on the administration?

And to elucidate a little further. Using the government safety net was also very eye-opening. The ease of receiving aid makes it very seductive and enticing also. Fill out a few forms, sometimes you have to produce some documentation and that's it. And that is only the first time. Rest of the time they usually just send a piece of paper asking you of any changes. Few minutes of your time once or twice a year and that's it. And if you choose not to report any under the table or cash income that you get, you can live pretty well. I'm not saying that everyone does it as I know they don't. But there is a pretty large percentage that do. (not a majority, but a respectable percentage). There are no checks for multiple claims, etc. When they had one of my daughters covered under two policies, it literally took me over a year to straighten it out and explain to them that she was covered under one, didn't need the other so it allowed someone else to be covered. I was trying to straighten it out when she no longer used it.

But generation after generation after generation getting welfare and the never ending dependence on the government for your existence is wrong. It's even worse in other countries, and we do not want that entitlement mentality here. It reduces us as a nation, reduces production, innovation and entrepreneurship, which are things that have made us a great nation and a terrific place to live. A place that people are willing to die to get in to.

Back to topic...actually, just go to the other thread...I swear sometimes we are the most ADHD group I've ever seen....then I look at discussions in my own family and friends and realize, no, we're not! ;D
My son wears combat boots (and a parachute).
The older I get, the less patience I have with cleverness. Thomas Sowell.
Resolve to perform what you ought. Perform without fail what you resolve. Benjamin Franklin.
Don't go around saying the world owes you a living. The world owes you nothing. It was here first. Mark Twain.



Hello!

I live in MA and I do believe that the Brown's election was a referendum on Obama's big government, big spending, bad idea - ObamaCare. This historically liberal state with 51% independents definitely wanted to change in the direction of our country.

Several events came together to allow Brown to win:
1) Give away to Unions (no tax on Union "cadillac" insurance plans), Cornhusker kickback, LA Purchase
2) Coakley's Gaffes - Schilling Yankee??, Catholics shouldn't work in ER??
3) Coakley's lack of campaigning, she said we needed increased taxes, she supported ObamaCare.
4) Brown's common sense personality and CLEAR MESSAGE
5) Brown's connection with MA
6) The negative ads run by Coakley (she got dirty, but Brown didn't)
7) Brown's persistence. He wanted the job and it was obvious. He knew he had to earn our votes.
7) Brown's clean campaign
41th vote against ObamaCare (THIS SHOULD BE
FIRST)
9) The "Kennedy Seat" and Brown's response.
10) Many in MA have NOT been represented by Kennedy or Kerry. They acted like they were ordained to be our Senators and have their own adgendas. Kennedy was quoted several years ago that he didn't represent republicans?

I have probably left out other key elements, but the election was exciting and the people in MA are happy to help change the direction of this great country.

Proud to be an American in this Great Democracy with well crafted constitution that allows for checks and balances. The USA is the best country in the WORLD.
Susan, Obama has released his birth certificate. You can find some high resolution photos of it here.

My dad is a birther and has consistently claimed that Obama hasn't released his birth certificate, but rather a "certificate of live birth." Whatever!

McCain presented his birth certificate and everyone just out and accepted that he was a citizen. But when Obama presents his birth certificate, everyone claims that it is a forgery and demands not only his "real" birth certificate, but also his school transcripts and other documents?

The racism of the birther movement is so obvious. Anyone who says it's really about citizenship is just trying to sweep their own prejudice under the rug. Or do birthers really just not understand how to Google search?
CG since 07/26/09
Hello!

I live in MA and I do believe that the Brown's election was a referendum on Obama's big government, big spending, bad idea - ObamaCare. This historically liberal state with 51% independents definitely wanted to change in the direction of our country.

Several events came together to allow Brown to win:
1) Give away to Unions (no tax on Union "cadillac" insurance plans), Cornhusker kickback, LA Purchase
2) Coakley's Gaffes - Schilling Yankee??, Catholics shouldn't work in ER??
3) Coakley's lack of campaigning, she said we needed increased taxes, she supported ObamaCare.
4) Brown's common sense personality and CLEAR MESSAGE
5) Brown's connection with MA
6) The negative ads run by Coakley (she got dirty, but Brown didn't)
7) Brown's persistence. He wanted the job and it was obvious. He knew he had to earn our votes.
7) Brown's clean campaign
41th vote against ObamaCare (THIS SHOULD BE
FIRST)
9) The "Kennedy Seat" and Brown's response.
10) Many in MA have NOT been represented by Kennedy or Kerry. They acted like they were ordained to be our Senators and have their own adgendas. Kennedy was quoted several years ago that he didn't represent republicans?

I have probably left out other key elements, but the election was exciting and the people in MA are happy to help change the direction of this great country.

Proud to be an American in this Great Democracy with well crafted constitution that allows for checks and balances. The USA is the best country in the WORLD.
Originally Posted by zumbagirl
I only saw one point on your list that actually related to Obama. Well, one and a half if you count the last half of #3.

I agree on all of your other points, however.
Minneapolis, MN
Of course I don't think everyonewho disagrees with Obama is racist. Hell, some people were pretty hysterical when Clinton was elected. But you can't deny the Birther movement is rooted in racism. Has any other candidate ever had his citizenship questioned? What more can the man do to prove he was born here? There are birth announcement clippings in his hometown paper for heaven's sake.
Originally Posted by BB
The birther movement was just full of dummies and a waste of time.
Originally Posted by Cali Chik
And is the truther movement. But you don't see that particular group being brought up when they endorse a candidate.

Again, are the most recent elections of Republicans in heavily Democratic states a sign that the Independents have lost faith in the administration? Is it a referendum on the administration?

Looks to me like it is.
Originally Posted by susancnw
LOL wtf does any of that have to do with the fact that the "birther" movement was stupid and a waste of time?

Having suspicions about 9/11 is one thing... claiming that your president who has already shown a birth certificate isn't an american citizen for no f*cking reason is just beyond ignorant.

I wish there were more intelligent conservatives portrayed in the media. Even so called conservative stations like Fox show the dumbest idiots they can find to comment on their factless news.
Susan, Obama has released his birth certificate. You can find some high resolution photos of it here.

My dad is a birther and has consistently claimed that Obama hasn't released his birth certificate, but rather a "certificate of live birth." Whatever!

McCain presented his birth certificate and everyone just out and accepted that he was a citizen. But when Obama presents his birth certificate, everyone claims that it is a forgery and demands not only his "real" birth certificate, but also his school transcripts and other documents?

The racism of the birther movement is so obvious. Anyone who says it's really about citizenship is just trying to sweep their own prejudice under the rug. Or do birthers really just not understand how to Google search?
Originally Posted by mandatoryfun
I've seen the hi res one. McCain presented his certificate, both his parents were over 21 and US citizens. Obama's mom was under 21 and at the time, couldn't confer her citizenship status to him (from what I understand). A certificate of live birth is different from an actual birth certificate. I had to request one from the state when our youngest son died at 27 hours old. They didn't hesitate to send me that damned death certificate, but I had to request a birth certificate.

The reason the issue was raised at all was apparently there were questions. And again, candidates routinely release college records, etc. Until Obama. He hasn't done so and has spent thousands of dollars on lawyers to avoid doing so. Just strikes me as weird...I'm not particularly proud of some of my college grades, but I'm not going to ever avoid showing them to someone (well, except my kids maybe ;D)

Cali, you consistently call conservatives idiots, racists, etc. Every dropped in at Democratic Underground?
My son wears combat boots (and a parachute).
The older I get, the less patience I have with cleverness. Thomas Sowell.
Resolve to perform what you ought. Perform without fail what you resolve. Benjamin Franklin.
Don't go around saying the world owes you a living. The world owes you nothing. It was here first. Mark Twain.



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