Conservatives: give me something to chew on.

Dr. Jones,

How do you fix the culture crisis?

... but give me the environment where I can do so!
Originally Posted by susancnw
What does that environment look like?
Here's a link to an article I generally agree with.

http://townhall.com/columnists/JohnH...a_conservative

Hope this helps.
Originally Posted by Kitschy
Wow... that was a good read. Surely explained why conservatives are so ignorant, racist, and sexist. Plain fact is, they are delusional.
Quote:
Originally Posted by subbrock View Post
- don't let everybody elses long straight weave bum you out. don't let other people's big/long natural hair bum you out either. embrace what you have and rock it with confidence, because that's the only way you'll be happy. and whether you realize it or not you are somebody's influence. show them what it truly means to be confident.
www.lifestarbeauty.com
Hate me? Love me? then Follow me! www.twitter.com/vidastarr


Like most conservatives, it seems that this guy exalts the Constitution, but doesn't really get into the nitty-gritty of what that means. I found his views overly simplistic and at times contradictory. But, I guess a lot of that has to do with the structure of the article.
Originally Posted by mandatoryfun
Even 200 years ago, before the dawn of post-modern criticism and semiotics, our Supreme Court recognized that the Constitution doesn't have meaning until it's given meaning through interpretation.
Originally Posted by Eilonwy
Exactly what I meant. But most conservatives seem to be of the mind that the Constitution can only be interpreted one way...liberals disregard the Constitution, violate it, would tear it to shreds if they were able to, whereas conservatives always interpret it correctly and try to protect it because they're patriots. They just don't get that it's BS no matter how you slice it.
CG since 07/26/09
Like most conservatives, it seems that this guy exalts the Constitution, but doesn't really get into the nitty-gritty of what that means. I found his views overly simplistic and at times contradictory. But, I guess a lot of that has to do with the structure of the article.
Originally Posted by mandatoryfun
Even 200 years ago, before the dawn of post-modern criticism and semiotics, our Supreme Court recognized that the Constitution doesn't have meaning until it's given meaning through interpretation.
Originally Posted by Eilonwy
Exactly what I meant. But most conservatives seem to be of the mind that the Constitution can only be interpreted one way...liberals disregard the Constitution, violate it, would tear it to shreds if they were able to, whereas conservatives always interpret it correctly and try to protect it because they're patriots. They just don't get that it's BS no matter how you slice it.
Originally Posted by mandatoryfun
The Constitution isn't and shouldn't be the end all and be all of America. It to be amended 27 times and still needs more. If we kept the constitution in it's original state, women couldn't vote and slavery would be legal.
Quote:
Originally Posted by subbrock View Post
- don't let everybody elses long straight weave bum you out. don't let other people's big/long natural hair bum you out either. embrace what you have and rock it with confidence, because that's the only way you'll be happy. and whether you realize it or not you are somebody's influence. show them what it truly means to be confident.
www.lifestarbeauty.com
Hate me? Love me? then Follow me! www.twitter.com/vidastarr


The Constitution isn't and shouldn't be the end all and be all of America. It to be amended 27 times and still needs more. If we kept the constitution in it's original state, women couldn't vote and slavery would be legal.
Originally Posted by Cali Chik
The reverence in which our Constitution is held helps keep our country stable. Other countries do just fine without formal constitutions, but I don't think the US could handle that, given the strong tradition of individualism. The Constitution serves as an ideal that unites us.

Plus, as a common law system, we don't need to directly amend the constitution in order to change it. Most of our constitutional law comes from judicial interpretation, precedents and overrule.
That article is full of stereotypes and talking points. There isn't much of substance.

For example, I don't think that vegetarianism or veganism is necessarily a part of the liberal or progressive ideology. Most of the people who do hold those values tend to be liberal, but it's not the same thing as saying it's a liberal value.
Originally Posted by mandatoryfun
This is a little late, but you're right. It's a bunch of specifically Republican talking points, many of which don't have anything much to do with conservatism. For example, do conservatives in the UK think that America is the best country? Do French conservatives, or Nigerian, or Laotian? It's extremely myopic.
Okay, this is way late, but why did the letter from that doctor matter? Why bother with the Snopes confirmation? There are a hell of a lot of doctors out there, and they have a variety of different political opinions. And a lot of doctors just like the prestige and the pay, and don't give a damn about their patients.

So why does it matter that that letter came from a doctor? I care about what doctors say when I'm trying to prevent illness or recover from illness or injury. What particular knowledge or authority do doctors have outside of the practice of medicine? They're not economists.

Last edited by Eilonwy; 02-22-2010 at 04:39 PM.
Dear Mr. President:
During my shift in the Emergency Room last night, I had the pleasure of evaluating a patient whose smile revealed an expensive shiny gold tooth, whose body was adorned with a wide assortment of elaborate and costly tattoos, who wore a very expensive brand of tennis shoes and who chatted on a new cellular telephone equipped with a popular R&B ringtone.
While glancing over her patient chart, I happened to notice that her payer status was listed as “Medicaid”! During my examination of her, the patient informed me that she smokes more than one costly pack of cigarettes every day and somehow still has money to buy pretzels and beer.
And, you and our Congress expect me to pay for this woman’s health care? I contend that our nation’s “health care crisis” is not the result of a shortage of quality hospitals, doctors or nurses. Rather, it is the result of a “crisis of culture”, a culture in which it is perfectly acceptable to spend money on luxuries and vices while refusing to take care of one’s self or, heaven forbid, purchase health insurance. It is a culture based in the irresponsible credo that “I can do whatever I want to because someone else will always take care of me”.
Once you fix this “culture crisis” that rewards irresponsibility and dependency, you’ll be amazed at how quickly our nation’s health care difficulties will disappear.
Respectfully,
STARNER JONES, MD


Snopes agrees this is authentic.
Originally Posted by Kitschy
Wow. This letter is very telling. Painting a lovely picture of what "culture" is causing the crisis. I think mentioning the R&B ring tone was a lovely touch. (can't you get ringtones for free)


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I find it suspicious that a doctor with "those views" even knows which R&B ring tones are "popular" in the first place. Or that he knows from R&B to begin with.
Dear Mr. President:
During my shift in the Emergency Room last night, I had the pleasure of evaluating a patient whose smile revealed an expensive shiny gold tooth, whose body was adorned with a wide assortment of elaborate and costly tattoos, who wore a very expensive brand of tennis shoes and who chatted on a new cellular telephone equipped with a popular R&B ringtone.
While glancing over her patient chart, I happened to notice that her payer status was listed as “Medicaid”! During my examination of her, the patient informed me that she smokes more than one costly pack of cigarettes every day and somehow still has money to buy pretzels and beer.
And, you and our Congress expect me to pay for this woman’s health care? I contend that our nation’s “health care crisis” is not the result of a shortage of quality hospitals, doctors or nurses. Rather, it is the result of a “crisis of culture”, a culture in which it is perfectly acceptable to spend money on luxuries and vices while refusing to take care of one’s self or, heaven forbid, purchase health insurance. It is a culture based in the irresponsible credo that “I can do whatever I want to because someone else will always take care of me”.
Once you fix this “culture crisis” that rewards irresponsibility and dependency, you’ll be amazed at how quickly our nation’s health care difficulties will disappear.
Respectfully,
STARNER JONES, MD


Snopes agrees this is authentic.
Originally Posted by Kitschy
Wow. This letter is very telling. Painting a lovely picture of what "culture" is causing the crisis. I think mentioning the R&B ring tone was a lovely touch. (can't you get ringtones for free)
Originally Posted by Trenell
Costly tats? Does this doctor not know that ppl on the block will do your tats for a very low cost in their garage?
I guess not.

Anyway, this doctor is ignorant. Why not tell the story of the patient who is a single parent who took the day off work (and pay) trying to get his/her kids seen by a doctor?

Or the story of my brother having an asthma attack and our medi-cal getting cut off and not being able to get my brother his medicine for his breathing machine?

Or the story of a recent college graduate that is unable to find a job or is in the probation stage of a job and doesn't qualify for medi-cal?

These are true and accurate stories. To make it out like the patient that doctor described is the majority is really ignorant.
Quote:
Originally Posted by subbrock View Post
- don't let everybody elses long straight weave bum you out. don't let other people's big/long natural hair bum you out either. embrace what you have and rock it with confidence, because that's the only way you'll be happy. and whether you realize it or not you are somebody's influence. show them what it truly means to be confident.
www.lifestarbeauty.com
Hate me? Love me? then Follow me! www.twitter.com/vidastarr


I don't understand why conservatives blame liberals, when much of the problems were due to conservatives engaging in what is stereotypically known as liberal spending but for conservative causes. Now that we have a liberal in the white house, now we have to have panic and fear about spending? Where was this panic and fear before?


It almost seems like conservatives say they are fiscally conservative but they are not.

Why weren't conservatives yelling at Bush? Why is this now becoming an issue? Now?
Originally Posted by Boomygrrl
Hi Boomygrrl, I'm a bit late into this discussion, but I only check out what's going on in the Politics forum once every week or two. I'm a proud conservative, at your service. Your first post poses a broad question, so it's a bit intimidating to try to tackle it as a whole. But let me start by answering the above quotes from a later post.

You ask a really good question. The thing is, Bush was NOT an across-the-board conservative. His big-spending was not conservative -- at all! No Child Left Behind was not conservative (The conservative position on education is the lessen federal involvement). The Medicare Drug entitlement program was not conservative. TARP was not conservative. There are other things, but this is all I can remember off the top of my head...

Conservatives DID complain about these things when they were happening, but it sounds like that activity didn't make it out of talk radio, Fox News and the conservative sites and blogs and into the broader media. So that would explain why conservatives being angry and frustrated at those policies back then is news to you.

There is a difference between being a Republican and being a conservative. Not all Republicans are conservatives. So someone like me cannot stand John McCain, for example. (We call these types of R's "RINOs" -- Republicans In Name Only.) So you may have indeed seen many Republicans in the House and Senate happily supporting these things in the Bush years, but that does not mean that all conservatives did.

I supported Bush for many reasons but fiscal policy was not particularly among them. He is socially conservative, as I am, and once we were hit with 9/11, he took the war on terror seriously and kept us safe. You may disagree with how he did it, but reasonable people can disagree. The fact is, when we had terrorists in custody, we could actually get actionable intelligence from them during the Bush years. The Bush era intelligence gathering has been proven to have stopped specific terrorist attacks. Now, we have a president with a very different approach and those who disagree with the Bush way are having their chance to prove that their way is more effective.

Kitschy posted a letter from a Doctor about the entitlement mentality...citing a patient who had expensive personal luxuries while expecting US taxpayers to pay for his ER visit. Of course any story could be cited making the opposite point, as some posters later did. The point is well taken: You can find any anecdote to 'prove' whatever point you want to make.

But I think Kitschy's broader point in posting that letter is to see how destructive the dependence and entitlement mentality is. We all want a safety net, but the milking the government for all you can and having sometimes generations of dependency is a different thing, and a big problem.

I have a relative who is a tax-preparer and she has been appalled as she has looked at people's finances. She tells me that the 'poor' that have come in to her office are actually doing better than the lower-middle class, where she falls. This is because they are being heavily subsidized by government programs. So they are on WIC and everything else they can get their hands on, but at the same time are buying a nice new house. It feels 'wrong' to her for that to be the case and tells me that it has reinforced her conservative beliefs.

Here is link to George Will's excellent speech to CPAC recently. He addresses this and how the Democrats have a "Dependency Agenda." How their policies are designed to increase dependency on the government. (Warning: you have to just put up with the annoying lady who is laughing at all of his jokes. There was a mike that was waaay to close to her.) I watched this yesterday and it can give you a good view into the conservative mindset, at least on the issues he addresses. It's a total of thirty minutes in three parts, but just put it on and listen while you're making dinner!

http://newsbusters.org/blogs/noel-sh...ar-speech-cpac

Also, if you'd like to check out a good conservative site or two, I'd recommend these columnists: Jonah Goldberg (syndicated columnist but you can also find his columns on www.nationalreview.com) Thomas Sowell, Marc Thiessen (columnist for the Washington Post -- highly recommend his piece entitled "A Middle Ground for Interrogations" -- I found it here: http://www.marcthiessen.com/articles/33). And of course, the essential Charles Krauthammer. There are lots of others, but that's a good start. Also, a favorite conservative blog of mine that always offers excellent political analysis is www.powerlineblog.com. Sometimes they talk about music, beauty pageants, and other things that I could do without, but their political stuff is top-notch. Again, these folks can give you an inside look into the conservative mindset.

Whoa, this got long... Hope this is helpful.
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Last edited by tendrilly; 02-23-2010 at 06:15 PM. Reason: adding Charles Krauthammer!
Very interesting in that I recently asked a liberal friend to explain why he was a liberal and consistently voted Democratic.

I am a conservative because I believe in:

Small Government
Free Market
Personal responsibility
Strong National Defense
Fiscal Responsibility (again SMALL Govt)
I do not think the Government is the answer to social problems. I do not look to the Government to solve my problems.
I do believe that we should help those that need help. Those that do not have sound minds or bodies. Unfortunately, we have created a culture of dependency. There is something wrong when 60% of population pays NO taxes. This is very wrong. I think we are a culture of excess. Our poor have systemic bad habits - indulge in poor diet, lifestyle and many have the expectation that the rest of us will pay for their poor choices. Again, I am not talking about the individuals in our society that truly need help. I am compassionate about helping them and do so through excessive taxes and charitable contributions. Anyone in this country can get an education. It is the path to economic wellbeing.

Personal Responsibility. If we all lived by this credo, then we would have a smaller government and a very strong economy.
Our poor have systemic bad habits - indulge in poor diet, lifestyle and many have the expectation that the rest of us will pay for their poor choices. Again, I am not talking about the individuals in our society that truly need help.
Originally Posted by zumbagirl
I agree that poverty is generally a moral failing. They just do not act as rationally as middle-class and wealthy people do.

By the way, people who have poor diets actually cost society less, economically, than do people with good diets. People with poor diets tend to die sooner, and the circumstances of their death transpire quickly. They die of heart attacks and the like, rather than experiencing the slow decline of cancer.

Last edited by Eilonwy; 02-23-2010 at 04:16 PM.
Personal Responsibility. If we all lived by this credo, then we would have a smaller government and a very strong economy.
Originally Posted by zumbagirl
I do believe that personal repsonsibility is important. But, really some people are born with a headstart. I was born into a midle class family. Both parents went to college. For me, going to college was no big deal. At all. It was grade 13. Because of the environment I grew up it in. Now would I have been able to get into college had my circumstances been different. Would I have had the mindset that college was even an option? Who knows.

I think a solution lies in education. Re-educating adults and a better school system for children.

It takes an extraordinary person to climb out of a circle of povery without a support system. And not many of us are all that extraordinary.

You can't do what you don't know.


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I do not think the Government is the answer to social problems. I do not look to the Government to solve my problems.
I do believe that we should help those that need help. Those that do not have sound minds or bodies. Unfortunately, we have created a culture of dependency. There is something wrong when 60% of population pays NO taxes. This is very wrong. I think we are a culture of excess. Our poor have systemic bad habits - indulge in poor diet, lifestyle and many have the expectation that the rest of us will pay for their poor choices. Again, I am not talking about the individuals in our society that truly need help. I am compassionate about helping them and do so through excessive taxes and charitable contributions. Anyone in this country can get an education. It is the path to economic wellbeing.

Personal Responsibility. If we all lived by this credo, then we would have a smaller government and a very strong economy.
Originally Posted by zumbagirl
Who are the truly needy?
The government shouldn't solve social problems so who should? Which social problems should be solved and which should be left to happen with whatever the results may be?
Our poor have systemic bad habits - indulge in poor diet, lifestyle and many have the expectation that the rest of us will pay for their poor choices. Again, I am not talking about the individuals in our society that truly need help.
Originally Posted by zumbagirl
I agree that poverty is generally a moral failing. They just do not act as rationally as middle-class and wealthy people do.

By the way, people who have poor diets actually cost society less, economically, than do people with good diets. People with poor diets tend to die sooner, and the circumstances of their death transpire quickly. They die of heart attacks and the like, rather than experiencing the slow decline of cancer.
Originally Posted by Eilonwy
Yes. I wrote a paper about this last semester. Most people are under the impression that poor diet, and particularly obesity, adds a lot of costs to our health care system. Obesity certainly adds, but some estimates peg those additional expenditures as low as 0.8% of total health care costs. And even the higher estimates don't suggest that poor diet and obesity cost us a ton of money, or are causing this implosion of our health care system or anything.

But more importantly, it's not like the poor have poor diets because they necessarily WANT to have poor diets. Looking at food policy in the United States, it's obvious why the poor eat the way they do. Because corn and soy are subsidized and fruits and vegetables are much more expensive. Because they can save a lot of money by ordering off of the McDonald's dollar menu than by cooking their own meals. Because lower-income areas have, on average, less access to fruits and vegetables than the middle class; while we have grocery stores that stock fruits and vegetables, they have convenience stores that don't. Because they spend more time working and have less time to cook. And let's not forget that NAFTA moved a whole bunch of jobs out of the United States.

I think if we're going to argue that the poor have bad habits or are less rational than the rest of society, we really need to examine that and back that up. This might be true of other habits—aside from their poor diet, I'm not really sure what zumbagirl is talking about..."lifestyle" is a vague word—but in terms of bad diets, I think you can blame policies, not people.
CG since 07/26/09

Last edited by mandatoryfun; 02-24-2010 at 09:33 AM. Reason: fixed typo
Looking at food policy in the United States, it's obvious why the poor eat the way they do. I think if we're going to argue that the poor have bad habits or are less rational than the rest of society, we really need to examine that and back that up. [I]n terms of bad diets, I think you can blame policies, not people.
Originally Posted by mandatoryfun
Yes, exactly. I am fortunate enough to have come from a fairly well-off background. I had college-educated parents who didn't have to work long hours, top-notch schools, all sorts of opportunities to visit museums and attend live performances, well-stocked grocery stores and libraries, etc. I've had all sorts of advantages. I definitely put a lot of time and effort into what I do, but I can't take credit for all of the help I've received. And I can't blame people who didn't have those advantages for not lifting themselves up by their bootstraps.
Thanks for the links, Tendrilly. I'm at work, but some time in the near future will look at them.
That's right, I said it! I wear scrunchies!!

I am a sulfate washing, cone slabbing, curly lovin' s.o.b. The CG police haven't caught me yet.


3a/3b
Hey Tendrilly! I was able to skim some of the links you posted. I plan on reading them more later. I've been under the weather and haven't felt like doing any intense reading lately. It does look promising.
I really am interested in a more intelligent look at what both sides believe.
Like I said, I lean liberal on social issues. Fiscally, I kind of am moderate (maybe a little conservative at times). The links you provided look to be more intellectual in nature than the usual Tea-Party or Fox kind of discussions (My husband watches Fox News, so I am not just assuming...I get the "privilege" of listening to them and am not satisfied with what they say).
Thanks again.
That's right, I said it! I wear scrunchies!!

I am a sulfate washing, cone slabbing, curly lovin' s.o.b. The CG police haven't caught me yet.


3a/3b

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