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Old 10-08-2010, 07:17 AM   #1
 
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Default Can Extracts Like Nettle or Horsetail Act As Proteins???

Hi!

So my hair is officially frustrating me. I've compiled a list of what to stay away from and making sure I'm using the proper items so I don't get a protein overload.

I thought I finally had my list together until the pass few days. Since my hair is porous and poofs up like nobody's business if I use a styler with glycerin, I tried Qhemet's CoCo Detangling Ghee as a styler for twist out. The front of my hair (3c) didn't have any problems with it. The back of my hair (4a) didn't like it at all. The ends were hard, dry, and felt like straw in some areas. So, I added extra virgin olive oil and grapeseed oil to it to see if I would get more moisture. I got a little more but the same results basically. The ingredient list didn't list protein, but had a lot of extracts. Here is the ingredient list:

Ingredients: Distilled Water, Nettle, Barley, Horsetail Extracts, Pure Cocoa Butter, PPG-3 Benzyl Ether Myristate, MSM Sulfur, Cetyl Alcohol, Behentrimonium Methosulfate, Behenamidopropyl Dimethylamine, Butylene Glycol, perservatives (paraben and formaldehyde free)

Has anyone else had a similar reaction to extracts like Nettle, Barley or Horsetail?
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Old 10-10-2010, 10:12 AM   #2
 
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Oh yes. plant extracts act EXACTLY like proteins. I know that's why I can't stand any of the Yes To... conditioners. I'm glad you posted this though! I went through a tub of QB Cocoa Ghee a year ago (back before I knew proteins were the devil) and didn't know why MY hair rejected it and everyone else's loved it. I kept using it, thinking it would get better. NOT. lol

The interesting thing about this is that Qhem herself is protein-sensitive (seriously, I asked)...and all of her products are meant to be protein free. I guess some of us can handle extracts and others cannot.
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Old 10-10-2010, 05:31 PM   #3
 
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Being protein sensitive is really no joke. After being natural for 2 years I think I'm finally getting it...lol
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Old 10-11-2010, 11:56 AM   #4
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AmberBrown View Post
Oh yes. plant extracts act EXACTLY like proteins. I know that's why I can't stand any of the Yes To... conditioners. I'm glad you posted this though! I went through a tub of QB Cocoa Ghee a year ago (back before I knew proteins were the devil) and didn't know why MY hair rejected it and everyone else's loved it. I kept using it, thinking it would get better. NOT. lol

The interesting thing about this is that Qhem herself is protein-sensitive (seriously, I asked)...and all of her products are meant to be protein free. I guess some of us can handle extracts and others cannot.

Good point. Plants extracts tend to be weaker than hydrolized grain proteins. But, if you can't take them, you can't take them. I know I can't do barley.

Hops as an extract seems to bother a fair amount of protein sensitives too.
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Old 10-12-2010, 12:09 AM   #5
 
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Whew! I'm glad you came and backed this up RCC. I pick all this info up from all you OG Curlies and then I can never remember when and where exactly it was said. And it can be tough finding the proof out there on the net.
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Old 10-15-2010, 04:38 PM   #6
 
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Thanks!!

I went back to using my Qhemet Amla and Olive Heavy Creme and my hair is thanking me.
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Old 10-15-2010, 08:35 PM   #7
 
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I really wouldn't expect extracts from nettles to have much protein. You'd have to puree the plant to get much protein. But the horsetail extract makes me wonder...
I cannot use AO brand at all. Those have horsetail and coltsfoot. AO's rich, creamy conditioners leaves my hard-to-dry-out hair very tangly and crunchy and like straw. Horsetail and coltsfoot both have silica. Silica is "sand." Horsetail is also known as "scouring rush" because people used to use the plants to scour out pots. If you pick it, you can feel the silica grit in the stems.
I don't think you'd want silica sand in your hair. But if you swallow horsetail extract as pills, it makes your nails and hair grow faster.

I also see a surfactant (detergent) in that product you mentioned. That could be a problem.

Just my $0.02.
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Old 10-16-2010, 02:25 PM   #8
 
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I really wouldn't expect extracts from nettles to have much protein. You'd have to puree the plant to get much protein. But the horsetail extract makes me wonder...
I cannot use AO brand at all. Those have horsetail and coltsfoot. AO's rich, creamy conditioners leaves my hard-to-dry-out hair very tangly and crunchy and like straw. Horsetail and coltsfoot both have silica. Silica is "sand." Horsetail is also known as "scouring rush" because people used to use the plants to scour out pots. If you pick it, you can feel the silica grit in the stems.
I don't think you'd want silica sand in your hair. But if you swallow horsetail extract as pills, it makes your nails and hair grow faster.

I also see a surfactant (detergent) in that product you mentioned. That could be a problem.

Just my $0.02.
Silica, while most abundantly found on earth as sand or quarts, is not actually sand in your hair products. Silica is also found in foods (e.g. cereals, rice, oats, cucumbers, onions, lettuce, strawberries) and plants such as horsetail. Silica is good for strengthening the hair and keeping it healthy, it is important building block of hair and may prevent hair loss and stimulate hair growth. Not only does it benefit the hair, but the skin and nails as well.

surfactants are not all bad, there are some that are harsh (SLS) and there are some that are mild (e.g., decyl glucose). The two in the detangling ghee (behentrimonium methosulfate and behenamidopropyl dimethylamine) are mild conditioning agents
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Old 10-16-2010, 02:35 PM   #9
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Curly83 View Post
Hi!

So my hair is officially frustrating me. I've compiled a list of what to stay away from and making sure I'm using the proper items so I don't get a protein overload.

I thought I finally had my list together until the pass few days. Since my hair is porous and poofs up like nobody's business if I use a styler with glycerin, I tried Qhemet's CoCo Detangling Ghee as a styler for twist out. The front of my hair (3c) didn't have any problems with it. The back of my hair (4a) didn't like it at all. The ends were hard, dry, and felt like straw in some areas. So, I added extra virgin olive oil and grapeseed oil to it to see if I would get more moisture. I got a little more but the same results basically. The ingredient list didn't list protein, but had a lot of extracts. Here is the ingredient list:

Ingredients: Distilled Water, Nettle, Barley, Horsetail Extracts, Pure Cocoa Butter, PPG-3 Benzyl Ether Myristate, MSM Sulfur, Cetyl Alcohol, Behentrimonium Methosulfate, Behenamidopropyl Dimethylamine, Butylene Glycol, perservatives (paraben and formaldehyde free)

Has anyone else had a similar reaction to extracts like Nettle, Barley or Horsetail?
I have 4b/a hair and my hair loves this ghee.

I would suggest try concentrating it on the ends in your 4a area that didn't respond well to it. I find that I can't use it alone on my hair and have to add a moisturizer on top of it, otherwise, my hair dries not feeling too moisturized. I apply it under QB brbc.

Extracts are usually not high up on ingredient lists like that (they are used in small percentages (sometimes less than 1%) if the extract is highly concentrated. If QB is listing as per FDA standards, then we are to believe that the extracts in there are a high percentage, but if she is not, then the extracts should be somewhere close to the bottom. I'm not sure which, but my gut tells me that they should be close to the bottom

HTH
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Old 10-27-2010, 07:26 PM   #10
 
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Curlmart has the KC Spiral Spritz listed as being protein free:

Ingredients: Lavender water, extracts of horsetail, nettles and sage, aloe vera gel, vitamin B-5, glycerin, citric acid, and grapefruit seed extract

Curious if anyone who's protein sensitive has tried it and if your hair had any type of reaction to the extracts in it?
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Old 11-03-2010, 03:01 PM   #11
 
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SOme educated guesses:

Since the extracts tend to be pretty expensive, they also tend to be down the bottom of the ingredients list.

I would also hazard a guess that the silica is the issue since its about the only thing that both horsetail and nettle have in common.
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Old 11-03-2010, 04:46 PM   #12
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by morrighu View Post
SOme educated guesses:

Since the extracts tend to be pretty expensive, they also tend to be down the bottom of the ingredients list.

I would also hazard a guess that the silica is the issue since its about the only thing that both horsetail and nettle have in common.

Not that the extracts tend to be more expensive, but rather they are concentrated (expense has nothing to do with it). For example, aloe extract 200X is highly concentrated and you would just need .5% of batch weight to make aloe juice in your water. So if you see something like nettle 4:1, this means that 4 parts of plant matter is used to create 1 part of extract, so it's concentrated and thus you would need only a little, so you would place it at the end of the ingredients list as per FDA regulations on labeling in order of proportion of ingredient in product (large to small)
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Old 11-04-2010, 09:45 AM   #13
 
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Compared to water, glycol, etc. that make up the base set of ingredents in most any product, the extracts - ounce for ounce - are a lot more expensive. For most manufacturers, $$$ not concentration is the driving factor in forulating a product. It all has to do with that thing.... oh yea, the profit margin.

However, in looking at their website I see MSM listed as an ingredient. While that's not a protien per se, it can act very much like one and that might be your culprit as well. It's been touted as protien precursor and given to race horses for decades.
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Old 11-04-2010, 10:11 AM   #14
 
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Originally Posted by morrighu View Post
Compared to water, glycol, etc. that make up the base set of ingredents in most any product, the extracts - ounce for ounce - are a lot more expensive. For most manufacturers, $$$ not concentration is the driving factor in forulating a product. It all has to do with that thing.... oh yea, the profit margin.

However, in looking at their website I see MSM listed as an ingredient. While that's not a protien per se, it can act very much like one and that might be your culprit as well. It's been touted as protien precursor and given to race horses for decades.
My point is expense has nothing to do with labeling or how much of an ingredient you use. I can use 2% honeyquat not because it's expensive, but because that's the amount I want in my product. I use 1% preservative not because it's expensive but because that's the amount that works best for my product. If you get concentrated extracts, yes, they might be expensive (relative to other ingredients in your formulation), but that's NOT the reason why you use less of it, you use less because that is the recommended usage. Extracts are not the most expensive ingredient in products, they are up there though, but that's not why one uses a small % of them. If they are not concentrated (like if it's 1:1) then you would use a larger % in your products.

Another example why expense has nothing to do with labeling: Hydrosols are typically more expensive than water and they are used at similar amounts in some products. By your logic, you would have these at well below the percent of water in your product (because of expense), but if you look at products that use hyrdosols (or distillates e.g., rose, chamomile, rosemary, geranium) you will find that they are right at the top close to the water (if any). Another example is essential oils. These tend to be expensive, but it's because they are very potent that you see them at the end of ingredient lists. Because the recommended usage is really small. Same with fragrance oils, but these tend to be cheaper than essential oils, but they can be found right down there with them.. Expense might factor into why someone chooses to use an ingredient, but not in labeling. As I have outlined, there are ingredients that have recommended usages that are very small, so you CAN'T use a lot of them even if you wanted to--and they can be cheap or expensive, that doesn't matter when you are labeling your product. I can use a really expensive butter as my 2nd ingredient (high % of batch weight) or I can use the same butter at 3% of batch weight, either way, I will label according to proportion, not expense of ingredient.
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Old 11-30-2010, 01:41 PM   #15
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jusduit View Post
Curlmart has the KC Spiral Spritz listed as being protein free:

Ingredients: Lavender water, extracts of horsetail, nettles and sage, aloe vera gel, vitamin B-5, glycerin, citric acid, and grapefruit seed extract

Curious if anyone who's protein sensitive has tried it and if your hair had any type of reaction to the extracts in it?
I have the KC Spiral Spritz. My hair reacts to it the same way it would a protein overload.
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Old 12-10-2010, 01:51 PM   #16
 
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I've ditched the Detangling Ghee and tried the SheaMoisture line. But to no avail, my hair didn't like that either.

Now that I look at both products ingredients, it's the
Behentrimonium Chloride or Methosulfate (Cationic surfactants, also known as quaternary ammonium compounds, are sometimes regarded as being more irritating than anionic surfactants. While they are added to hair products to improve combability and shine, as well as to provide a more
stable emulsion, they can leave a residual film on hair even when it is thoroughly rinsed).

I looked up the ingredient on Live Curly Live Free. This combined with all the extracts were probably the culprit.

Now I'm on to try the MyHoneyChild products.
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