Emulsifying oils in FSG

Farah85 · 11-21-2011, 03:22 PM

I've recently started putting my FSG in clear bottles and have been noticing that the oils keep rising to the surface of it and need a vigorous shake before use. Obviously I should have seen this coming but I was sincerely hoping that the consistency of FSG and the honey I was putting in it would keep the oils suspended / emulsify them... What can I use in small quantities to emulsify the oils in FSG without compromising the texture and consistency much?

Or could it be that I'm just putting too much oil in there?

Any help / thoughts are much appreciated..

OnlyNow · 11-22-2011, 12:08 PM

Hi. The pioneer of FSG on CurlTalk, BotticelliBabe, said on the main FSG thread that anything more than a bare minimum of any kind of fat(oil or butter) would stop the gel from "working". Not exactly sure what she meant by that, but I figured it was a bad thing, and never tried it. Don't know if she tried FSG w/ a fat and emulsifier. You could PM her and find out, but I suspect it doesn't work well made up as a sort of mayonnaise. If you want to take a chance anyway, makingcosmetics.com has a whole array of emulsifying agents they sell in small amounts. They also provide a little direction on how to use them. To make a product that feels more like a water based gel than a fatty face cream, an "oil-in-water" type emulsifier would be right.

On the other hand, if you want to use two separate products as most people doing FSG do, you can mix your FSG only w/ water-soluble ingredients like the honey (or other sugar syrup) you are already using, a pinch of citric acid for smoothing the cuticle and helping w/ freshness, panthenol for anti-frizz, and even a bit of xanthan gum for hold. Then, separately, you could make an emulsified water/oil moisturizing milk to put on the hair on top of or underneath the FSG, using a water-in-oil emulsifier. You'd have to experiment w/ when to use the milk (in place of a leave-in after using a slippery rinse-out, or right after the FSG while the hair is wet, or later when scrunching out the crunch, etc.) to find out what works best for your hair.

If you're going to create your own moisturizing milk, you may be interested to learn about a new, water-soluble, anti-frizzing ingredient which is superior in many ways to silicones, and won't suffocate the hair. It's called ethylhexyl palmitate (derived from palm oil), and works wonders in a moisturizing product by adding softness and shine and reducing frizz. You can buy it online from the Personal Formulator Oils - - Ethylhexyl Palmitate
For best moisturizing, the milk would be over half water emulsified w/ the fatty portion (oils) that has an emulsifier and the EHP dissolved in it. Again, you'd have to experiment w/ the amount of EHP b/c the website only says products include 5 - 50% of it.

Farah85 · 11-22-2011, 12:43 PM

@Onlynow - Wow, thank you so much for all of this information!

I guess what I'm trying to do is minimize the amount of things I layer under FSG (and over it), which is why I'm trying to pack as many hair goodies in there as I can!

Here's what I put in it right now

FSG made from distilled water (1/4 cup FSG to 2 cups water recipe)
honey
fresh aloe vera juice (I scrape the gel from the leaf & liquify it w/ stick blender)
silk amino acids
coconut oil (which is starting to solidify a lot now that it's getting cold, thinking of replacing w jojoba)
epsom salt
citric acid
lavender, lemon and sweet orange essential oils

phew, yes, it's a mouthful! I've realized that all of these non-gelly liquids are really watering the gel down so I'm playing with percentages, but it might be pointless to add some of this stuff in too-small quantities. What I really want to create is a very nourishing styling product that could provide some moisture and emollience and hold and shine and everything, hehe.

I know Jessicurl RR has some jojoba oil in it but I don't know if anyone notices it separating or if it somehow remains suspended or if it exists in it in very low quantities (I know Too Shea is very rich so it might not be necessary for RR to have any oil at all)... I wonder if hydroxethylcellulose (sp?) or any of the gums help emulsify oils... my few experiments with them kind of failed, but I'm pretty sure I wasn't doing it right..

Speaking of which.. I used to mix the FSG with my stick blender once I'm done whisking everything together but lately I've realized that that liquifies it a bit too much and breaks up the globbiness (which I actually like!) and switched to merely manually whisking it with the teardropped whisk .. I wonder if the stick blender was helping emulsify the oil but my chem 101 in my mind is telling me that that would be temporary unless there is an agent that binds to both water & oil in the right amount (and enough heat?) ..

I don't really want to make a cream out of the whole thing, I just want FSG that is as nourishing as possible without compromising the hold too much.. Maybe the answer is no oil and just using a richer leave-in?

And thanks for the tip re: EHP, I will try to see if I can source it here in Jordan. I have BTMS (BTMS-25? the one with the humectant added) and BTMS-50 and can't wait to experiment with them but not with FSG .. I don't want to compromise the gel-ness of the FSG..

Aah! So many combinations and permutations and things to try and not enough hairwashes in a week

Thanks for your help

OnlyNow · 11-22-2011, 06:30 PM

You've been doing an impressive amount of concocting!

My gut tells me that odds are trying to get the fats into the FSG will greatly reduce the hold, and a separate richer leave-in or other fatty moisturizing product will be more successful. You've already experienced how vigorous blending breaks up the "globbiness" of FSG--the very property which gives it its magic. You can't emulsify w/o vigorous blending and heat alone won't help. The problem is you are trying to do two opposite things at the same time to one product. If you are trying to recreate Rockin' Ringlets (FSG w/ a little Jojoba oil) w/ the idea of using it as an all in one product, you should be aware that just about everyone who swears by it on Curl Talk uses it mainly for the curl enhancement from the mag sulfate (epsom salts), and uses some kind of fatty styler or leave-in, and a gel on top for hold along with it. I did a search, and can't find anyone who claims it's their all in one product.

I think the best idea is to concentrate on optimizing the FSG for hold, water retention, and curl enhancement (w/ Epsom salts), and use a separate product, either commercial or homemade, for softening, shine and all the other good things fats do. Two products plus a rinse-out is still less than most people on this board use. Honey is the only hold-enhancer you've added to the FSG. Some people add xanthan gum also.

If you decide to make the fatty product yourself, I'd still emulsify the oils/butters w/ a lot of water for best results in your climate and w/ your hair type. That means buying a hair-safe emulsifier as whipping and heat alone won't do the trick. Maybe you could make the BTMS-50 you already own work until you use it up.

BTMS is mostly used for slip though it has some emulsifying ability. FSG works in part by encouraging clumping--in a way the opposite of slip which tends to separate the hairs for easy detangling, so the BTMS will probably be a negative in FSG. I restrict my BTMS use (and all polyquats) to what comes in my commercial rinse out conditioner, as I comb & detangle my hair under running water in the shower. To avoid wasting expensive water where you are, you might want to comb using water in the sink instead.

I'm a little surprised you decided to go for a humectant ingredient in your climate, unless you are planning to use it only in the winter rainy season. People say that using a humectant in very dry weather draws moisture out of the hairs into the product tending to make the hair drier.

Does it cost a ridiculous amount to have ingredients shipped from the U.S.? Just wondered why you are trying to source ingredients locally. I think it is unusual that in the U.S. we have enough people making lotions and such at home so businesses exist selling the ingredients in small amounts. Elsewhere, for the most part, these things are only sold in industrial quantities.

You have shown remarkable resourcefulness so far. Very few people have experimented w/ FSG as much as you have. I'm sure you will find a solution which works for your hair in your climate.

OnlyNow · 11-22-2011, 07:31 PM

I just saw a wonderful looking moisturizing whip which a tiny company in Louisiana makes to order. It's incredibly reasonable in cost for the quality ingredients, like macadamia and avocado oils, they use. You can read about it here: Camille Rose Naturals Aloe Whipped Hair Gel - NaturallyCurly.com and buy it from their website. They ship abroad, but you'd have to contact them for the cost. If you liked, you could improve it and extend it by blending in ethylhexyl palmitate and additional water. I don't know if you'd have to add more BTMS or other emulsifier to keep it emulsified w/ the additional ingredients or if what's already in it would be enough.

I've never seen an emulsified oil product made of only premium ingredients like this one. Even the preservative, optiphen, is a higher cost, safer one. Can't be sure, but I suspect that it would make a wonderful companion to hold-enhanced FSG.

Farah85 · 11-23-2011, 02:53 AM

@OnlyNow - I want to thank you again for your generosity with information..

I guess I should offer backdrop to all of this concocting (and the attempts to source stuff locally): After moving back to Jordan after 6 years in the US I've realized how my sulfate and cone free options in the hair department are very, very limited. I am very interested in social enterprise and creative business solutions to poverty/unemployment issues that we face and let's just say that a lot of thinking, researching and frustration with the status quo led me to decide to start a social enterprise that is focused on job creation through the creation of new consumer brands (ambitious, I know, but think of that as a like 20 year plan)...

Of course, the natural next step seemed to be starting with launching a new hair care brand! I have a background in science and technology as well as creative writing and it took me a while to realize that I love creating things / starting things... Prior to me deciding to make an enterprise out of this I used to just make FSG for myself, my friends, and all of their friends and their friends' friends who would get jealous when they see how amazing their hair is looking. That helped in zeroing in on hair products as a first brand to launch. When I explain to people about cleansing w/ gentler surfactants and using cone-free conditioners etc they just stare at me and say: where can we buy this stuff? There is an obvious gap in the market..

So... with that in mind, I'm trying to learn as much as possible myself until I raise enough money for this business to hire someone who can help me out (scientifically)

. I have a workshop set up at home and I quit my day job (dangerous, I know, hehe). I try to get my raw materials from Jordan because I don't want to rely on how easy it is to get it from US suppliers (small quantities, shipping yes but still generally affordable) because I will ultimately need to source them here. I try to talk suppliers into selling me stuff in small quantities.. But it's still tricky because most importers import the generic stuff that goes in cheap commercial hair care products and very few import the real hair goodies (if any). In the future I could pay them to import stuff specifically for me but that would be expensive and would necessitate raising some capital first..

I guess when I say it's really dry here I mean it doesn't get really humid much (so except for really rainy days which are sadly few and far in between I don't have to cater to real humidity in the immediate local market). I'm still not very well versed in dewpoint-speak but I feel like most of the year is really hospitable to curly hair.. This will change if the business takes off the ground and I decide to cater to neighboring countries in the mediterranean region as coastal cities tend to be much more humid.. My hair can generally tolerate the honey in the FSG I make and most people who have been trying it as well.. But then again maybe the bit of oil I put in it has been helping seal the hair? Not sure..

Maybe when I whip up a rich-ish leave-in I will be less desperate to give people one product that is magic in a bottle to try .. I can give them a magical combination.. hehe. Like you said, I should probably optimize FSG for hold and get studying on ingredients and how to make a conditioner and optimize that for other stuff

.. I'm glad you said optiphen is a high quality safe preservative because I have some of that and Germall plus at hand that I want to try to preserve my FSG with.. We'll see how it stands up to a challenge test at the lab.. I will report back my findings for all of you curlies in terms of successful preservation of microbe friendly FSG when I have results although I know a lot of users like Kathymack preserve it with great success using optiphen (I think.. I'm not 100% sure).. IAgirl gave me a lot of insights and information on preservation.. All of you curlies on this board are incredibly amazing and generous!

Once again I want to thank you for your generous help and the tip on that oil whip... I generally order a truckload of stuff if I have a friend/relative flying in from North America so I will keep it on my list

IAgirl · 11-23-2011, 11:20 AM

Xanthan gum will keep your oils in suspension and add hold. Those sold as"dehydroxanthan gum" or "clear xanthan gum" are really the nicest to work with and give good hold and definition. You can use it at 0.75%, but you'll get phenomenal hold at 1 to 1.5%. Xanthan does not emulsify oil and water, but it does help suspend the oils.
I always add a few drops of oil to my FSG to make a softer end-product (no "curly twigs," as you've called it!) With all the wonderful amino acids and aloe and honey and the FSG itself, your product is already nourishing and moisturizing without adding a lot of oil.

One of the women on the 2's board posted a while back that she preserved an FSG recipe with ingredients almost identical to yours with Optiphen Plus (phenoxyethanol, caprylyl glycol, sorbic acid) and it stayed very stable, bacteria-free and gave good results after a month of use. She was very careful to sterilize everything that touched her FSG, even the counter she worked on, particularly because she needs to take medication which suppresses her immune system, so she had to be very careful about contamination. That preservative does tend to reduce the stringiness of the FSG, though.

Polysorbate 20 or Polysorbate 60 are emulsifiers which will help your oil and FSG blend. Polysorbate 80 does the same, but has conditioning/antistatic effects. These are super thick and need to be heated a little to thin them, but then I think they would whisk right in. I agree with you, I much prefer FSG which has not been blended too vigorously. It's not as deliciously squishy and the bubbles are not very attractive.

Farah85 · 11-25-2011, 01:37 PM

Thank you @IAgirl .. I am going to try working with xanathan gum again...

I will report back on all my preservative experiments, and I'll try to get that polysorbate as well..

This is too much fun!

IAgirl · 11-26-2011, 04:46 PM

I just made a batch of FSG with 1.5% xanthan gum, apricot kernel oil, protein and panthenol.
It is sooooo thick and slimy! I think it doesn't even need the flax gel with that much xanthan (could use plain water instead). Has very good hold, but it finishes so very soft after you scrunch it out. It really tames my husband's frizz too. I like the xanthan gum for adding some density to my fine hair. The only down-side is that it does not rinse out as easily as I'd like (so slimy)!

A very different feel than FSG and a somewhat different result. I should have added some aloe...

Yep, this is way too much fun. Except for the cleaning up the mess part.

Farah85 · 11-27-2011, 04:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IAgirl

I just made a batch of FSG with 1.5% xanthan gum, apricot kernel oil, protein and panthenol.
It is sooooo thick and slimy! I think it doesn't even need the flax gel with that much xanthan (could use plain water instead). Has very good hold, but it finishes so very soft after you scrunch it out. It really tames my husband's frizz too. I like the xanthan gum for adding some density to my fine hair. The only down-side is that it does not rinse out as easily as I'd like (so slimy)!

A very different feel than FSG and a somewhat different result. I should have added some aloe...

Yep, this is way too much fun. Except for the cleaning up the mess part.

I'm going to try this.

I think I've been turning my FSG into a product that is more "hairfood" than a styling product capable of achieving clumps. I get great results when I load my hair up with it but the quantities I use per wash are just not commercially viable for others to use. My "testers" report excellent results but then again most of them have hair that is recovering from harsh gels and mousses and regular blowdrying (straight) and they don't know better :P .. Or they don't know how much better it COULD be. Hehe.

Farah85 · 12-19-2011, 12:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IAgirl

I just made a batch of FSG with 1.5% xanthan gum, apricot kernel oil, protein and panthenol.
It is sooooo thick and slimy! I think it doesn't even need the flax gel with that much xanthan (could use plain water instead). Has very good hold, but it finishes so very soft after you scrunch it out. It really tames my husband's frizz too. I like the xanthan gum for adding some density to my fine hair. The only down-side is that it does not rinse out as easily as I'd like (so slimy)!

A very different feel than FSG and a somewhat different result. I should have added some aloe...

Yep, this is way too much fun. Except for the cleaning up the mess part.

Hey!

So I finally got around to taking the xanthan back out and giving it another shot. 6 hours in the workshop of giving it another shot!

I made 2 batches of gel and added:

wheat germ oil
aloe (that I've processed at home and filtered and heated and held and preserved so I'm curious to see if there's any goodness left in it or if I killed all the actives in the process)
silk amino acids
epsom salt
citric acid
essential oils (lavender and sweet orange)
preservative (germall plus powder)
and just under 1% xanthan to one and just under 0.5% xanthan to the other

I didn't add agave or honey partly because of the dews and partly because I want to see how good the xanthan is for hold on its own

the 1% batch was so thick it was approaching KCCC consistency! I can't wait to try that one!

I also made a batch that I included agave in for hold and a teeny tiny amount of xanthan (1/4 tsp to 1 cup yielded gel) to try and keep the oils suspended in the solution. I really hope it doesn't separate out!

I will report back once I try all of them but MAN, the cleaning after all of this was a PAIN! Literal pain in my back!

IAgirl · 12-22-2011, 03:40 PM

Looking forward to a report. I really like the clumps and hold from the xanthan. It is soooo thick! Difficult to bottle thick. Sometimes I add a few drops of agave when I want extra hold (as I apply it), otherwise it always has a very soft "finish." Hope the oils stay suspended for you!
I totally forgot to mention - get water into your pan RIGHT AWAY to soak off the xanthan-ed FSG residue. An overnight soak should make clean-up easier if you don't get water in there right away. Save your back.

When I use proteins + aloe (and xanthan and oil), I skip epsom salt and get as-good-as if not better curl enhancement. And no worries (for me, anyhow) about drying my hair. I've found that I can use panthenol (oh no, another ingredient!) instead of protein and it works just as well. It's a film-forming humectant, but absolutely not like glycerin - no frizz.
Your FSG must smell heavenly - like Southern France meets Florida.

Farah85 · 12-27-2011, 01:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IAgirl

Looking forward to a report. I really like the clumps and hold from the xanthan. It is soooo thick! Difficult to bottle thick. Sometimes I add a few drops of agave when I want extra hold (as I apply it), otherwise it always has a very soft "finish." Hope the oils stay suspended for you!
I totally forgot to mention - get water into your pan RIGHT AWAY to soak off the xanthan-ed FSG residue. An overnight soak should make clean-up easier if you don't get water in there right away. Save your back.

When I use proteins + aloe (and xanthan and oil), I skip epsom salt and get as-good-as if not better curl enhancement. And no worries (for me, anyhow) about drying my hair. I've found that I can use panthenol (oh no, another ingredient!) instead of protein and it works just as well. It's a film-forming humectant, but absolutely not like glycerin - no frizz.
Your FSG must smell heavenly - like Southern France meets Florida.

Report as promised:

The FSG with 0.5% and 1% xanthan definitely had (substantially improved) thickness but not enough hold for me and most of the people who tested it for me

. That made me sad because I was hoping I could skip the sticky humectanty stuff esp in the current low dews but no such luck. I loved the consistency of the 1% xanthan gel though. It felt like SUCH a treat to be able to keep all the gel IN MY HAND and none of it in the bathtub. But interestingly, my sister (whose hair is slightly coarser and definitely less porous than mine) liked the 1% xanthan version (and by liked I mean she didn't complain; she's not nearly as obsessed as I am). But then again she can get away with conditioner only styling, and constant sulfate shampooing does nothing bad to her hair. So her hair is not very picky and very easy to please..

Today I made lots of variation of gel with Xanthan and sticky stuff (honey/agave) and HEC with sticky stuff (honey/agave). I really like the super professional finish of HEC. Also less of it is needed to achieve a particular thickness than xanthan. I was lazy so I didn't work out the percentages of thickner I used I just went by 1/2 tsp to the cup and 1 tsp to the cup but if I get sth I like I will go back and work it out as a percentage and let you know! Also my stupid scale (which is supposed to be accurate to 0.1 of a gram) is really not that accurate and is not very reliable with super small quantities of powder. I have to keep coaxing it to give me a reading and then I have to hope it's the correct one.. I frequently measure a large quantity of something, work out how many volume units it was (like say quarter teaspoons) and then figure out the weight per unit but that doesn't really work with things like germall plus powder because it absorbs moisture from the air and its volume:mass relationship is not very reliable..

I was wondering, what kind of scale do you use? I have a regular kitchen one (that goes up to 3 KG in 1 and 5 g increments) and the (made in china) sensitive one which cost me about 70SUD. When I looked around in the chemistry supply stores here the really good German ones were upward of 550 USD and I wasn't ready to fork over that much money yet. I might have to do it soon.. It would help to know what other people are using..

p.s. panthenol is totally on my list of dying-for ingredients. My hair really likes it in the conditioners I use. Also, yes the citrus lavender combination is great, although I worry about the photosensitivity and drying potential of the citrus EOs.

p.p.s. Oils totally remained in suspension! Success!!

IAgirl · 12-27-2011, 03:23 PM

I've put agave in my xanthan-FSG lately and it is giving me super hold in dry air, and nice volume. A problem I and a couple other fine-haired wavies had with HEC/agave FSG was the way it makes the hair near the crown look "wet" or stick together with unscrunchable crunch. It is a nicer-feeling product (in the hand), for sure. Adding protein helps (some) with that.

I have a basic kitchen scale, accurate to 0.1g. It was an inexpensive one. I often weigh things a few times with questionable-quality scales when measurements really matter. If yours is not working well, you might look around for another modestly priced one (maybe a different brand) before shelling out a lot more money. You don't need "to the hundredth of a gram" accuracy for hair gel unless you're working with lots and lots of ingredients.

One thought - some scales need to be calibrated when you first use them. Usually this is scientific scales, but you can calibrate some kitchen scales too - if you still have the manual, check that out, or see if there is a "set" button. It's rarely a straight forward process. Calibration is using a known weight (for our lab scales we use pennies or a standard weight set) and then setting the scale to that weight, which makes it accurate. Lab-quality scales do need calibration and are pricier, sometimes you can get a good deal on Ebay, but shipping might sink that idea. They're not always predictable, either!

If the problem is that you are sifting the powders into liquids, then you might try weighing the powders separately in a little dish. The scale may be more sensitive when it is not weighed down by the water.

You're so conscientious to take care about the photosensitivity of the citrus oils.

Farah85 · 12-29-2011, 02:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IAgirl

I've put agave in my xanthan-FSG lately and it is giving me super hold in dry air, and nice volume. A problem I and a couple other fine-haired wavies had with HEC/agave FSG was the way it makes the hair near the crown look "wet" or stick together with unscrunchable crunch. It is a nicer-feeling product (in the hand), for sure. Adding protein helps (some) with that.

I have a basic kitchen scale, accurate to 0.1g. It was an inexpensive one. I often weigh things a few times with questionable-quality scales when measurements really matter. If yours is not working well, you might look around for another modestly priced one (maybe a different brand) before shelling out a lot more money. You don't need "to the hundredth of a gram" accuracy for hair gel unless you're working with lots and lots of ingredients.

One thought - some scales need to be calibrated when you first use them. Usually this is scientific scales, but you can calibrate some kitchen scales too - if you still have the manual, check that out, or see if there is a "set" button. It's rarely a straight forward process. Calibration is using a known weight (for our lab scales we use pennies or a standard weight set) and then setting the scale to that weight, which makes it accurate. Lab-quality scales do need calibration and are pricier, sometimes you can get a good deal on Ebay, but shipping might sink that idea. They're not always predictable, either!

If the problem is that you are sifting the powders into liquids, then you might try weighing the powders separately in a little dish. The scale may be more sensitive when it is not weighed down by the water.

You're so conscientious to take care about the photosensitivity of the citrus oils.

aaargh and now I see what you mean. I made a sample with 1 tsp sticky stuff to the cup (1/2 honey 1/2 agave) and 1 tsp HEC to the cup and I got industrial strength unscrunchable crunch FSG. All the other variations I made (HEC/honey; HEC/agave; xanthan/honey) had 1/2 tsp thickner to the cup and 1 tsp sticky substance to the cup; I'm predicting similar crunch disasters. Which is a shame cuz they all look so pretty and have gorgeous consistencies.

Oops.

But I guess I can make new batches and mix them up to dilute them. That won't be much work at all

but at least it would prevent the wasting of expensive ingredients!! This is all my brother's fault he walked into my "lab" and convinced me to make 4 different formulations at once (so I can be more efficient) and since the last one I made had no hold I just went overboard with the stickies. Oh well.

My scale could definitely use some calibration but the manual describes everything in funny google translate English. But thank you for the tip!! I will spend some time with it and see if i can figure it out..

I weigh my powders in a small bottle cap (that weighs exactly 4 grams) that I found because my scale behaves in the most reliable way if i put the cap, add the powders (without taring, once I tare it decides to stop reading until it hits a gram which is not very cute of it) and it starts reading at tenths of the gram.

IAgirl · 12-29-2011, 03:31 PM

Yep, that's a very moody, diva-like scale. I wonder if the manufacturer has any online manuals in various languages?
Sometimes you can get used scales from universities, schools, or online. You have to read the fine print (do they still work?).
As honey/agave goes, I spend more time on the wavy board and usually 1/2 tsp to a cup FSG is the maximum without getting "Industrial Strength" (love that phrase) hold. Tupperhair. The un-scrunchable crunch.
Brother needs to stay out of the lab! Tell him the inventor needs to focus!!! It's always asking for multiple disasters to do too many things at once. There's a big, fat line between efficiency and spreading yourself too thin.

I have read on literature from manufacturers that a combination of equal parts guar gum and xanthan gum give stronger hold than either one alone. I have made such a gel and it did have impressive hold - that was a while ago. So that's one direction to go.
I share your frustration with HEC. It makes a lovely, clear, squishy gel but it just doesn't perform stunningly in the hair.

Farah85 · 01-29-2012, 03:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IAgirl

Yep, that's a very moody, diva-like scale. I wonder if the manufacturer has any online manuals in various languages?
Sometimes you can get used scales from universities, schools, or online. You have to read the fine print (do they still work?).
As honey/agave goes, I spend more time on the wavy board and usually 1/2 tsp to a cup FSG is the maximum without getting "Industrial Strength" (love that phrase) hold. Tupperhair. The un-scrunchable crunch.
Brother needs to stay out of the lab! Tell him the inventor needs to focus!!! It's always asking for multiple disasters to do too many things at once. There's a big, fat line between efficiency and spreading yourself too thin.

I have read on literature from manufacturers that a combination of equal parts guar gum and xanthan gum give stronger hold than either one alone. I have made such a gel and it did have impressive hold - that was a while ago. So that's one direction to go.
I share your frustration with HEC. It makes a lovely, clear, squishy gel but it just doesn't perform stunningly in the hair.

Reports from the past month of experiments

:

1. I find that my hair can tolerate up to 1 tsp agave per cup (which I'm really approximating to 250 ml to retain my sanity) of FSG. But I do add 1/4 tsp of coconut oil with that. I barely get any crunch at all. But I also use a lot of leave-in which might be something that helps prevent crunch. Maybe wavies use less leave-in to avoid droopy hair? Hmm..

2. So I'm zeroing in on the elusive needs of HEC to perform well in hair. I'm finding that 1/4 tsp to the cup thickens the gel just enough such that it's not watery but doesn't give me stupid misformed curls. I have noticed that people with stronger curl patterns actually favored the samples with MORE HEC (like 1/2 tsp to the cup) because I think it had a KCCC effect of elongating their curls (?). More HEC does make a gel with GORGEOUS consistency and impressive hold (and clumping) but it just does not perform very well in my hair. I'm going to play around more with that and try to figure out the happy HEC zone. I was also thinking about mixing in xanthan and guar in equal parts to make up 1/2 tsp of thickeners to the cup but I don't know if I want to go there.. I was ALSO wondering if it makes sense to make a thicker gel that can be used as a SECOND layer in much smaller quantities over the first gel for clumping and hold. Kinda like confident coils but without the support of the copolymers.

3. I tried 1/2 tsp of xanthan and guar in equal parts to the cup and that was impressive but it gives a bit rougher finish than the HEC

4. I'm realizing that 1/64 tsp citric acid to 1 cup of FSG is sufficient to bring the pH to the 4.5 - 5.0 range! That's crazy considering I used to add 1/4 tsp!! My hair is WAY WAY happier with this pH. (I have been adding a bit of aloe which is also helping bring down the pH)

5. Has anyone experimented with 200:1 aloe vera powder. I think I'm going to cave and opt for that (super pricy) alternative to juice/any other concentration. But I was wondering if anyone tried to make FSG with 0.5% aloe by weight (which is essentially a reconstruction of the juice). I think this is what I'm going to do but I'm still waiting on my shipment to arrive and I'm getting impatient anticipating the effect!!