spinoff: are black women & asian men the least desirable?(Adult)

[Saria]

Originally Posted by CelinaStarr

Yes, and it's sometimes hard not to become jaded and bitter because of this. Maintaining my self esteem and happiness is a constant battle living in a society the constantly puts you down and dehumanizes you just because of the color of your skin.

It's one thing for men of other races not to find me desirable but it hurts alot being rejected by those of my own race. I try to keep trying to take care of myself and tell myself that I'm just as good as women of other races, but damn. My own brother and father will sometimes even talk about black women. My dad thinks that multiracial and mixed race hispanic women are the best looking women and that black women tend to be fat, loud, and unattractive. I remember a few years ago my brother and his friends got together and talked about how ugly black women are. My dad and brother are both black men. Once me and my brother were watching tv together and the show we were watching showed a Latin woman. My brother smiled and turned to me and said (referring to the woman on tv), "That's what I'm talking about. No ugly dark skin black women for me." When I asked my brother why did he like the latin women so much better than black women, he replied, "She light skin with long "good hair". I am no longer close to me brother. He kept talking about black women and it was ruining myself esteem, so I now try to distance myself from him. I still love him though.

That is just sickening, and sad.

As for dark-skinned celebs, she's not much of a celeb anymore, but Janet Hubert of Fresh Prince of Bel-Air left me in awe. I swear I wanted to be her when I was little. I thought she was stunning. Such gorgeous, glossy, smooth skin. She was so incredibly regal and sophisticated. Her character was so intelligent and wise (and still not some cliched "sasssy black woman"). I did not care one bit for her replacement later on in the series.
This clip encapsulates my Vivian love:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FleeO...eature=related

[Residual]

Originally Posted by Sairis

That is just sickening, and sad.

As for dark-skinned celebs, she's not much of a celeb anymore, but Janet Hubert of Fresh Prince of Bel-Air left me in awe. I swear I wanted to be her when I was little. I thought she was stunning. Such gorgeous, glossy, smooth skin. She was so incredibly regal and sophisticated. Her character was so intelligent and wise (and still not some cliched "sasssy black woman"). I did not care one bit for her replacement later on in the series.
This clip encapsulates my Vivian love:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FleeO...eature=related

I love her. That is one of my favorite episodes.

[afrosheenqueen]

Originally Posted by Costenya

I think that when WE start loving ourselves--whether we have nappy hair, light skin, dark skin, big butts, not butts, etc.--then we will project that level of acceptance onto others.

I agree and I think this is something Black men have already put to practice. They face many of the same stereotypes plus some but are breaking down barriers. Many women are doing the smae but not enough.

[KinkyKeeper]

Yeah I was talking about Jacksonville. It's so bad here, I have White female friends who go on dates with (white) guys and all the guy talks about, they say, all night was how he would NEVER, EVER date a Black woman, not even Rihanna. Unfortunately not matter how famous, rich, successful a Black woman gets, there is always some redneck White douche sitting somewhere, going nowhere, in some two pit town who thinks he's better than she is. I mean to say something like that, you have to believe somewhere in your overinflated ego that Rihanna cares that you wouldn't date her. It made me so mad. And I have met this guy, he smells like funky corn chips left out in the sun too long.

And my friends say they weren't talking about Black females or anything, the guy just wouldn't shut up about how bad Black people smell and other stuff. And then my friends felt the need to tell me this the next day with this sad look in their eyes for me, like I didn't already know all this from having grown up here, hearing from a very early age that "I would date you if you weren't Black", "You're pretty FOR a Black girl" and seeing all my White (and even Asian) girlfriends getting a man way before me. Northeast Florida ain't cool, I know of well traveled people who have come here and said they will never come back, it was the most racist place they have been. It's funny becuase I started thinking, if WM/BW relationships are so scarce, how did my dad and mom get together? Turns out they met in Tallahassee, FL. I busted out laughing at the irony, the town we live in now, had my parents paths crossed here, I would never have been born (White men and Black women don't even look at each other here, both apparently thinking the other smells terrible).

So in what we are talking about, I do think environment places a big part. Otherwise statistics for where interracial dating is best and worst would not exist. I mean, overall from what I can tell, the theme is Asian men/Black women are at the bottom no matter where you go, but this is more true in some places than others. That's cool for your daughter and her boyfriend Frau, I actually know of another WM/BW couple (my boss and his wife) who are moving to Atlanta, so maybe that's the new interracial spot and it will move off that list.

Originally Posted by frau

i found this list, not sure if it's the one you're talking about, but it's supposedly the worst place for black/white interracial dating:

the funny thing is that my daughter's boyfriend is from from new smyrna, fl and they're both in school and dating in atlanta, ga.

since hakim nuraldin has gone into hiding, refusing to reveal her exploits i guess i'm forced to truly involve myself in this thread.

here is my opinion based on my experiences:
overall white guys think black women are ugly. why? because society says so. everything that we are naturally is opposite of what the media says is desirable in a mate. many of us are attractive to white men (me of course, lol) and there are white men that choose their partners where their hearts lead them, but family, friends and societal pressure often helps end relationships before they start.

AskMen's top 99 most beautiful women 2009 finds these black women most attractive (i'm including hispanic and multiracial women that have known recent african heritage):
#92 alicia keys


#88 leona lewis


#77 cassie


#63 dania ramirez


#50 beyonce


#43 zoe saldana


#17 selita ebanks


#13 halle berry


#8 rihanna


despite relaxers to straighten hair it's very difficult for the average american black woman to try to live up to those beauty standards.

Yeah, I saw that list, made me so angry. And I am arounf the phenotype of those woman (in terms of coloring and shape of facial features, pointy nose, etc) and that angers me. I hate this exclusion of dark skinned beauty. And it's so obvious, every single "Black woman" they put on that list is mixed through admixture or first generation. They are beautiful but they shouldn't be held up as the only facet of Black beauty.

Originally Posted by CelinaStarr

From what I observe in everyday life most white men and men of other races like and prefer white women and place them on a pedestal. So what if a few white men don't like white women? If a white woman has trouble finding love in her community there are many men of color all around the world that would marry her and find her desirable. Trust me.

This is not directed at anyone in particular in this thread but I find that white women tend to become very upset when they come across the rare man that doesn't find them desirable, and I just don't understand why. It's like they must constantly be on their pedestals. Don't worry, you have plenty of admirers.

Yes, someone else said White women don't walk around thinking they are hot stuff. I respectfully disagree. I don't think they do in the sense that they even know they have a sense of entitlement, or neccesarily thinking they "are hot stuff", or can't have low self esteem as individuals but larger picture, I think in the White dominant society we live in, it's the rare person who escapes unscathed, for good or ill. Whether we know it or not. I had to face my sense of entitlement as a light(ish) skinned Mulatto woman when this black guy completely looked past me to a darker skinned woman. And I was surprised. I realized in that moment that I did unconciously expect Black men to go for me before a darker skinned woman, not something I am proud of but there it is. And I know a White American girl who wrote a piece about being surprised in a trip to England with a Black girlfriend, that the White guys went for her friend before her. She expected them to go for her, like they do back in America.

Originally Posted by Anthro Incarnate

There are some black women who won't date white men because it replays the slave/mistress dynamic that existed for hundreds of years in America. Also the whole, "he'll lynch your brother and rape you, why would you want to be with him?" dynamic. Non-American black women don't have that baggage. But I think this is a minority of black women in 2009 (particularly among those under the age of 40), and I stand by what I said about guys just not being interested in us when there are so many other types of fish in the pond.

ETA that a lot of "black" celebrities who are deemed beautiful are mixed or have not-so-stereotypically black features (light skin; long, wavy hair; almond-shaped eyes; delicate noses; petite frames). The ones who clearly are black (dark-skinned, short/natural/nappy hair, prominent noses, thick builds) AND who are deemed beautiful are considered such DESPITE the fact that they are black. Big difference.

This thread has made me realize exactly why Lana Lang in Smallville bugged me soooooo much. I thought it was because she is a helpless, whiny, self-centered ***** and I couldn't understand why on earth (or Krypton) Clark Kent would pine over her for the better part of a decade. But it's because the character is played by an Asian(ish) actress and it plays into the whole "exotic princess better than anything else around" nonsense.

Yeah, I agree about the bolded. There is the icky slave master connotations to take into account. And I also find it intriguing when a TV character bugs me and I can't figure out why, and I realize it's becuase they have written the character to some stereotype.

[Phoenix]

Oh yeah and Toccara Jones from ANTM is another beautiful dark skinned woman.

[Cletysmom]

Originally Posted by BB

You also have to understand these are women on a dating site and are dealing with a lot of rejection and aren't feeling particularly desirable. Many are not the "white standard of beauty" either. So, when you have some big-mouthed lout who clearly has issues bragging about how he can get some beautiful woman of another race just because he is the white male prize .... well, it sucks.

I want to add that I am not speaking of myself. I mean, I've been rejected cos I am not blonde and too ethnic looking. Why the hell would I want someone who doesn't value me?

I can relate. Sometimes I want to be like CZJ and yell, "I'm WELSH!!" I'm mostly Welsh/English (with the rest being Irish and French), but I guess the dark eyes and hair make people think otherwise. I get told I look Italian/am compared to Italian actresses regularly and have even been mistaken for Hispanic. I'm completely head over heels for tall blonde men, but they rarely give me a second look. They almost always go for women that share their traits. I don't care so much about the hair but I love tall men with light eyes for some reason. I don't mean to be picky, but I'm typically not attracted to short dark men, who are of course, the type that is most often attracted to me!

Maybe it's something about the Welsh/Irish blend that makes me look more "ethnic," as you put it, as CZJ is of a similar background and it's always rumored that she's Hispanic or something non-white. I don't look much like her but we share similar traits.
On a sidenote, why is it that she always talks about being Welsh? She's also Irish and Greek, isn't she? What's so special about being Welsh?

I don't mean to discount or make light of any experiences black women go through. I just wanted to share that I get where you're coming from, BB. I'm waiting for my Robert Redford type of man, but I don't think he'll ever come. Being Welsh apparently isn't all it's cracked up to be. Just look at who CZJ ended up with.

[journotraveler]

Originally Posted by Residual

Her father was Black and her mother Cuban.

But that doesn't say anything about what her mother looked like. It's the equivalent of saying someone is "half-American." I've been told that I look typically Cuban; I'm a relatively-light-skinned black American with curly hair. But again, that doesn't mean anything. I've been to Cuba, and I've seen every range imaginable there, from white-skinned blondes to very dark-skinned, West African-looking folks.

[Residual]

Originally Posted by journotraveler

But that doesn't say anything about what her mother looked like. It's the equivalent of saying someone is "half-American." I've been told that I look typically Cuban; I'm a relatively-light-skinned black American with curly hair. But again, that doesn't mean anything. I've been to Cuba, and I've seen every range imaginable there, from white-skinned blondes to very dark-skinned, West African-looking folks.

I wasn't saying that her being dark skinned meant her mother must be.

I mentioned she was mixed because people always thought she was "just another Black woman" and she suffered discrimination.

[journotraveler]

Originally Posted by Residual

I wasn't saying that her being dark skinned meant her mother must be.

I mentioned she was mixed because people always thought she was "just another Black woman" and she suffered discrimination.

No, I think I understand your point. But my point--and I think Phoenix's point as well--was this: Just because your teacher had a black American parent and a Cuban parent doesn't mean that she is racially "mixed." She is definitely culturally mixed, but she could very well have two black parents--an Afro-Cuban parent and an African-American parent. (Of course, most black Americans are racially mixed, but that's a whole other ball of wax.)

Okay, I'm done. Carry on.

[Residual]

Originally Posted by journotraveler

No, I think I understand your point. But my point--and I think Phoenix's point as well--was this: Just because your teacher had a black American parent and a Cuban parent doesn't mean that she is racially "mixed." She is definitely culturally mixed, but she could very well have two black parents--an Afro-Cuban parent and an African-American parent. (Of course, most black Americans are racially mixed, but that's a whole other ball of wax.)

Okay, I'm done. Carry on.

Ahh, I see. I get ya.

[spiderlashes5000]

Originally Posted by iara

Spidey, you said you will only date African American men. What about Africans and Caribbeans? Is it culture more so than race that is a factor? You mother is European, right? What about a black man from her culture.

In the past, I have dated Caribbean and African men. But the better I know myself, the more I realize, I prefer American men (African American men, that is). A man who is 2nd or 3rd generation American but w/ African or Caribbean parents of grandparents, I would def consider. But yes, culturally, my preference is that they are American (African American, that is! LOL)

Not to take anything away from the African and Caribbean brothas out there. Much love to them too! But I just feel more closely bonded to men who share my immediate culture.

Yeah, my mother is Irish. There really aren't many Black Irish people, except for biracial people and the occasional immigrant from somewhere. Again, not so much interested in men who aren't American.

Culture, ethnicity and race. All of it. He would have to self identify as an African American. I really don't care where his parents or grandparents are from. I don't care about the relative lightness or darkness of his skin. I just want him to be AA.

Originally Posted by iara

Another thing I thought of: many black women on this board as well as I have heard in real life will not date anyone but African American. If a non African American asked a black woman with these criteria out, sincerely would she turn him down?

With which criteria? When I was younger, I was somewhat more open to dating different groups (tho my pref has always been AA). But now? No. As long as there are eligible AA men around, I just really have no interest in other men. I don't even notice them or think about them. *To me* other men just pale in comparison (LOL at pun). And yes, I do and will continue to turn them down.

Originally Posted by iara

This thread reminded me of that god awful movie "Something New" (an hour or so of my life I will never get back). I was watching it will a friend from Latin America and a black American friend. He turns to her is shock that a black woman would refuse a date from a white man just because he is white. In his eyes, white was a prize so why not?

That movie made me sick. Not b/c she was dating a White guy. But b/c of the presentation of this very mediocre White guy as the "better choice."

Whatever...

Originally Posted by iara

A few people on this thread (Spider for one) said it. Amneris and others who identify as black on this board have said it in the past. Several black women I met in real life has expressed the same sentiment. I would say only a third of the black women (both American and not...excluding blacks in Latin America) I met said they would be willing to date outside.

I was curious if it was just cultural (some gave reasons that it was easier, preserving black culture, was easier as in they never have to explain anything, and/or they were never attracted to anyone else) or if it was as you state in the bolded? Maybe it is a combination?

Both cultural and more attracted.

It saddens me that some Black women don't share my opinion. But I happen to think Black men are, overall, the finest, sexiest, brightest, strongest, most creative and most loving men on earth. That's not to say some bruhs don't have their share of problems. But all things considered (i.e., the horrific circumstances many are forced to live everyday), they hold it down pretty damn well.

To me, there really is just no comparison. I don't mean to take anything away from other groups of men, but my experiences are my experiences.

[Phoenix]

Originally Posted by journotraveler

No, I think I understand your point. But my point--and I think Phoenix's point as well--was this: Just because your teacher had a black American parent and a Cuban parent doesn't mean that she is racially "mixed." She is definitely culturally mixed, but she could very well have two black parents--an Afro-Cuban parent and an African-American parent. (Of course, most black Americans are racially mixed, but that's a whole other ball of wax.)

Okay, I'm done. Carry on.

Yes, that was my point, Journo. Thanks!

[BB]

Quote:
Originally Posted by iara This thread reminded me of that god awful movie "Something New" (an hour or so of my life I will never get back). I was watching it will a friend from Latin America and a black American friend. He turns to her is shock that a black woman would refuse a date from a white man just because he is white. In his eyes, white was a prize so why not?



That movie made me sick. Not b/c she
was dating a White guy. But b/c of the presentation of this very mediocre White guy as the "better choice."

Not to make light of the situation, but I have to say this is the first time I've heard anyone refer to Simon Baker as "very mediocre." LOL! I think I need to move to where you live. But race aside, that seems to be the premise of most romantic comedies, isn't it? The woman always picke the sincere but poor man in the end.

I'm wondering what people think of Halle Barry/Gabriel Aubry. She's dated a long line of fine men but this seems to be the only or one of the only healthy relationships she has been in (she was with a guy who beat her and one was a sex addict). The thing I find interesting about them is he is so much in the background that he looks like a prop sometimes. I don't think I've ever heard him talk - he just stands there and looks pretty with the same look on his face. I went to his restaurant in NYC before it closed and there were pictures of them in the ladies room. It was pretty weird

[Phoenix]

GA had a restaurant? I agree he does look like a prop.

[BB]

It was Cuban and the food was pretty bad. It closed in under a year.

[Phoenix]

Why would a French guy think he could/should do Cuban food in NEW YORK? NY, I would think, has its share of good Cuban places.

[medussa]

Originally Posted by Costenya

I would also disagree with those who said that white men in general don't find black women (or any hue or size) attractive. Many of them are scared and intimidated or wouldn't know where to start! Iheard this from my boyfriend (who is not scared and finds beauty in all races). He commented that whenever we were walking down the street, men of all races look (and, while I am not "dark", I certainly am not very "light", nor is my hair flowing down my back, nor am I a supermodel, lol).

I agree with you (as well as Journo), as to the bolded. I also agree with you that some white men are just plain scared to ask a black woman out because they assume a black woman will automatically turn them down. I think back to when I met my husband. He was definitely scared to ask me out. He said: "if I were to ask you out, would you say yes?" He made the assumption that I would reject him, so he asked me out "hypothetically."

Originally Posted by Amneris

I've been thinking about this a lot and I am very troubled about raising children in a majority white society. For me personally, the solution may be to go back to a place where most of the people look like us. I'm still struggling with this. Of course, the people there are still affected by colonialism, white supremacy, white media etc. but at least we have strength in numbers and our own culture is more prevalent. I honestly don't think changing individual attitudes is enough for a problem this long-standing of this magnitude.

Where would you go, if you had your way?

[spiderlashes5000]

Originally Posted by BB

Not to make light of the situation, but I have to say this is the first time I've heard anyone refer to Simon Baker as "very mediocre." LOL! I think I need to move to where you live. But race aside, that seems to be the premise of most romantic comedies, isn't it? The woman always picke the sincere but poor man in the end.

LOL I didn't mean in terms of his looks. He is good looking! Not as fine as Blair Underwood IMO, but def nothing to sneeze at. I just meant his character wasn't as impressive as Blair's. I don't remember the details b/c it was a long time ago...and I hated the movie. But Simon was some kind of scruffy, rather abrasive manual laborer w/ a dog she hated, who was into all sorts of things she couldn't have cared less about, if I recall. And Blair was this dashing, mannerly attorney, educated at a top school, like she had been. If you removed race entirely from the picture, Sanaa's choice to hook up w/ the pesky landcaper in cut-offs over the charming, earnest professional man would seem odd. And race would be the only way to "justify" such a choice.

Originally Posted by BB

I'm wondering what people think of Halle Barry/Gabriel Aubry. She's dated a long line of fine men but this seems to be the only or one of the only healthy relationships she has been in (she was with a guy who beat her and one was a sex addict). The thing I find interesting about them is he is so much in the background that he looks like a prop sometimes. I don't think I've ever heard him talk - he just stands there and looks pretty with the same look on his face. I went to his restaurant in NYC before it closed and there were pictures of them in the ladies room. It was pretty weird

If she has found her soulmate in this Gabriel, then good for her! I have no problem w/ her dating a White guy.

I don't know that we can conclude at this point that this relationship is healthy or not, since this relationship hasn't gone on as long as the others...how do you really know what's going on behind closed doors? And this guy may have more of a motivation to make this relationship work out (due to the child and I'm sure the high profile nature of the relationship helps his career).

But it could def be the real deal w/ them. I hope it is. She seems to be a very unhappy person and I hope she finds what she needs.

[Amneris]

Originally Posted by spiderlashes5000

LOL I didn't mean in terms of his looks. He is good looking! Not as fine as Blair Underwood IMO, but def nothing to sneeze at. I just meant his character wasn't as impressive as Blair's. I don't remember the details b/c it was a long time ago...and I hated the movie. But Simon was some kind of scruffy, rather abrasive manual laborer w/ a dog she hated, who was into all sorts of things she couldn't have cared less about, if I recall. And Blair was this dashing, mannerly attorney, educated at a top school, like she had been. If you removed race entirely from the picture, Sanaa's choice to hook up w/ the pesky landcaper in cut-offs over the charming, earnest professional man would seem odd. And race would be the only way to "justify" such a choice.

Um, just reading this I cannot imagine why someone would NOT choose the Black man in this case! Sounds like a stupid movie I wouldn't want to see.

If she has found her soulmate in this Gabriel, then good for her! I have no problem w/ her dating a White guy.

I don't know that we can conclude at this point that this relationship is healthy or not, since this relationship hasn't gone on as long as the others...how do you really know what's going on behind closed doors? And this guy may have more of a motivation to make this relationship work out (due to the child and I'm sure the high profile nature of the relationship helps his career).

But it could def be the real deal w/ them. I hope it is. She seems to be a very unhappy person and I hope she finds what she needs.

I think she just wanted a child and panicked about her age and had one with whoever was around, and now they're a family they're sticking together but her child is by far #1. But who really knows - I don't know these people at all so for all I know, it is the real deal.

[Amneris]

Originally Posted by spiderlashes5000

It saddens me that some Black women don't share my opinion. But I happen to think Black men are, overall, the finest, sexiest, brightest, strongest, most creative and most loving men on earth. That's not to say some bruhs don't have their share of problems. But all things considered (i.e., the horrific circumstances many are forced to live everyday), they hold it down pretty damn well.

To me, there really is just no comparison. I don't mean to take anything away from other groups of men, but my experiences are my experiences.

The above made me tear up a little because it describes so many men I have known.

I have sometimes felt I was being asked to justify why I have loved mainly Black men, and people have implied that they were a second best choice to white men, I wasn't "good enough" to get a white man or I was being stupid and deliberately shutting myself off from white men, or I should have been able to get a white man because I was light/pretty. The above sums up my answer perfectly. I personally have never had a relationship as intense and beautiful with a non-Black man as some of the ones I have had with a Black one.