Tangled mess! Please help!

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Hi misbehave! I just wanted to add that I wasn't telling you NOT to try Yes to Carrots. I really like it actually! I was just surprised that the ingredient list you had was missing so many of the more "chemical" ingredients. Those are the things that one really has to be careful about when picking a product, and as you said, it is definitely wrong for a company not to be honest about them!

Having said this, I'm medium/coarse, low porosity, dense, and (mostly) 3b, so we might be hair twins (except for length: you are my DREAM twin on that one )! And my hair really likes Yes to Carrots. If the FULL list of ingredients looks okay to you, then I'd say give it a shot. One more possibly hair-twinish thing: Tresemme Naturals Aloe-Avocado makes my hair straighter as well! It's great when I want a looser, wavy look, but otherwise I prefer Aubrey HR, Suave Coconut, VO5 Shea, Shea Moisture, or the Yes To (carrots, cukes, or tomatoes) Line for a conditioner.

Hope this is helpful!
Originally Posted by Hootenanny
Hi!

I was referring to what Kathymack said about the Yes to Carrots being drying because of the Dead Sea Water (Maris Aqua) and Magnesium Chloride. I think I got that ingredient list from this site, in the products section (although I can't be sure of anything at this point)! That makes me a little nervous because of all the other products I've been looking up here.

Another twin, very exciting! I didn't notice that before (or I did and promptly forgot in this madness!) Seems like we are far and few between. I am kind of wishing for a shorter length about now. Your hair looks so shiny and your curls defined, it looks beautiful! You are MY dream twin on that.

Okay, cool, you had the same experience with the Tresemme Naturals. Does your hair like protein and coconut? Looks like a lot of products you use have soy or wheat germ oil and coconut. Are they okay for those of us with a protein sensitivity to use if they are not hydrolyzed? My hair strangely used to like Suave coconut, but hasn't since starting CG. Is that weird? I might check out the VO5 Shea Cashmere...it's cheap and appears harmless lol. Thanks for those recs! I haven't even gotten to figuring out stylers yet.

Sorry I keep getting so long winded. The more I learn the more I don't know!
CG since 3/1/13
3B; Low porosity, Coarse, & Extremely Protein Sensitive
Very high density, waist length

Co wash: Suave Clarifying or Sun Ripened Strawberry
RO: Sun Ripened Strawberry, TN, or TN w/ veg glycerin
Sealer: apricot oil
Styler: 4 Naturals Spring Back Custard, Pantene Curl Defining Mousse, or BB "Mudd"
Using a hard water filter, microfiber towel, & silk head scarves & pillowcases

Avoiding: protein, coconut, & parabens
Just be careful with the coconut oil containing products.....

Sent from my SPH-L710 using CurlTalk App
Originally Posted by MrsBachemin
I keep forgetting to ask you...what do you use? Our hair seems to hate the same stuff!
CG since 3/1/13
3B; Low porosity, Coarse, & Extremely Protein Sensitive
Very high density, waist length

Co wash: Suave Clarifying or Sun Ripened Strawberry
RO: Sun Ripened Strawberry, TN, or TN w/ veg glycerin
Sealer: apricot oil
Styler: 4 Naturals Spring Back Custard, Pantene Curl Defining Mousse, or BB "Mudd"
Using a hard water filter, microfiber towel, & silk head scarves & pillowcases

Avoiding: protein, coconut, & parabens
There's one ingredient that both Tresemme Naturals and Suave Coconut have high up in their ingredient lists, and it's this ingredient that I suspect is what makes my hair straighter after use either of these conditioners: stearamidopropyl dimethylamine (whew, that was a mouthful!). Somehow the effect isn't so pronounced when I use the Suave, however.

My hair loves coconut and it also loves protein, which apparently makes it a freak of nature, since coarse, low porosity hair isn't supposed to like these things (according to what I've heard on this site; other folks disagree with this).

I strongly recommend the Shea Cashmere, unless you are avoiding even minute amounts of protein. Works great as a co-wash, condish, or both! I don't use it as a leave-in, because my hair only likes very, very light leave-ins (I think this is due to the low-porosity).
Medium/coarse, low porosity, dense, mix of 3s
CG (again) since Nov. 2012

Cleanse: SM Moisture Retention, Elucence MBC, KC Come Clean
Condish: Giovanni DL, Cure Care, Ion Treatment, GVP Balm, AOHR
Protein: AOGPB, CNPF, SSRPT
Stylers: KCCC, SM Souffle, AOMM, SS CEJ, JCRR, JCCC


Trying out steaming!
There's one ingredient that both Tresemme Naturals and Suave Coconut have high up in their ingredient lists, and it's this ingredient that I suspect is what makes my hair straighter after use either of these conditioners: stearamidopropyl dimethylamine (whew, that was a mouthful!). Somehow the effect isn't so pronounced when I use the Suave, however.

My hair loves coconut and it also loves protein, which apparently makes it a freak of nature, since coarse, low porosity hair isn't supposed to like these things (according to what I've heard on this site; other folks disagree with this).

I strongly recommend the Shea Cashmere, unless you are avoiding even minute amounts of protein. Works great as a co-wash, condish, or both! I don't use it as a leave-in, because my hair only likes very, very light leave-ins (I think this is due to the low-porosity).
Originally Posted by Hootenanny
You are a wealth of info! Thank you!! Stearamidopropyl dimethylamine...I'll put it on the list of things to avoid and check my products.

Crap, I didn't realize shea = protein. Yes, I have been trying to avoid it all, at least til I get a little more confident with what my annoyingly fussy hair likes and dislikes. Maybe I'll try it anyway for a buck. I'm thinking I might need to do the hair analysis before I go broke with all the new product purchases...I'm pretty confident in my type (I have hairdressers in the family) but something just doesn't seem to be clicking.

I'm headed to the point where I will only be using water!
CG since 3/1/13
3B; Low porosity, Coarse, & Extremely Protein Sensitive
Very high density, waist length

Co wash: Suave Clarifying or Sun Ripened Strawberry
RO: Sun Ripened Strawberry, TN, or TN w/ veg glycerin
Sealer: apricot oil
Styler: 4 Naturals Spring Back Custard, Pantene Curl Defining Mousse, or BB "Mudd"
Using a hard water filter, microfiber towel, & silk head scarves & pillowcases

Avoiding: protein, coconut, & parabens
Just be careful with the coconut oil containing products.....

Sent from my SPH-L710 using CurlTalk App
Originally Posted by MrsBachemin
I keep forgetting to ask you...what do you use? Our hair seems to hate the same stuff!
Originally Posted by misbehave
I'm using the Loreal Ever Sleek line and loving it for the most part. I do find the need to occasionally clarify my scalp though. I use the rinse out conditioner as a leave in (diluted in water), grapeseed oil to seal and Eco Styler gel to style. My hair also does well with the Suave Juicy Green Apple, but for me that one's better as a leave in or a co wash than a rinse out because it's so thin.



Sent from my SPH-L710 using CurlTalk App
misbehave likes this.

Last edited by MrsBachemin; 03-18-2013 at 06:09 AM.
There's one ingredient that both Tresemme Naturals and Suave Coconut have high up in their ingredient lists, and it's this ingredient that I suspect is what makes my hair straighter after use either of these conditioners: stearamidopropyl dimethylamine (whew, that was a mouthful!). Somehow the effect isn't so pronounced when I use the Suave, however.

My hair loves coconut and it also loves protein, which apparently makes it a freak of nature, since coarse, low porosity hair isn't supposed to like these things (according to what I've heard on this site; other folks disagree with this).

I strongly recommend the Shea Cashmere, unless you are avoiding even minute amounts of protein. Works great as a co-wash, condish, or both! I don't use it as a leave-in, because my hair only likes very, very light leave-ins (I think this is due to the low-porosity).
Originally Posted by Hootenanny
You are a wealth of info! Thank you!! Stearamidopropyl dimethylamine...I'll put it on the list of things to avoid and check my products.

Crap, I didn't realize shea = protein. Yes, I have been trying to avoid it all, at least til I get a little more confident with what my annoyingly fussy hair likes and dislikes. Maybe I'll try it anyway for a buck. I'm thinking I might need to do the hair analysis before I go broke with all the new product purchases...I'm pretty confident in my type (I have hairdressers in the family) but something just doesn't seem to be clicking.

I'm headed to the point where I will only be using water!
Originally Posted by misbehave
stearamidopropyl dimethylamine is a very light conditioning ingredient commonly found in lightweight conditioners like TN and SN. It should mostly provide slip, it does not bond very strongly to hair, and should not weigh hair down, especially not coarse hair which usually needs MORE moisture. JMO, but I think you're over thinking this ingredient.

Truly coarse hair is coarse because each strand is comprised of more keratin - the protein that is hair itself - than fine hair. It is generally not a fan of protein because it already has so much and will almost always respond better to moisture. Especially coarse, LP hair - LP hair is hard to moisturize because the cuticle lays very tightly wrapped around the hair & doesn't easily let moisture or protein in so both will tend to sit on the hair and in the case of coarse hair that already has an abundance of protein, that could be disastrous. I'm really, really surprised coarse LP hair would respond well to protein. I know the OP is avoiding it but I saw it mentioned in the thread & wanted to throw my 2 cents in. I don't want to sound like I am questioning properties again, but having them right is so so SO important.

Shea butter is not a protein, it is an emollient. Emollients soften hair and help it retain moisture. Oils are also emollients.

Honestly what I would suggest is springing for a good, thick, moisturizing conditioner, like Curl Junkie Curl Rehab, or Biolage/GVP conditioning balm, check for "behentrimonium methosulfate or chloride" - both of which are heavy conditioners - slathering it on, covering your head with a shower cap, and either applying heat or letting it sit for 30 minutes or both. Coarse LP hair is very difficult to moisturize and yours sounds painfully dry. I wouldn't worry about curl pattern right now, I'd worry about the tangles & dryness & getting that fixed. On the off chance you OC your hair, that will be much easier to fix than having it too dry.
fine, thin, normal/(low?) porosity. Mod-CG. Usually I can't co-wash more than 1x a week, & sometimes I have to use T-Gel in rotation due to scalp issues.

Co-wash: VO5 Volumizing
Poo: Giovanni 50:50
RO:TN, Nexxus Youth Renewal, Alba Coconut
LI: KCKT
PT: gelatin PT, ION EC
Stylers: Giovanni mousse, TIGI Curls Rock amplifier (a-cone), Curls Rock Strong Hold Mousse
Gels: SCC spray gel

Okay, cool, you had the same experience with the Tresemme Naturals. Does your hair like protein and coconut? Looks like a lot of products you use have soy or wheat germ oil and coconut. Are they okay for those of us with a protein sensitivity to use if they are not hydrolyzed? My hair strangely used to like Suave coconut, but hasn't since starting CG. Is that weird? I might check out the VO5 Shea Cashmere...it's cheap and appears harmless lol. Thanks for those recs! I haven't even gotten to figuring out stylers yet.
Originally Posted by misbehave
I just want to be clear that I'm not saying that stearamidopropyl dimethylamine won't work for you. However, since you've said that Tresemme Naturals makes your hair straighter, and that Suave Coconut also doesn't agree with it, I wanted to point out that this is a major ingredient in both, and that I've found the same to occur with my hair.

Coarse, low-porosity hair frequently hates protein. Once I got my first hair analysis (coarse, low-po), I avoided it like the plague, until I randomly decided to take a chance on using Colorful Neutral Protein Filler before coloring my hair. My hair loved it and I haven't looked back since! I'm just a freak, I guess! But I can see that you have already had a (or some?) bad protein experiences, so this topic is irrelevant to your thread.

I do love Shea Cashmere condish. But if you are extremely sensitive to protein, then you should know that it does contain hydrolyzed keratin. Shea butter itself is not protein, and is a great moisturizing ingredient!

Hope this helps you out, misbehave! I haven't found a hair twin since I got here, so I'm very excited!
Medium/coarse, low porosity, dense, mix of 3s
CG (again) since Nov. 2012

Cleanse: SM Moisture Retention, Elucence MBC, KC Come Clean
Condish: Giovanni DL, Cure Care, Ion Treatment, GVP Balm, AOHR
Protein: AOGPB, CNPF, SSRPT
Stylers: KCCC, SM Souffle, AOMM, SS CEJ, JCRR, JCCC


Trying out steaming!
Okay, cool, you had the same experience with the Tresemme Naturals. Does your hair like protein and coconut? Looks like a lot of products you use have soy or wheat germ oil and coconut. Are they okay for those of us with a protein sensitivity to use if they are not hydrolyzed? My hair strangely used to like Suave coconut, but hasn't since starting CG. Is that weird? I might check out the VO5 Shea Cashmere...it's cheap and appears harmless lol. Thanks for those recs! I haven't even gotten to figuring out stylers yet.
Originally Posted by misbehave
I just want to be clear that I'm not saying that stearamidopropyl dimethylamine won't work for you. However, since you've said that Tresemme Naturals makes your hair straighter, and that Suave Coconut also doesn't agree with it, I wanted to point out that this is a major ingredient in both, and that I've found the same to occur with my hair.

Coarse, low-porosity hair frequently hates protein. Once I got my first hair analysis (coarse, low-po), I avoided it like the plague, until I randomly decided to take a chance on using Colorful Neutral Protein Filler before coloring my hair. My hair loved it and I haven't looked back since! I'm just a freak, I guess! But I can see that you have already had a (or some?) bad protein experiences, so this topic is irrelevant to your thread.

I do love Shea Cashmere condish. But if you are extremely sensitive to protein, then you should know that it does contain hydrolyzed keratin. Shea butter itself is not protein, and is a great moisturizing ingredient!

Hope this helps you out, misbehave! I haven't found a hair twin since I got here, so I'm very excited!
Originally Posted by Hootenanny
Lol, I'm excited too. I rarely color my hair, like maybe once every 2 yrs. How often do you color yours? Could that have made your hair like protein? I wonder if I'll be able to tolerate it better after the next time I color.

Okay then, shea butter is okay, but it is the keratin I probably need to avoid. It's hard to find products without SOME kind in them or something else on my list I'm avoiding (like those pesky parabens). I do think I have an extreme sensitivity to protein.

For right now I'm going to stick with the TRESemme and continue the hunt...it feeling soft and straight and detangled is definitely preferable to that straw-like matting I had! Keep me posted if you find anything you like without protein!
CG since 3/1/13
3B; Low porosity, Coarse, & Extremely Protein Sensitive
Very high density, waist length

Co wash: Suave Clarifying or Sun Ripened Strawberry
RO: Sun Ripened Strawberry, TN, or TN w/ veg glycerin
Sealer: apricot oil
Styler: 4 Naturals Spring Back Custard, Pantene Curl Defining Mousse, or BB "Mudd"
Using a hard water filter, microfiber towel, & silk head scarves & pillowcases

Avoiding: protein, coconut, & parabens
There's one ingredient that both Tresemme Naturals and Suave Coconut have high up in their ingredient lists, and it's this ingredient that I suspect is what makes my hair straighter after use either of these conditioners: stearamidopropyl dimethylamine (whew, that was a mouthful!). Somehow the effect isn't so pronounced when I use the Suave, however.

My hair loves coconut and it also loves protein, which apparently makes it a freak of nature, since coarse, low porosity hair isn't supposed to like these things (according to what I've heard on this site; other folks disagree with this).

I strongly recommend the Shea Cashmere, unless you are avoiding even minute amounts of protein. Works great as a co-wash, condish, or both! I don't use it as a leave-in, because my hair only likes very, very light leave-ins (I think this is due to the low-porosity).
Originally Posted by Hootenanny
You are a wealth of info! Thank you!! Stearamidopropyl dimethylamine...I'll put it on the list of things to avoid and check my products.

Crap, I didn't realize shea = protein. Yes, I have been trying to avoid it all, at least til I get a little more confident with what my annoyingly fussy hair likes and dislikes. Maybe I'll try it anyway for a buck. I'm thinking I might need to do the hair analysis before I go broke with all the new product purchases...I'm pretty confident in my type (I have hairdressers in the family) but something just doesn't seem to be clicking.

I'm headed to the point where I will only be using water!
Originally Posted by misbehave
stearamidopropyl dimethylamine is a very light conditioning ingredient commonly found in lightweight conditioners like TN and SN. It should mostly provide slip, it does not bond very strongly to hair, and should not weigh hair down, especially not coarse hair which usually needs MORE moisture. JMO, but I think you're over thinking this ingredient.

Truly coarse hair is coarse because each strand is comprised of more keratin - the protein that is hair itself - than fine hair. It is generally not a fan of protein because it already has so much and will almost always respond better to moisture. Especially coarse, LP hair - LP hair is hard to moisturize because the cuticle lays very tightly wrapped around the hair & doesn't easily let moisture or protein in so both will tend to sit on the hair and in the case of coarse hair that already has an abundance of protein, that could be disastrous. I'm really, really surprised coarse LP hair would respond well to protein. I know the OP is avoiding it but I saw it mentioned in the thread & wanted to throw my 2 cents in. I don't want to sound like I am questioning properties again, but having them right is so so SO important.

Shea butter is not a protein, it is an emollient. Emollients soften hair and help it retain moisture. Oils are also emollients.

Honestly what I would suggest is springing for a good, thick, moisturizing conditioner, like Curl Junkie Curl Rehab, or Biolage/GVP conditioning balm, check for "behentrimonium methosulfate or chloride" - both of which are heavy conditioners - slathering it on, covering your head with a shower cap, and either applying heat or letting it sit for 30 minutes or both. Coarse LP hair is very difficult to moisturize and yours sounds painfully dry. I wouldn't worry about curl pattern right now, I'd worry about the tangles & dryness & getting that fixed. On the off chance you OC your hair, that will be much easier to fix than having it too dry.
Originally Posted by lcl0706
Lcl,

I did look into the CJCR...I was avoiding that because of all the plant extracts, which I understand to contain protein. The Biolage/GVP both contain parabens, which I am also avoiding for health reasons, and it annoyingly complicates matters.

My hair doesn't feel dry. My hair only felt nasty and was tangled/matted after I used those certain products. The second I put the TRESemme as a RO in my hair, the straw-like feeling I had been getting - and had just gotten from my co wash - disappeared and it was then a dream to comb through. I don't have the straw-like feeling when my hair is dry, which is how I picture "painfully dry" hair. So I already consider my hair to be "fixed" from the issue I was having. Basically now, my new issue is finding a cowash/ro that won't leave my hair too limp. When fully dry, I actually had some nice curls underneath that looked perfect - not at all limp even with no product. Maybe I need to keep using it in case my hair is still "recovering" from the other stuff. And also experiment with the amount I am rinsing out/leaving in. It feels really nice, soft and springy. I am definitely making progress... slowly but surely!
CG since 3/1/13
3B; Low porosity, Coarse, & Extremely Protein Sensitive
Very high density, waist length

Co wash: Suave Clarifying or Sun Ripened Strawberry
RO: Sun Ripened Strawberry, TN, or TN w/ veg glycerin
Sealer: apricot oil
Styler: 4 Naturals Spring Back Custard, Pantene Curl Defining Mousse, or BB "Mudd"
Using a hard water filter, microfiber towel, & silk head scarves & pillowcases

Avoiding: protein, coconut, & parabens
Just be careful with the coconut oil containing products.....

Sent from my SPH-L710 using CurlTalk App
Originally Posted by MrsBachemin
I keep forgetting to ask you...what do you use? Our hair seems to hate the same stuff!
Originally Posted by misbehave
I'm using the Loreal Ever Sleek line and loving it for the most part. I do find the need to occasionally clarify my scalp though. I use the rinse out conditioner as a leave in (diluted in water), grapeseed oil to seal and Eco Styler gel to style. My hair also does well with the Suave Juicy Green Apple, but for me that one's better as a leave in or a co wash than a rinse out because it's so thin.



Sent from my SPH-L710 using CurlTalk App
Originally Posted by MrsBachemin
Thanks MrsB! What are your properties?
CG since 3/1/13
3B; Low porosity, Coarse, & Extremely Protein Sensitive
Very high density, waist length

Co wash: Suave Clarifying or Sun Ripened Strawberry
RO: Sun Ripened Strawberry, TN, or TN w/ veg glycerin
Sealer: apricot oil
Styler: 4 Naturals Spring Back Custard, Pantene Curl Defining Mousse, or BB "Mudd"
Using a hard water filter, microfiber towel, & silk head scarves & pillowcases

Avoiding: protein, coconut, & parabens
Got in the shower last night (after having no product on it) and as soon as my hair got wet it felt nasty again! Wth! Lcl, you're probably going to say it's dry...but why doesn't it feel dry when dry and only get that straw-like feeling when wet?? I put the TRESemme in as a co wash, mixed some glycerin in with some more TRESemme as a RO for moisture, rinsed it completely clean & then put a dab more TRESemme in for LI and it dried beautifully! Feels great, looks great (even without product). This doesn't make sense to me! Thoughts?
CG since 3/1/13
3B; Low porosity, Coarse, & Extremely Protein Sensitive
Very high density, waist length

Co wash: Suave Clarifying or Sun Ripened Strawberry
RO: Sun Ripened Strawberry, TN, or TN w/ veg glycerin
Sealer: apricot oil
Styler: 4 Naturals Spring Back Custard, Pantene Curl Defining Mousse, or BB "Mudd"
Using a hard water filter, microfiber towel, & silk head scarves & pillowcases

Avoiding: protein, coconut, & parabens
My hair has been doing the same lately, but feeling ok once dry. Does your skin feel nasty too or just your hair? It could be your water. Is it hard? My water is like liquid chalk and I think that contributes to it a lot.

Also, with it being LP, it could be repelling the water & causing it to feel matted. It sounds like its hard to get wet. Maybe try some conditioner on dry hair and then running it under water? Conditioners have wetting agents that could provide slip while washing. I might have missed this but are you poo-ing at all?

With hard water you might need to clarify 1x a week (or less, my hair is fine & thin and co-washing doesn't work for me). Look for shampoos & conditioners that contain triasodium or disodium EDTA ahead of the preservatives (usually the last ingredients). Suave Naturals shampoos have SLES which I find gentler than SLS (but you might find too harsh it's all individual) and also EDTA. If you want to keep co washing, some of the SN conditioners also have EDTA, the blue ones come to mind like ocean breeze and aloe. EDTA is chelating and will help clear mineral deposits if your water is hard. I don't know if the condish alone is enough to do it but its worth a shot.

ACV rinses help with hard water too.
fine, thin, normal/(low?) porosity. Mod-CG. Usually I can't co-wash more than 1x a week, & sometimes I have to use T-Gel in rotation due to scalp issues.

Co-wash: VO5 Volumizing
Poo: Giovanni 50:50
RO:TN, Nexxus Youth Renewal, Alba Coconut
LI: KCKT
PT: gelatin PT, ION EC
Stylers: Giovanni mousse, TIGI Curls Rock amplifier (a-cone), Curls Rock Strong Hold Mousse
Gels: SCC spray gel

My hair has been doing the same lately, but feeling ok once dry. Does your skin feel nasty too or just your hair? It could be your water. Is it hard? My water is like liquid chalk and I think that contributes to it a lot.

Also, with it being LP, it could be repelling the water & causing it to feel matted. It sounds like its hard to get wet. Maybe try some conditioner on dry hair and then running it under water? Conditioners have wetting agents that could provide slip while washing. I might have missed this but are you poo-ing at all?

With hard water you might need to clarify 1x a week (or less, my hair is fine & thin and co-washing doesn't work for me). Look for shampoos & conditioners that contain triasodium or disodium EDTA ahead of the preservatives (usually the last ingredients). Suave Naturals shampoos have SLES which I find gentler than SLS (but you might find too harsh it's all individual) and also EDTA. If you want to keep co washing, some of the SN conditioners also have EDTA, the blue ones come to mind like ocean breeze and aloe. EDTA is chelating and will help clear mineral deposits if your water is hard. I don't know if the condish alone is enough to do it but its worth a shot.

ACV rinses help with hard water too.
Originally Posted by lcl0706
I'm thinking/hoping you're on to something with hard water being the culprit. It's not so extreme that it jumps out at me (no sulphur smell, etc)...but it might lean towards hard and it's really getting down to having to be the water with everything I've tried and eliminated.

No, I'm not pooing, just the co washes. The clarification that's needed with hard water is because of minerals from the water build up on hair? I actually happen to have a SN Ocean Breeze that I haven't tried yet! Like you said, it's definitely worth a shot! I will try that, check the rest of my conditioners for the triasodium or disodium EDTAs, and go from there. I don't know if I have any low poo on hand, I don't think so but I also have ACV I could do a rinse with too.

Next on the list of things to try is hair analysis, shower head filter, and/or low pooing. Seriously I can't keep going like this, it's making me (and probably you all) coo coo bananas!

Thanks lcl!! Will let you know if this does the trick...
CG since 3/1/13
3B; Low porosity, Coarse, & Extremely Protein Sensitive
Very high density, waist length

Co wash: Suave Clarifying or Sun Ripened Strawberry
RO: Sun Ripened Strawberry, TN, or TN w/ veg glycerin
Sealer: apricot oil
Styler: 4 Naturals Spring Back Custard, Pantene Curl Defining Mousse, or BB "Mudd"
Using a hard water filter, microfiber towel, & silk head scarves & pillowcases

Avoiding: protein, coconut, & parabens
If you decide to do the ACV rinse, make sure you open the cuticle with baking soda. I mix a little baking soda with conditioner to accomplish this. My hair is also low porosity and ACV without baking soda first is a disaster!

Sent from my SPH-L710 using CurlTalk App

Last edited by MrsBachemin; 04-01-2013 at 04:47 PM.
Good point on the baking soda. Co wash with a bit mixed in & then ACV diluted in distilled or bottled water is usually least drying. And the bottled water prevents minerals being deposited during the rinse.

Yeah some hair loves hard water - fine hair sometimes needs a bit of mineral deposits, soft water can make it go limp. Too much mineral buildup can be a problem though.
fine, thin, normal/(low?) porosity. Mod-CG. Usually I can't co-wash more than 1x a week, & sometimes I have to use T-Gel in rotation due to scalp issues.

Co-wash: VO5 Volumizing
Poo: Giovanni 50:50
RO:TN, Nexxus Youth Renewal, Alba Coconut
LI: KCKT
PT: gelatin PT, ION EC
Stylers: Giovanni mousse, TIGI Curls Rock amplifier (a-cone), Curls Rock Strong Hold Mousse
Gels: SCC spray gel

Thanks Mrs. B & lcl!

I tried the Suave Ocean Breeze co wash, it didn't go so well. I'll try the baking soda mixed into my TRESemme and the ACV rinse next shower. Thanks for the how-to tips! Will rinsing it out be depositing more minerals? I also broke down last night and ordered a shower filter.
CG since 3/1/13
3B; Low porosity, Coarse, & Extremely Protein Sensitive
Very high density, waist length

Co wash: Suave Clarifying or Sun Ripened Strawberry
RO: Sun Ripened Strawberry, TN, or TN w/ veg glycerin
Sealer: apricot oil
Styler: 4 Naturals Spring Back Custard, Pantene Curl Defining Mousse, or BB "Mudd"
Using a hard water filter, microfiber towel, & silk head scarves & pillowcases

Avoiding: protein, coconut, & parabens
I also have coarse, protein-hating hair & am avoiding polyquats, so I've been here. We have hard water, too, so I understand that issue.

If you find polyquats leave your hair limp, you might do well also avoiding cationic surfectants. (behentrimonium methosulfate/chloride, stearalkonium chloride, etc..). They are chemically similar & can also leave the hair feeling coated, limp & flat. A lot of the Sauve Naturals contain these ingredients & the Tresseme Naturals does, too.

When my hair had the same problems you mentioned, I decided to stop using any ingredient ending in "ium" (ie, all polyquats & cationics) & within a week it was back to normal. Gentle low-poos with anionic (decyl glucoside) or zwitterionic surfectants (coco betaine) should get the remaining cationic residue off your hair.

I recently "fell off the wagon" with cationics & tried using Suave Naturals again. My experiment lasted precisely one wash. My hair was disgusting. I will never go back to them.

It is very hard to find protein-free conditioners without cationics & polyquats, especially on the ground/at the drugstore.

My two favorite conditioners (protein free, 'cone free, polyquat/cationic free) right now are Karen's Body Beautiful Luscious Locks (online & at some Target stores) & Marie Dean Simply Conditioner (online/Etsy). Both leave my hair feeling moisturized, but not weighted down. The Marie Dean one is probably the best conditioner I have tried since going CG last summer.

You might also check ingredient labels for any other "hidden" protein analogues besides coconut (sea kelp, hops/yeast, etc...). Some protein-sensitive folks are also bothered by avocado oil, jojoba oil & aloe vera (though not aloe juice). I am okay with those, but hate regular aloe, kelp, algae, hops, and most fruit extracts.

Finding the right products is very frustrating with so many restrictions & it takes all the fun out of the hunt, since most experiments don't work well. I'm not sure how long you have had your water filter (maybe I missed that), but it took a few weeks before my hair saw serious results from it. I also found a chelating low-poo with EDTA, as mentioned above & rotated it into my routine for a while.

I also do a "co-poo" instead of a strict co-wash (mixing a low-poo with conditioner, then applying them together) & found it helps clean & prevent dryness better than doing either alone, but as always, YMMV.

Best of luck in your search! I hope you find the right combo soon.

.

Last edited by LadyPlymdale; 03-23-2013 at 01:14 AM.
I also have coarse, protein-hating hair & am avoiding polyquats, so I've been here. We have hard water, too, so I understand that issue.

If you find polyquats leave your hair limp, you might do well also avoiding cationic surfectants. (behentrimonium methosulfate/chloride, stearalkonium chloride, etc..). They are chemically similar & can also leave the hair feeling coated, limp & flat. A lot of the Sauve Naturals contain these ingredients & the Tresseme Naturals does, too.

When my hair had the same problems you mentioned, I decided to stop using any ingredient ending in "ium" (ie, all polyquats & cationics) & within a week it was back to normal. Gentle low-poos with anionic (decyl glucoside) or zwitterionic surfectants (coco betaine) should get the remaining cationic residue off your hair.

I recently "fell off the wagon" with cationics & tried using Suave Naturals again. My experiment lasted precisely one wash. My hair was disgusting. I will never go back to them.

It is very hard to find protein-free conditioners without cationics & polyquats, especially on the ground/at the drugstore.

My two favorite conditioners (protein free, 'cone free, polyquat/cationic free) right now are Karen's Body Beautiful Luscious Locks (online & at some Target stores) & Marie Dean Simply Conditioner (online/Etsy). Both leave my hair feeling moisturized, but not weighted down. The Marie Dean one is probably the best conditioner I have tried since going CG last summer.

You might also check ingredient labels for any other "hidden" protein analogues besides coconut (sea kelp, hops/yeast, etc...). Some protein-sensitive folks are also bothered by avocado oil, jojoba oil & aloe vera (though not aloe juice). I am okay with those, but hate regular aloe, kelp, algae, hops, and most fruit extracts.

Finding the right products is very frustrating with so many restrictions & it takes all the fun out of the hunt, since most experiments don't work well. I'm not sure how long you have had your water filter (maybe I missed that), but it took a few weeks before my hair saw serious results from it. I also found a chelating low-poo with EDTA, as mentioned above & rotated it into my routine for a while.

I also do a "co-poo" instead of a strict co-wash (mixing a low-poo with conditioner, then applying them together) & found it helps clean & prevent dryness better than doing either alone, but as always, YMMV.

Best of luck in your search! I hope you find the right combo soon.

.
Originally Posted by LadyPlymdale
Thanks for all that info, LadyPlymdale!

I didn't know about the cationic surfectants. I just ordered a sample of the MDSC you recommended. Thanks! Found a coupon on Facebook too.

When you stop using products with "quats" and "iums" and protein... what is left?? Is it just the "ium chlorides" that should be avoided or all "iums"? May I ask what other products you use(d)? Were their any other less expensive conditioners you found? I don't mind ordering online. I have A LOT of hair and go through products quickly and probably won't be able keep up the $25 products regularly. Well, until I sell everything in my figuring-it-out cupboard!

I've been trying to keep an eye out for the hidden protein but I think I'm still too new to this to pick out what specifically my hair hates, since so far it has hated everything. Maybe it will be easier once I eliminate the "iums". Positive thinking!

I just ordered the water filter, should be getting it on Monday. I hope that helps. I will try to remember it took you a few weeks to adjust. What was the chelating low-poo with EDTA you used? I saw Giovanni TTTT shampoo but it has extracts (which I'm really not sure if I'm sensitive to or not). I hadn't heard of a co-poo! Makes sense for preventing dryness. Thanks for letting me know about that.

Thank you so much again. This forum has been so helpful!

Misbehave

p.s. You write beautifully!
CG since 3/1/13
3B; Low porosity, Coarse, & Extremely Protein Sensitive
Very high density, waist length

Co wash: Suave Clarifying or Sun Ripened Strawberry
RO: Sun Ripened Strawberry, TN, or TN w/ veg glycerin
Sealer: apricot oil
Styler: 4 Naturals Spring Back Custard, Pantene Curl Defining Mousse, or BB "Mudd"
Using a hard water filter, microfiber towel, & silk head scarves & pillowcases

Avoiding: protein, coconut, & parabens

Last edited by misbehave; 03-23-2013 at 04:38 PM.
Thank you so much for the compliment!

I've always wanted to write for a beauty blog, but never end up doing it, lol.

I think I used the Giovanni 'poo you mentioned (TTTT) & California Baby Swimmers Defense to get the minerals out of my hair. I wasn't thinking about protein sensitivity at the time, so those may have problematic extracts. I also did a Malibu treatment (packet of chelating gel, left on for 30 mins) at the salon. I remember my hair wasn't great during this phase (dry, frizzy), but it was looking less brassy, so I was okay with the results.

As for the "iums", I religiously avoid everything but sodium lactate, since it is a salt & not a cationic or a quaternary compound (although those can both be made with salts). I don't use anything regularly containing sodium chloride (table salt, sea salt), because it's harsh & drying. I also avoid guar gum (or anything with guar), since it acts similarity to cationics/quats & can build up the same way. Lots of natural brands use guar as a thickener, so carefully reading labels is a must.

Eliminating the "iums" completely took care the coated, limp issue for me, so fingers crossed it does the same for you. Figuring out which protein analogs I couldn't use was what started fixing the dry & frizzy, although that process was expensive, frustrating trial & error.

I think I went back to Giovanni products three or four times, before realizing my hair hates fruit extracts & any protein that is not silk or keratin (and those only in minute doses). Shea Moisture's Moisture Retention line taught me I can't handle sea kelp, but not before blowing $50 on all of the items.

For a long while I was using Aubrey Organics Honeysuckle Rose & Aubrey Organics White Camellia conditioners ('cone & cationic/polyquat free, with no direct proteins), but stopped once I realized the hops they both contain was exacerbating my problems. If hops doesn't bother you, those are very good conditioners to try, since they only cost $10 each (approx.). For me, hops wasn't an immediate ticket to frizzy & shapeless, like kelp or coconut, but the effects were cumulative. The more I used AO, the worse my hair got & it improved once I rotated those conditioners out of my routine.

I have not yet found cheaper alternatives to the Marie Dean Simply Conditioner or KBB Luscious Locs, although I would love to. I have long, thick hair & can go through half of an tub of the MD in a week! When I need to stretch them out, I blend in KBB Complete Conditioner (protein, 'cone & polyquat/cationic free), which is alright, but rather lackluster & not moisturizing enough on its own.

I actually conducted my recent "return to cationics" experiment because I wanted to find something under $10 a bottle. Obviously, that didn't go as planned.

I hope the Marie Dean works well for you. It has avocado & jojoba oils, which bother some protein-sensitive folks, but are fine on my hair. I think the quality/purity of the ingredients & percentages/ratios of everything in the blend may have an impact, too. I didn't start my CG journey as a boutique brand aficionado, but I've rapidly become one.

I'll be putting all my lost causes (Shea Moisture, Aubrey Organic, Giovanni, etc...) up for sale soon, too, with the proceeds going directly back into my ludicrous $25/bottle conditioner habit. Sigh...

Lady Plymdale


2C/3A--med-coarse, slightly porous (highlighted), very dry & protein sensitive

No-Poo: Naturally Amari Berry No-Poo (w/o Aloe & Horsetail)

Condition: Suave Daily Clarifying & Sun-Ripened Strawberry

Stylers: 4Naturals Spring Back, L'oreal Everstyle Curl Defining Gel

Avoiding: sulfates, ‘cones, parabens, polyquats/cationics (except stearamidopropyl dimethylamine), most proteins/extracts.

Last edited by LadyPlymdale; 03-25-2013 at 02:56 AM.
Thank you so much for the compliment!

I've always wanted to write for a beauty blog, but never end up doing it, lol.

I think I used the Giovanni 'poo you mentioned (TTTT) & California Baby Swimmers Defense to get the minerals out of my hair. I wasn't thinking about protein sensitivity at the time, so those may have problematic extracts. I also did a Malibu treatment (packet of chelating gel, left on for 30 mins) at the salon. I remember my hair wasn't great during this phase (dry, frizzy), but it was looking less brassy, so I was okay with the results.

As for the "iums", I religiously avoid everything but sodium lactate, since it is a salt & not a cationic or a quaternary compound (although those can both be made with salts). I don't use anything regularly containing sodium chloride (table salt, sea salt), because it's harsh & drying. I also avoid guar gum (or anything with guar), since it acts similarity to cationics/quats & can build up the same way. Lots of natural brands use guar as a thickener, so carefully reading labels is a must.

Eliminating the "iums" completely took care the coated, limp issue for me, so fingers crossed it does the same for you. Figuring out which protein analogs I couldn't use was what started fixing the dry & frizzy, although that process was expensive, frustrating trial & error.

I think I went back to Giovanni products three or four times, before realizing my hair hates fruit extracts & any protein that is not silk or keratin (and those only in minute doses). Shea Moisture's Moisture Retention line taught me I can't handle sea kelp, but not before blowing $50 on all of the items.

For a long while I was using Aubrey Organics Honeysuckle Rose & Aubrey Organics White Camellia conditioners ('cone & cationic/polyquat free, with no direct proteins), but stopped once I realized the hops they both contain was exacerbating my problems. If hops doesn't bother you, those are very good conditioners to try, since they only cost $10 each (approx.). For me, hops wasn't an immediate ticket to frizzy & shapeless, like kelp or coconut, but the effects were cumulative. The more I used AO, the worse my hair got & it improved once I rotated those conditioners out of my routine.

I have not yet found cheaper alternatives to the Marie Dean Simply Conditioner or KBB Luscious Locs, although I would love to. I have long, thick hair & can go through half of an tub of the MD in a week! When I need to stretch them out, I blend in KBB Complete Conditioner (protein, 'cone & polyquat/cationic free), which is alright, but rather lackluster & not moisturizing enough on its own.

I actually conducted my recent "return to cationics" experiment because I wanted to find something under $10 a bottle. Obviously, that didn't go as planned.

I hope the Marie Dean works well for you. It has avocado & jojoba oils, which bother some protein-sensitive folks, but are fine on my hair. I think the quality/purity of the ingredients & percentages/ratios of everything in the blend may have an impact, too. I didn't start my CG journey as a boutique brand aficionado, but I've rapidly become one.

I'll be putting all my lost causes (Shea Moisture, Aubrey Organic, Giovanni, etc...) up for sale soon, too, with the proceeds going directly back into my ludicrous $25/bottle conditioner habit. Sigh...

Lady Plymdale
Originally Posted by LadyPlymdale
You're welcome! You should do it, I'd read your beauty blog.

I guess it probably doesn't matter if I can't find a chelating poo w/o protein since I'll only be using it short term to get the hard water minerals out. I just realized I have the Giovanni TTTT conditioner (not poo)...which has the EDTA anyway. So, I'm going to try that to chelate.

So you're avoiding sodium chloride, guar gum (or anything with guar), and all "iums" but sodium lactate. How did you figure all this out?? By researching every ingredient? I'm wondering if something like the Curly Girl Handbook has explanations of each hair product ingredient but I don't know that I could keep it all straight or figure it out that way anyway.

I suspect I too will have to go about figuring out proteins by trial and error. For some reason I was thinking plant extracts were worse than fruit extracts but looks like you don't like those either. It stands to reason that I might not too. Were you feeling this lost when you started out? I'm gritting my teeth because a month in and this process has already been an expensive and frustrating trial & error nightmare. Coming from using Pantene (pre-CG), I never imagined "cheap" would end up being around $10/bottle. And I surely never imagined spending $25!

You truly are my twin going through half a tub of conditioner a week! The first time I saw posts here where people were celebrating finishing something I was like, "whaaaaaaa?"

Thanks for taking the time to tell me which products you've tried, your experience with them and what's working for you now. And I see you've done a sig too. Which is good because now I don't have to bug you about which styling products you're using!

I should be okay with aloe and avocado since that's what's in the TRESemme and it feels good while in my hair. With some of the other protein/coconut containing products I'd notice the straw feeling before I even finished putting it in. I don't know if that's sensible logic or not. But it is probable that I'll like the MD since it costs so much!

I want to put my lost causes up for sale too (to fund the rest of my research!) but I keep thinking, what if I end up being able to use them once I fix the hard water or once I determine which proteins I don't like? Sigh. This is so new to me. I had gotten to a point in my life where I didn't need to "fuss" with my hair much anymore, and would just throw in some product and go. But I hope it will all be worth it. I have visions of shiny CG hair like the curlies here and a Deva cut "reward" in mind for motivation.

Thanks again, Lady P! Let me know if you ever do that blog.
CG since 3/1/13
3B; Low porosity, Coarse, & Extremely Protein Sensitive
Very high density, waist length

Co wash: Suave Clarifying or Sun Ripened Strawberry
RO: Sun Ripened Strawberry, TN, or TN w/ veg glycerin
Sealer: apricot oil
Styler: 4 Naturals Spring Back Custard, Pantene Curl Defining Mousse, or BB "Mudd"
Using a hard water filter, microfiber towel, & silk head scarves & pillowcases

Avoiding: protein, coconut, & parabens

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